[CHALLENGE] July Challenge

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:53 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 55, Ircher wrote:
The Four Seasons

9x Vanilla Townie
1x Town 1-Shot Seasonal Sensor
3x Mafia Goon

During a special pregame/Dawn phase (after everyone has received alignment; mafia can chat during this phase), players privately choose one of the four seasons: winter, spring, summer, or autumn. Players that do not pick in a timely manner are automatically assigned to Winter.

Once the Dawn phase ends, players become neighbors with players that chose the same season as them. Who is in what neighborhood is not publicly revealed. The game then continues like a normal game.

Once per game, the Seasonal Sensor can choose a season. They will learn how many scum-aligned players (both living and dead) are in that season's neighborhood.
This is swingy.
Sensor dies Night 1-> no more town power, except distribution.
Sensor looks at a 7-town Neighborhood N1 -> GG
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:30 am

Post by chennisden »

Let Mafia assign the neighborhoods pregame.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:34 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 67, Cinnamon wrote:
Group Investigation
13 Players
(not entirely sure what playercount this would work best at)

10 Vanilla Town

3 Mafia Goons


This is a mountainous game with one twist. Each night, if there is a lynch, all players that voted for the lynch are put into a neighborhood and all players that did not vote for the lynch are put into a separate neighborhood.

Each player then submits a name (privately by PM) of a player they wish to investigate, and may choose themselves.

If all players in a neighborhood chose the same player, the alignment of that player is revealed in that neighborhood at the start of the day. If town, that player is protected from night kills both that night and the following night. All neighborhoods are only for that night and are locked upon the start of the day.

This effect lasts until there is only one mafia goon left, at which point the game returns to regular mountainous.

Thought it would be fun to do one of these, let me know how it looks. Not positive this ratio is best for balance.
In addition to NK15's strategy, each neighborhood should decide on an investigation target. If it fails you know your hood has mafia and if it succeeds... well, that's self explanatory.

I suggest removing the "that player is protected from night kills" provision.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:36 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 76, chennisden wrote:Let Mafia assign the neighborhoods pregame.
0:0:0:13 is broken for scum.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:15 am

Post by Ircher »

The Four Seasons
v2.0.0.0
8x Vanilla Townie
1x Town Season Cop
1x Town Season Doctor
3x Mafia Goon

During a special pregame/Dawn phase (after everyone has received alignment; mafia can chat during this phase), players privately choose one of the four seasons: winter, spring, summer, or autumn. Players that do not pick in a timely manner are automatically assigned to Winter.

Once the Dawn phase ends, players become neighbors with players that chose the same season as them. Who is in what neighborhood is not publicly revealed. The game then continues like a normal game.

Each night, the Season Cop may investigate a player to learn which seasonal neighborhood that player is in.

Each night, the Season Doctor must choose a season and a player. If the targeted player is located in the provided seasonal neighborhood, the targeted player is protected from a single kill.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 79, Ircher wrote:
The Four Seasons
v2.0.0.0
8x Vanilla Townie
1x Town Season Cop
1x Town Season Doctor
3x Mafia Goon

During a special pregame/Dawn phase (after everyone has received alignment; mafia can chat during this phase), players privately choose one of the four seasons: winter, spring, summer, or autumn. Players that do not pick in a timely manner are automatically assigned to Winter.

Once the Dawn phase ends, players become neighbors with players that chose the same season as them. Who is in what neighborhood is not publicly revealed. The game then continues like a normal game.

Each night, the Season Cop may investigate a player to learn which seasonal neighborhood that player is in.

Each night, the Season Doctor must choose a season and a player. If the targeted player is located in the provided seasonal neighborhood, the targeted player is protected from a single kill.
D1 Neighborhood massclaim. There is no good reason for town to keep silent about their neighborhoods.
There is no reason for Mafia to fakeclaim their neighborhood. The Season Cop is a named townie. Thus, they immediately claim Day 1 to give town a potentially protected confirmed town. Is this really better?
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:56 am

Post by Ircher »

It isn't as swingy. Scum can just shoot elsewhere; town could use an IC in the updated setup.

Tracker + Doc + 5 VTs versus 2 Goons was balanced in Matrix6 days granted the fact that Matrix6 was semi-open. Town is weaker here than in that setup.

Sure, you may get someone like RadiantCowbells as IC, but scum just have to work around that. They shouldn't always be anle to freely kill their opposition.

That said, if you have a better suggestion that fits the theme, I'm all ears.

