[CHALLENGE] September Challenge

[Jingle]

is my setup balanced ?

Loosely, yes.

cop 9er is vaguely balanced, you're adding .5 mls for a cop->vig transition.

Not sure the informed goon is important/useful, but it's in the realm of playable.

[Not Known 15]

Thanks pops! Tweaked. (Can't have 1-shot anyhow)

Too Many Guns (Too Many Guns) V2

2

Mafia Goon

1

Mafia Doctor

3

Town Gunsmith

2

Town Vigilante

4

Vanilla Townie

Not legal...
4 VT's , 6 PR's
You need to have as many Vanilla

townies

as PR's.

[Jingle]

Prospective Newbie:

Randomly one of:

Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor JK, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

In my experience the grid system isn't helpful and usually adds to confusion for newbies. This has some of the most balanced (by stats, at least) setups, with ambiguity in setup from any individual slot except vig without complicated roles. It's also a pretty good introduction to standard mafia roles. The most complicated interactions are RB/JK which has never really been an issue and GSmith Maf Doc, which I think is a good addition to demonstrate role ambiguity/ the ability to argue your way out of a guilty.

Thoughts?

[student]

Sigh

Too many guns V3

2

Mafia Goon

1

Mafia Doctor

2

Town Gunsmith

2

Town Vanilla Cop

5

Vanilla Townie

I like this version because it gets rid of double days with Vig. Under Mass Claim, with a 1-1-1 fakeclaim sort, Lynching in any 1 PR pool could be disastrous if wrong (day2 1 investigate + 6VT vs 3 goons is scumsided) . Under correct lynch, it gives 1 conf town PR (other is killed) in day 2, but the investigate effects are halved: did mafia sort against Vanilla Cop or Gunsmith? (1 IC + 1.5 investigate + 6.5 vt vs 2 goons is townsided). Overall, it doesn't seem like mass-claiming day 1 is optimal.

Without Claim: Gunsmith conditional probability on is scum, when has gun is about 2/3, While Vanilla Cop is about 1/2. Seems like reasonable rewards to investigating correctly, but not so much as to game-breaking.

[Spangled]

Prospective Newbie:

Randomly one of:

Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor JK, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

In my experience the grid system isn't helpful and usually adds to confusion for newbies. This has some of the most balanced (by stats, at least) setups, with ambiguity in setup from any individual slot except vig without complicated roles. It's also a pretty good introduction to standard mafia roles. The most complicated interactions are RB/JK which has never really been an issue and GSmith Maf Doc, which I think is a good addition to demonstrate role ambiguity/ the ability to argue your way out of a guilty.

Thoughts?

Gunsmith would, I think, also seem confusing for newbies, but I agree; I do like the Gunsmith/Maf Doc interaction.
To me, though, Vig seems dubious in a newbie; the swing that could produce might be really bad.
Other than that, though, I also think this one has more room for fakeclaiming etc., which is good.

[student]

Prospective Newbie:

Randomly one of:

Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor JK, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

In my experience the grid system isn't helpful and usually adds to confusion for newbies. This has some of the most balanced (by stats, at least) setups, with ambiguity in setup from any individual slot except vig without complicated roles. It's also a pretty good introduction to standard mafia roles. The most complicated interactions are RB/JK which has never really been an issue and GSmith Maf Doc, which I think is a good addition to demonstrate role ambiguity/ the ability to argue your way out of a guilty.

Thoughts?

I'd switch out Vig for doctor in setup 4, and Doctor for Tracker in Setup 2 to have a bit more symmetry. But then balance might start to get a bit off.

[student]

Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Watcher, 5 VT
Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Vig JK, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, Watcher, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

Even more symmetry.

[Jingle]

Watcher is probably too powerful for a newbie. Proposed changes in 55 would leave:

Prospective Newbie 2.0

1. Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
2. Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Doctor, 5 VT
3. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
4. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Vigilante, JK, 5 VT
5. Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
6. Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

Setup 1 is a straight upgrade from Doc/RB/BP from the old matrix6 which had an observed win rate of ~39%. It gets rid of BP which I think is an unfun role, and is mostly irrelevant to site meta. I'm fairly satisfied there.

The new Setup 2 is cop/doc/RB with the caveat that the cop doesn't immediately know their results are always viable. M6 version had a 54% winrate while the 2d3 had 78%, so the ambiguity is probably a good thing to drop the winrate a bit. I think I'm okay with that balance wise.

Setup 3 is slightly less town power than B3 from 2d3, (Rolecop Tracker JK) which has a 57% win rate. Again, clipping there seems reasonable and I don't think the doc/JK switch will hurt town too much.

Setup 4 is new. Vig/JK is a lot of power but slightly negative interactions. My guess is that it'd be fairly balanced.

Setup 5 is traditional JK 9er which had 53% in M6. I don't think this needs tweaks.

Setup 6 allows for GSMith ambiguity in Setup 2 (a plus) and the vig is a soft guilty if it fails to kill. Gsmith can only hit one of the scum and Vig can hit the other. I atually really like the symmetry in here and it

looks

balanced without digging too deep.

Gunsmith would, I think, also seem confusing for newbies, but I agree; I do like the Gunsmith/Maf Doc interaction.
To me, though, Vig seems dubious in a newbie; the swing that could produce might be really bad.
Other than that, though, I also think this one has more room for fakeclaiming etc., which is good.

