[SETUP] Friends and Enemies and a Lonely Townie

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[SETUP] Friends and Enemies and a Lonely Townie

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:27 am

Post by Skygazer »

a 7p setup:

3 Masons
1 Lonely Townie
3 Goons

daytalk
a short N0 phase occurs where the goons decide
whether or not
to out themselves as the mason counterclaim


if they decide to out themselves
, two things occur:
the two competing groups will be outed at the start of day 1 and the VT is confirmed town
the lonely townie may bring in any player not in the game into a private thread discuss reads nd stuff (in the vein of the public surveyor from nsg's newsroom, except the player brought in wins with town if they accept the invite)

something along the lines of this will be posted at the start of D1
group a
[player]
[player]
[player]

group b
[player]
[player]
[player]

[lonely townie] is confirmed town and has brought [player] in to a PT
if a mason is lynched, town lose, if a goon is lynched, town wins (50% win rate)

if they decide to not out themselves
, the following occurs
the masons are publicly confirmed as masons
if town lynches the lonely townie they lose
if town lynches two goons, a white flag mechanic goes into place and town wins, endgaming the third goon
masons have a 75% chance of lynching scum the first day and a 66.66% chance of lynching scum the second day, leading to another 50% winrate
Last edited by Skygazer on Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:32 am

Post by Skygazer »

this would make for kind of a short game but i really like the private communication mechanic between the confirmed townies (either the masons or the lonely townie and their partner) to facilitate gamesolving

this was partially stolen from RC but i can't remember from where, with a role stolen from nsg's newsroom as well
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:40 am

Post by Skygazer »

if the two competing groups option is selected, scum don't really have to worry about associatives but have to worry a lot about a potential wildcard 8th player

if the masons are conftown, scum has to worry a bit more about associatives
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:51 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

/in as lone townie
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:56 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

As scum I would feel more confident about option 1 but would enjoy option 2 more
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:56 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Anyway I’m a fan
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:29 am

Post by popsofctown »

I think it seems cool, but it seems like since outing or not is a N0 decision eventually the meta would shift to picking one or the other every single time? But both outcomes seem like quite a game.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:54 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I think the aim is to balance the two subsetups so closely that which option is better for scum will depend on the gamestate.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:57 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

I mean I would definitely have a different pick as scum depending on my scumteam and the town I was up against
Which is what then becomes part of the game’s WIFOM
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:00 am

Post by Skygazer »

+1 to both of those

theyre both technically even in terms of ev i think

basically where i'm at right now is im not feeling great about the fact that in some iterations its literally up to just one vote for a win but it seems like it'd make for a fun marathon/blitz game
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:01 am

Post by Skygazer »

ye theyre both even in terms of ev, i feel like the playerlist/scum team matters a ton in the decision
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:18 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Thinking about it, the "lonely townie with a friend" subsetup isn't really Mafia, is it? The situation is 100% symmetrical between the Masons and the scum, and in particular the scum have no more information than the Masons do, so there's no informed minority.

In general, scumhunting in this sort of symmetrical setup is almost impossible because there's no reason why scum would play any differently from the Masons.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:23 am

Post by popsofctown »

Whoops
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:58 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 11, callforjudgement wrote:Thinking about it, the "lonely townie with a friend" subsetup isn't really Mafia, is it? The situation is 100% symmetrical between the Masons and the scum, and in particular the scum have no more information than the Masons do, so there's no informed minority.

In general, scumhunting in this sort of symmetrical setup is almost impossible because there's no reason why scum would play any differently from the Masons.
The information is that scum chose that subsetup
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:58 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Or, the information scum has is *why scum chose that subsetup*
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:45 am

Post by popsofctown »

Yeah but the masons know why they /in'ed for the game.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:12 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 11, callforjudgement wrote:In general, scumhunting in this sort of symmetrical setup is almost impossible because there's no reason why scum would play any differently from the Masons.
Most scumhubting isn't based off of informed vs uninformed though
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:57 pm

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 16, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 11, callforjudgement wrote:In general, scumhunting in this sort of symmetrical setup is almost impossible because there's no reason why scum would play any differently from the Masons.
Most scumhubting isn't based off of informed vs uninformed though
No, but I have to agree with cfj.
If scum chooses to emulate masons the following happens:
-there are two groups of equal size who know each other's alignments and know the opponent's alignments
-One group tries to convince the IC to do something that will make the IC lose, the other one to do something that will make the IC win.
-Each Mason and each mafia is trying to survive because being lynched is the end for their team; thus both teams are trying to look as towny as possible.
-Each Mason and each mafia is trying to defend their teammates.
The only difference is 2, and trying to read THAT can be impossible with experienced players present.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 am

Post by BNL »

To eliminate the unfun symmetrical play between scum and the masons, how about the following:

Each player starts out as a Mafia Goon or a Vanilla Townie. There is a short discussion phase with no eliminations, then there is a Night where three townies are selected to be Masons, and scum will choose during this phase whether or not to counterclaim the masons.

I'd also recommend that the Mafia Goons are informed of who the Masons are in this case, which makes for more strategic play. It's even plausible for the Mafia to pick who the masons are, but that may be too much manipulation.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 18, BNL wrote:To eliminate the unfun symmetrical play between scum and the masons, how about the following:

Each player starts out as a Mafia Goon or a Vanilla Townie. There is a short discussion phase with no eliminations, then there is a Night where three townies are selected to be Masons, and scum will choose during this phase whether or not to counterclaim the masons.

I'd also recommend that the Mafia Goons are informed of who the Masons are in this case, which makes for more strategic play. It's even plausible for the Mafia to pick who the masons are, but that may be too much manipulation.
I was thinking of something like this!

My idea:
-Add a vt

-Have a normal D1 with no masons.
-->If a townie gets lynched, the setup Skygazer described happens. Scum make a decision and things play out.
-->If a scum gets lynched, scum get to perform a nightkill. Then two townies are given a masonry and allowed to choose if they want to sort the remaining players in a nightless game as mod-confirmed masons or if they want to 2v2 the remaining scum (without yet knowing who those scum are, obviously).

All four possible D2s have a 50% EV.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:51 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 19, Irrelephant11 wrote:All four possible D2s have a 50% EV.
No, they don't. 2ICvs 1 town +2 scum has just... 33% town win chance.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:53 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

It would be two masons, two vts, two goons. Maybe you missed this?
In post 19, Irrelephant11 wrote:-Add a vt
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:41 am

Post by callforjudgement »

If all the D2s have the same EV, what incentive does scum have to not get lynched / town have to lynch scum?

Without any incentive to play a particular way, all the players will be indistinguishable. (Most likely, what you'll get is a policy lynch.)
scum
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town
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

If town is lynched, scum get to pick their preferred D2. If scum is lynched, town make the decision
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Oh, clever.

Congratulations on making a setup that completely breaks EV theory :-)
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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