Edit: I mean, I'd prefer the sensor, but it's hard to counteract its swinginess. The power roles are to balance out the setup. The neighborhoods are supposed to be the fun part.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:17 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I think you're confusing 7:2 with 10:3? Town has less power here than they do in a balanced 7:2 setup, and a 10:3 needs much more town power to balance it than a 7:2 does.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Post by chennisden »

Is it balanced? Yes

But the central mechanic is pointless
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:05 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

hey rc why does making the split start of d2 better
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:26 pm

Post by Carl Tuckerson »

Dance Party Mafia


It's another summer of love down in sunny California. Daytime work and chores give way to night after night of dancing, drinking, and good times for the newly-graduated Class of 2019. This summer promises many flings, crazy nights, and memories - as long as your parents don't find out! And as if sneaking out of the house weren't hard enough, I hear there's some real squares trying to get the party shut down. . .


Factions:
Cool Kids (town) vs Squares (mafia)

Cool Kids win when all Squares have been kicked out of the party, or nothing can prevent this from happening.
Squares win when all Cool Kids have been ratted out, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

MECHANIC: Dance Partners


At the start of the game, players will be paired off as dance partners by the mod. Two Squares will never be paired up; that's just not cool. Cool Kids can be paired with other Cool Kids or Squares. Dance partners will always be public knowledge--you're gonna be dancing together after all. At the appropriate times, you and your dance partner will be able to talk in private. If your dance partner is kicked out of the party or ratted out by the Squares, you may still converse with them at the appropriate times.
Accordingly, no dancer kicked/ratted out of the party should be given access to any private discussion topics pertaining to the game until his or her partner is also kicked/ratted out, at which point either may be given the topic at mod's discretion.
Squares will have their own group talk separate from their partner chat.

Game Schedule and MECHANIC: Dance Prep


Days and nights are reversed in this game. The game starts on Night 0. [NOTE: This is strictly for flavor purposes.]
During night phases, dancers may talk in the game thread and vote to kick someone out of the party. Night phases are six days long, instead of the normal seven.
During day phases, dancers with special roles will submit their actions to the mod, and dancers may chat with their partners as they please. Day phases are two days long, as normal.
At the end of the day, before the night starts, dancers will take an intermediate step called Dance Prep. The day actions will resolve and the results will be announced. Dancers may chat with their partners as they please during Dance Prep. The thread is
NOT
open during this step. Dance Prep is one day long.
After Dance Prep, it's dance time! Dancers proceed to the venue and a new night begins.

SETUP QUICK 'N' DIRTY


For 12 players:
Cool Kids (9): Seven (7) Cool Kids, One (1) Bouncer, One (1) Wink
Squares (3): Three (3) Squares

For 20 players:
Cool Kids (14): Ten (10) Cool Kids, One (1) Bouncer, One (1) Wink, One (1) Cupid, One (1) Doc
Squares (6): Six (6) Squares

ROLES


The following roles
will
be in this game.


Cool Kid -- A regular Cool Kid with no special abilities. Dancers vote for someone to be kicked from the party every night and may converse with their partners during days and Dance Prep.

Square -- A regular Square. Squares vote for someone to be kicked from the party every night and may converse with their partners during days and Dance Prep. Additionally, Squares know who the other Squares are, and may converse with the other Squares during days and Dance Prep. Squares also collectively vote to rat out one of the Cool Kids each day. [NOTE: Ratting out a Cool Kid is a factional action; Squares don't have to select an individual Square to do the ratting out. Squares ride or die together, which is ironic, considering they're all ratting out everyone else.]

Chad "Bouncer" Radkowski -- A Cool Kid who played linebacker for the football team. Charming and very strong, if the Bouncer wants you out, you're done. The Bouncer can unilaterally kick another Dancer out of the party during the day. But because the Bouncer is a Cool Kid who wants everybody to get along, and feels like a father figure to the other Dancers since he took three more years to graduate than they did, the Bouncer limits himself to one eviction. Just know that if he weren't so cool, every last one of you Squares would be thrown out already. Bouncer is Wink's boyfriend, and begins the game partnered with Wink. [NOTE: Bouncer and Wink must be in the game together if they are in the game at all.]

Bernawinke "Wink" Reissmann -- A Cool Kid from Switzerland who led the cheerleading squad. Wink's a pretty little thing, and she knows it. She's the Bouncer's girlfriend, but that doesn't mean she can't talk to other people... During the day, Wink may choose a new dance partner. If she does, then at the start of Dance Prep, she will become that dancer's new partner. The dancer's old partner will pair up with her old partner. The two new pairs of partners will be able to talk during Dance Prep. If the Squares rat out the dancer that Wink chose as a new partner, then Wink's switch will fail and she will remain with her current partner. As mentioned before, Wink is Bouncer's girlfriend, and begins the game partnered with Bouncer. [NOTE: Bouncer and Wink must be in the game together if they are in the game at all.]

The following roles
may
be in this game, contingent upon game size.


