[SETUP] Outerworld
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[SETUP] Outerworld
This is a game where there is more than meets the eye. This game requires two separate sign-up queues, one for players and one for outer deities. This game should be considered a Large.
This is an experimental setup. Balance likely will be off.
Mercy is intended to townside and Evil is intended to scumside. Knowledge and Change are supposed to be neutral to town/scum winrate.
The setup also needs a better name than "Outerworld".Last edited by TemporalLich on Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.time will end- Kerset
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Some of the power mechanick things I don't think should be mechanicked.
Keeping a player in a game after they've achieved their wincon is sus.
I would worry about replacements for deities."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- chennisden
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If two deities win and leave the non-winners would be able to impose effects without the other's input which doesn't seem good.
The alternative would be requiring unanimity when there are two outer deities...
If deities left when winning, I'd tweak Change's second wincon to "Unilaterally impose a special effect".
Also deities don't know each other's alignment by default. For example, Mercy doesn't know the identity of her bane, Evil.
EBWOE:
These changes will be version 1.1 btw:
If an outer deity wins it leaves the game but may still talk in a Direct Line PT. If there are two or three outer deities, two need to agree on an effect.
Change's wincon is now "Change wins if they unilaterally impose an effect or if Knowledge fails to guess a Mafia-aligned player correctly."
If an outer deity requires replacement, it will be announced like a player announcement (safest option tbh, the alternative would be using a modkill instead)
If an effect fails to be decided during the night, the first unused effect on the list will be used.time will end- popsofctown
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popsofctown SheSurvivor
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If it's possible to redesign the game to where you can modkill outer deities that'd be helpful, that may or may not be feasible.
I think it's really worth it to design the game to where people aren't playing if they don't have a win condition though it's really annoying for the players with a win condition anytime that happens.
Like if I have a direct line to nsg already-won-Knowledge because I replaced in for chennisden and I see all her help with his solves in the pt and when I get there she says she's too bored to read the thread and keep solving the game for me I would feel so hurt and cry."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- popsofctown
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popsofctown SheSurvivor
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WOW guess I know who's Team Mafia team you're really on omg smhIn post 3, chennisden wrote:Kerset your avatar is completely legendary."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- TemporalLich
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Modkilling an outer deity (either for unsafe replacement rules or for their slot being compromised) is as simple as making the outer deity immediately leave (which affects the special effects like leaving and winning does), changing their alignment to Neutral Survivor so they can't win, and announcing that they have been modkilled in the Outer Deity PT.In post 5, popsofctown wrote:If it's possible to redesign the game to where you can modkill outer deities that'd be helpful, that may or may not be feasible.
I think it's really worth it to design the game to where people aren't playing if they don't have a win condition though it's really annoying for the players with a win condition anytime that happens.
Like if I have a direct line to nsg already-won-Knowledge because I replaced in for chennisden and I see all her help with his solves in the pt and when I get there she says she's too bored to read the thread and keep solving the game for me I would feel so hurt and cry.
The problem is that every offense that would be force-replaceable under the safe replacement rules is modkillable under the unsafe replacement rules, which would require listmod intervention under Requiring Modkills.
I might consider closing Direct Line PTs that contain an outer deity that has either left or been modkilled btw.
yeah prophet is going to lose the "The Town Prophet is informed each night of who didn't agree on the special effect." ability.time will end- popsofctown
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popsofctown SheSurvivor
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You do NOT need listmod approval for modkills that considered part of the setup. It is preferred you warn the listmod what the setup-specific modkills are and why, but once you do that they can be performed without approval.Exceptions such as when a modkill is an explicit part of a game's mechanics, such as mafia games with strict post restrictions, will be allowed provided it is a theme game and players are informed before signing up."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- TemporalLich
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The unsafe replacement rules are "If an outer deity were to ever need replacement for any reason including inactivity, they are instead modkilled." (This is to avoid announcing that a Outer Deity is being force-replaced publically for inactivity or rule breaches, also players chose to sign up as Outer Deity despite being warned of this fact)
Also outer deity prods are in the Outer Deity PT regardless of whether the replacement rules are safe or unsafe.Last edited by TemporalLich on Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.time will end- popsofctown
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I'm a little confused by your terminology but it sounds like we agree.
I think random loss of certain deities could skew the game scumwise or townwise but never so much the game is unplayable so it seems like a good way to go. Maybe add an additional scumsiding and townsiding deity to improve the odds you have a few deities playing through the end of the game?