Gsmith being confusing could probably be solved by changing the Role PM for the newbie queue. "Receives a result of "has a gun" for Mafia Roleblockers, Mafia Goons, and Town Vigilantes. Receives a result of "does not have a gun" for any other role." Should make it clear enough.

Vig introducing swing is valid, but imo secondary.

AFAIK, the newbie queue is designed to introduce common roles, acclimate people to our site, and be fun. Whatever else it may be, vig is generally a fun role.

[mith]

Question: would Miller Neighborizer count as a modified role or a combination role?

[gobbledygook]

I would say combined. Miller itself is a role. We don’t call them Miller Townies or Guilty townies. This implies collective subconscious has always thought of it as a role, not a modification to a vanilla townie role.

[Jingle]

I would say combined. Miller itself is a role. We don’t call them Miller Townies or Guilty townies. This implies collective subconscious has always thought of it as a role, not a modification to a vanilla townie role.

It's explicitly listed as a role on the wiki, FWIW, so I think you're safe to say it's a combination.

[popsofctown]

Scum neighborizer is ok, if a slot that investigates is scum is what you're really pining for

[mith]

So, I don't love the balance here really, but this is the idea I was toying with that prompted the question:

2 of 2 of 4

Setup is one of the following, with equal probability:

• Mafia Godfather, Mafia Role Cop, Town Cop, Town Vanilla Cop, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Vanilla Cop, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Godfather, Mafia Encryptor, Town Cop, Town Miller Neighborizer, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Encryptor, Town Cop, Town Miller Neighborizer, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Godfather, Mafia Encryptor, Town Cop, 6x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, 6x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Encryptor, Town Vanilla Cop, Town Miller Neighborizer, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Goon, Town Vanilla Cop, Town Miller Neighborizer, 5x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Godfather, Mafia Role Cop, Town Vanilla Cop, 6x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Godfather, Mafia Goon, Town Vanilla Cop, 6x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Godfather, Mafia Goon, Town Miller Neighborizer, 6x Vanilla Town
  Mafia Encryptor, Mafia Goon, Town Miller Neighborizer, 6x Vanilla Town

Mafia is 2 of Godfather, Role Cop, Encryptor, Goon
Town is 5 VT + 2 of Cop, Vanilla Cop, Miller Neighborizer, VT

Each combination of Mafia roles appears twice, and each combination of Town roles appears twice - the allowed combinations are (very roughly) chosen based on the number of investigators, the number of false negatives and positives for those investigators, and whether scum have daytalk and/or town has a neighborhood.

Each individual role (other than VT) appears in half of the setups, so town power roles don't have a lot of setup knowledge going in, while scum teams have it narrowed down to two possibilities and can possibly claim a power role without getting countered.

[Jingle]

I gotta say that I'm not a fan of most of those roles, tbh. The balance also seems really wonky, particularly when a second VT is chosen.

Godfather Goon Cop 6 VTs, for example, seems really punishing.

[Not Known 15]

Vig in a newbie... I had an idea for a new newbie setup with vigs, and it got shouted down rightfully. If a newbie gets vig then... let's just say vig is a role that has way above average pressure to scumread correctly or else.

[callforjudgement]

I think Miller Neighbourizer is a combination role. I'd meant to ban that but looking at my wording, it seems like I didn't, so it's fair game.

Setup 4 is new. Vig/JK is a lot of power but slightly negative interactions. My guess is that it'd be fairly balanced.

I suspect it's very townsided. Vig is a confirmable role, after all (and it doesn't really help with symmetry because scum can't plausibly fakeclaim it). Even though the town roles can interfere with each other, they probably won't.

[Jingle]

I suspect it's very townsided. Vig is a confirmable role, after all (and it doesn't really help with symmetry because scum can't plausibly fakeclaim it). Even though the town roles can interfere with each other, they probably won't.

Point. Symmetry isn't a huge concern anyway. Switching 4 back.

I don't think the vig in 6 is an issue, but I'd be down to hear why people do.

[Jingle]

Prospective Newbie 3

1. Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
2. Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Doctor, 5 VT
3. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
4. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor, JK, 5 VT
5. Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
6. Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

[popsofctown]

Oh hey the month ended

[popsofctown]

TemporalLich
popsofctown
OkaPoka
Jingle
SS
student
NK15
mith

[Jingle]

I have to read 6 whole setups to vote?

GDI.

I guess I can.

[popsofctown]

There's seven, I added NK15. If you count subsetups separately this technically has the most submissions.

[Jingle]

Oh, that was easy

Jingle
S_S
Pops
T Lich
Oka
Student
Nk15
Mith

I’d play none of these, tbh, barring game specific gimmicks. Miths is the least balanced, students has oops all investigations (which I find distasteful, but isn’t objectively wrong) oka’s seems < fun than vig 9er and pops has the more interesting setup tweak, despite still being functionally a cop setup.

SS is pretty solid, if derivative of cop 9er. NK15 is 48 setups, but a skim saw a few that were functionally mountainous. It seems to have all the disadvantages of an open without the upsides. I think the grid system is the downfall here, and it’s be better if he just focused on the setups he actually liked.

[popsofctown]

I know that a watcher setup would fit these guidelines and that is what you truly wanted from me Jingle
But I can never give that to you

[Jingle]

I’ll deal with nk15’s monster later. The whole grid isn’t even showing up on my phone.