Cooper "Cupid" Jackson -- A Cool Kid who became notorious in the Class of 2019 for winning homecoming king all four years, with a different date each time. Cupid is a matchmaker par excellence. Once per game during the day, Cupid can choose a dancer who doesn't currently have a partner. If he does, then at the start of Dance Prep, that dancer will become Cupid's partner. But because Cupid is such a charmer, his original partner won't leave; the three of them will dance the night away. For the rest of the game, all three dancers will be partnered together, and will be able to talk during the day and during Dance Prep. If the Squares rat out the dancer that Cupid chose as a new partner, then Cupid's arrow will be refunded.

Nick "Doc" Holliday -- A Cool Kid on his way to Stanford's illustrious pre-med program, Doc is a selfless guy who would do anything for his friends. At the end of the day, before day actions resolve, Doc will be told which dancer, if anybody, will be ratted out that day. He then may choose to "fess up" and be ratted out in that dancer's stead. If he chooses to confess, then the mod will announce when resolving day actions that Doc was ratted out. Owing to the nature of this ability, it can only be used once. [NOTE: The original target to be ratted out will not be announced; effectively Doc is redirecting the Squares' ratting out to himself.]

Balance Considerations


Spoiler: Previous Discussion
This game needs an even number of players. Even the squarest of Squares needs somebody to love...
This setup is inherently very townsided compared to normal mafia games for a few reasons;
- Lots of gossiping in private, hurting mafia's information advantage
- There is an effective clearing mechanic--because Squares cannot be paired up to start the game, lynching a Square automatically confirms his or her partner as a Cool Kid.
- There are no mafia power roles, and two town roles (Wink and Cupid) can mechanically confirm themselves, the former of which mechanically confirms Chad as well
Accordingly, it's recommended that there be a higher percentage of mafia than normal. I can't make an exact recommendation and would leave that up to more experienced setup balancers, but the mechanics in this setup are somewhat prone to snowballing, so keep that in mind.

As a spitball for starting numbers I would say 13:7 town:mafia in a 20p game if using the full power role suite, 14:6 if only using Wink/Chad and 15:5 if using none. Again, leaving this up to people who know balancing better than me to figure out.


EDIT: To be clear, the roles are confirmed and known at game start. I wanted to give the GM some options for tuning the setup since the neighbor-heavy nature of the game makes for weird balancing (imo). This is an open setup with GM discretion on which roles to use; the roles will be known.
[EDIT of EDIT: This has been resolved.]

EDIT 2: Balance considerations revised after discussion below. Setups for 12 and for 20 players are included near the top. Spoiler contains original comments.
Last edited by Carl Tuckerson on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:13 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

All those power roles are effectively Innocent Children with no other mechanical advantages (there may be some communicative advantages), other than the vig (who gets to shift the game off evens). The "not scum together" indications are useful, but probably less powerful than you're expecting (e.g. Scumteam Unpick has four times as many disqualified scumpairs per player, and even then it needed the double D1). So the setup basically just comes down to a combination of "claim to clear yourself" and the information from the forbidden pairings (plus the vig shot).

I agree that that's quite a bit of town power, but I think you're underestimating just how scumsided 13:7 is: town can make only three mistakes (whether that's a mislynch or a misvig). Killing within a town/town pairing is a mistake, as is getting the wrong
member
of a pairing; so there are 7 "correct" lynch options and 9 mistakes. Finding all 7 correct options before making 4 mistakes is going to be close to impossible at those numbers.

At a more normal game size (I'm not that experienced with balancing Larges), I'm guessing that something like 9:3 would work with just the first two power roles on the list.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Post by Carl Tuckerson »

Good analysis and great points. I hadn't worked out the mistakes allowed and I agree with your conclusion, after seeing them, that 13:7 is too much.

14:6 gives you 5 mistakes and 6 mafia. I think that ratio checks out.

And a smaller game needs fewer power roles anyway, so I can buy that 12p has just Bouncer/Wink and a 9:3 ratio.

I'll edit into the post. Thanks callforjudgment.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:21 am

Post by popsofctown »

Safe to Split Push mafia

10
Vanilla Townies
3
Mafia Goons
1 Shared power

This game autojanitors all flips and has a factional NK.
Any day starting with day 2, the town may collectively decide to activate their "Split Push" power. On activation, if there are 3 Mafia Goons alive, the town immediately loses. If there are 1 or 2 Mafia Goons alive, instead all deceased players flip, and for the rest of the game no flips are janitored and the game is nightless.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:34 am

Post by geometry »

make sure ICs don't get ICed, Carl

ICs are no fun
I signed up to play
MAFIA
, not so you could roll me town again.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:15 am

Post by popsofctown »