I think I already like this setup better than, like, Guns and Roses"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- TemporalLich
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safe replacement rules are announcing outer deity replacements publically, unsafe replacement rules are similar to the BaM replacement rules, privately modkilling outer deities instead of replacing them.In post 10, popsofctown wrote:I'm a little confused by your terminology but it sounds like we agree.
I think random loss of certain deities could skew the game scumwise or townwise but never so much the game is unplayable so it seems like a good way to go. Maybe add an additional scumsiding and townsiding deity to improve the odds you have a few deities playing through the end of the game?
I think I already like this setup better than, like, Guns and Roses
I might consider adding in a weak townsiding and scumsiding deity, perhapsandUnitywould work. I do wantCorruptionandMercyto have a vested interest in one alignment over the other though, but not just be a town or scum aligned outer deity.Eviltime will end- TemporalLich
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Here is two extra outer deities to soften the effect of losingorMercy.Evil
- Wins if two unique proposed players in a row are Town-aligned or if they can correctly guess D3's lynch before the end of Night 2.Unity
- Wins if a Mafioso is proposed twice or if they can correctly guess N3's kill target before the end of Night 2.Corruption
The special effect rules become "Outer deities must vote on special effects each Night. The special effect vote has a threshold calculated like a lynch threshold but counting outer deities instead of players. One special effect happens each night. Special effects can be used only once in the game. Proposed players require one less vote than special effects. If an effect fails to be decided during the night, the first unused effect on the list will be used."
I am likely amending's win con to only require three townies dying in a row.Evil
I was also considering a special effect to allow the outer deities to write a message to be publically posted by the moderator and a special effect to render someone ineligible for lynching, but I am not keen on adding those effects.
I was also also considering secret effects that required both a prophet and a blessed one, but those were overpowered and were instant win buttons (e.g. Knowledge's secret effect would have allowed the outer deities to read the Mafia PT)time will end- Kerset
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v2.0 of Outerworld with new deities, deities leaving when winning, and the unsafe replacement rules.Last edited by TemporalLich on Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.time will end- popsofctown
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This looks better.
Are you sure you want effects publicly revealed? Publically revealing that "Power" won is probably going to result in people doing unofficial voting and condemning those who throw their votes around as lolhammerers, even if it's not clear who got the multivoting. That's still possibly optimal play if you conceal what effect won but it becomes such a narrow possibility that the lolhammers might happen, which grants more agency to the outer deities. Which, my main concern with this setup is how much agency the outer deities actually have."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- TemporalLich
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It's less bastard that way tbh. Otherwise not knowing Nature's Blessing or Power is in effect until it is too late can really destroy games. Also Suppression is a lot more WIFOMy with it being known it is in effect.In post 15, popsofctown wrote:This looks better.
Are you sure you want effects publicly revealed? Publically revealing that "Power" won is probably going to result in people doing unofficial voting and condemning those who throw their votes around as lolhammerers, even if it's not clear who got the multivoting. That's still possibly optimal play if you conceal what effect won but it becomes such a narrow possibility that the lolhammers might happen, which grants more agency to the outer deities. Which, my main concern with this setup is how much agency the outer deities actually have.
As a sidenote, the player affected by Power knows they are affected by Power.
Several effects would be obvious either way such as Slow Mo and Discern Purity.
Also I really should add that outer deities choose a special effect during pregame.
If I changed it to not knowing effects I'd need to add more effects that took advantage of not being obvious, and consider making Nature's Blessing, Power, and Suppression obvious.
On a last note, I might considering adding an effect that allows three effects to be voted on the next night.time will end- TemporalLich
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High power concealed special effects list:
Higher power effects to hopefully give the outer deities more agency. This will be more bastard than the low power effects.
Effects are not revealed unless it says they are revealed. Proposed players are never revealed.
Slow Mo- The next day's deadline is multiplied by 5. This effect is revealed.
Fast Forward- The next day's deadline is divided by 5. This effect is revealed.
Love- The lynch threshold the next day is increased by 2, to a maximum of alive players minus 1. This effect is revealed.
Hatred- The lynch threshold the next day is decreased by 2, to a minimum of 1. This effect is revealed.
Sleep- The threshold for No Lynching is decreased by 4, to a minimum of 1. This effect is revealed.