String of Disappearances Mafia

8 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons

On Day One, the town may give up to one player Night 1 Bulletproof. There isn't a lynch day 1.
Night One, the mafia can neither no-kill nor target the bulletproof player.
On the verge of the nightkill victim's death, that mod has that player investigate another player, then vig another player (this can be compressed into one PM with an if X then Y statement).
If the vig victim is mafia aligned, this is over, but if the vig victim is town-aligned, this chain repeats indefinitely.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:37 am

Post by Carl Tuckerson »

In post 89, geometry wrote:make sure ICs don't get ICed, Carl

ICs are no fun
Must be the newbie in me--what does ICed mean?
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:25 am

Post by popsofctown »

Innocent Child
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:54 pm

Post by Carl Tuckerson »

In post 92, popsofctown wrote:Innocent Child
I don't get the verb form of that. I got what IC was but not "ICed"
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Post by Ircher »

The Four Seasons
v3.0.0.0
10x Vanilla Townie
3x Mafia Goon

During a special pregame/Dawn phase (after everyone has received alignment; mafia can chat during this phase), players privately choose one of the four seasons: winter, spring, summer, or autumn. Players that do not pick in a timely manner are automatically assigned to Winter.

Once the Dawn phase ends, players become neighbors with players that chose the same season as them. Who is in what neighborhood is not publicly revealed. The game then continues like a normal game.

During Day 1 OR Day 2, the town may publicly vote to use a seasonal sensor ability on a particular seasonal neighborhood. This ability causes the number of scum (at the beginning of Day 1) in that neighborhood to be revealed. A simple majority of votes for a particular neighborhood is needed to activate the ability.
---
This version is less swingy than the first version since it is no longer dependent on a particular person staying alive. It still doesn't address the other issue of an 8p neighborhood being all town (or something of that sort), but I believe if one were to calculate the probability of such, it would be rather low. (And scum get pregame to decide on how to distribute themselves among the neighborhoods, so an instance of all three scum being in the same neighborhood and the sensor ability revealing such is on them.)

Currently, I have the sensor ability set to be a public majority vote, but maybe it would be better to have it be anonymous plurality vote (with numbers but not names revealed).

Any constructive feedback is welcome.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:01 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 93, Carl Tuckerson wrote:
In post 92, popsofctown wrote:Innocent Child
I don't get the verb form of that. I got what IC was but not "ICed"
Sorry that's on me

What I was trying to say was

Don't have people be confirmed town through mechanics, or almost-always-confirmed-town, or something scum has to CC to win, or something. (See "Follow the Cop" for an example)
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:04 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 90, popsofctown wrote:
String of Disappearances Mafia

8 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons

On Day One, the town may give up to one player Night 1 Bulletproof. There isn't a lynch day 1.
Night One, the mafia can neither no-kill nor target the bulletproof player.
On the verge of the nightkill victim's death, that mod has that player investigate another player, then vig another player (this can be compressed into one PM with an if X then Y statement).
If the vig victim is mafia aligned, this is over, but if the vig victim is town-aligned, this chain repeats indefinitely.
Sucks to be the nightkill victim

Also what happens after

Like, doesn't this guarantee a mafia dies

Does the vig victim die
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:10 pm

Post by chennisden »

Nick "Doc" Holliday is also v stupid

If you're an IC activating will just deny town a flip and confirm "the IC is town aligned" which is v bad
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:32 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

Ego
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:00 pm

Post by Carl Tuckerson »

In post 95, chennisden wrote:
In post 93, Carl Tuckerson wrote:
In post 92, popsofctown wrote:Innocent Child
I don't get the verb form of that. I got what IC was but not "ICed"
Sorry that's on me

What I was trying to say was

Don't have people be confirmed town through mechanics, or almost-always-confirmed-town, or something scum has to CC to win, or something. (See "Follow the Cop" for an example)
Most power roles are almost-always-confirmed town eventually. You want a mountainous game or something? lol
I don't think mafia has to counterclaim any of the roles in the game to win. I do think it's possible that 14:6 is townsided, because all four roles can come out on day 1 pretty freely, and any kill on a mafia confirms a townie. But you still have five mistakes and six mafia to catch. I originally thought 13:7 made sense but callforjudgment pointed out that 4 mistakes to catch 7 mafia is a pretty daunting task.
My main concern is that the game might be prone to snowballing. But I don't think it has the issues you're concerned about here.
In post 97, chennisden wrote:Nick "Doc" Holliday is also v stupid

If you're an IC activating will just deny town a flip and confirm "the IC is town aligned" which is v bad
That's not how the role works.
As was stated in the setup, days and nights are flipped for flavor reasons. "Doc" gets to see who the mafia kills and decide if he wants to take the hit for them. It's a stronger bodyguard role.
"my way is honoring the 4th is do a rebel run light as many fireworks as i can get drunk and stone and say think god im a american at least i know im free" - cyrus62
"omg you killed carl you basterds" - cyrus62
GTKAS
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