Nature's Blessing- The lynch is instead a treestumping the next day.
Solstice- The next night's deadline is divided by 2. This effect is revealed the next night.
Shadows- The next night's factional kill is flipless.
Secrets- The outer deities gain access to the Mafia PT (but may not post there).
Visions- The outer deities each gain a 1-shot Mailman ability to be used at any time.
Power- A proposed player has their vote weight secretly increased to 3 the next day. Said player will know.
Suppression- A proposed player becomes voteless and post-restricted the next day (they may post only once per hour, at penalty of death).
Divine Intervention- A proposed player is protected from kills that night and the next night.
Blueness- A proposed player has their name colored blue in votecounts for the rest of the game. This effect is revealed.
Discern Purity- A proposed player has their alignment publically revealed. This effect is revealed.
Commune With Darkness- A proposed player has their role revealed in the Mafia PT. If that player was Mafia-aligned, they get an ability to learn a player's role at any time once in the game. This effect is only revealed in the Mafia PT.
Messenger- A proposed player gains a 2-shot neighborizer ability.
Direct Line- A proposed player gains a PT with a proposed outer deity.
Soul Seeking- A proposed player gains a 2-shot tracker ability.
Divine Shield- A proposed player becomes loved (needs one more vote to lynch than normal) for the rest of the game.
Imposition- A proposed player becomes ineligible for lynching the next day. The moderator will reveal that said player is ineligible for lynching.
Nullify- A proposed player becomes ineligible for being a proposed player for the rest of the game.
Outer Deity's Fury- The outer deities vote on three special effects the next night.
Once Again- A proposed special effect becomes usable again.time will end- TemporalLich
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Considering tweaking Knowledge's wincon to avoid weird kingmaker scenarios and Change's wincon to make Change more fun to play.
Knowledge proposed wincon change - Knowledge wins if they correctly guess via a PM to the moderator that someone who is alive is Mafia-aligned before Day 3, or if three unique proposed players are vanilla.
Change proposed wincon change - Change wins if Knowledge fails to guess a Mafia-aligned player correctly before Day 3, or if a power role is proposed twice in a row.time will end- TemporalLich
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I would expect the correct Outer Deity replacement rules to be to, from the players' point of view, treat it as a secret alt game; replacements are announced to the Outer Deities, but the players will be unaware that anything has changed.
I would expect scum to have advantage over town in the player half of the setup. The Outer Deity effects seem unlikely to townside the setup all that much (in fact, they may even scumside it), and 2 Named Townies + 8 VT versus 3 Goons is scumsided. The basic issue here is that although the Outer Deities have the ability to townside the setup, I don't see why they would use it. So in practice, a lot will come down to whether the Prophet can empower a suitable deity to break the deadlock.
There is a breaking strategy: Mercy + Unity + Change + Corruption can cooperate to arrange a win for town and all four of those deities. The basic idea is to use Secrets (which is completely broken) to get into the Mafia PT and thus discover the whole scumteam, then communicate this information to the players, one scumteam member at a time, using proposals on scum for at least two of these communications. Mercy wins due to two consecutive votes on scum; Unity predicts the D3 elimination (it'll be the player who was confirmed as scum at that point); Knowledge wins based on knowing the scumteam; and Corruption wins from proposals. Actually, it seems likely that the setup will need substantial revision to stop an agreement between a majority of Outer Deities simply taking over the game, as in this strategy. (As a side note, the same four players can win in just two days, and probably will, leaving town knowing two members of the scumteam and not the third. After all, there's no particular reason why you'd have to arrange a win for town in the process of taking over.)
On a more minor note, Restless Spirits need a restriction on how often they can vote, otherwise they'll just vote a lot to send coded messages, which is no fun for anyone.scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- TemporalLich
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Secrets is still completely broken (and in general, it wouldn't surprise me if the game ended up being decided by a conspiracy of four Outer Deities, there are likely to be lots of combinations that work).
I think you might want some sort of self-balancing mechanism in which if an Outer Deity is outvoted, their vote is higher on the next vote.scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- TemporalLich
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There's no possible way to do Secrets in a way that doesn't allow the proposed outer deity to just leak the scumteam in the Outer Deity PT that doesn't involve a post restriction.
Outer deity collusion would require one outer deity to work with their rival, I did make it so all 6 deities can theoretically win but it shouldn't be easy for both you and your rival to win. I am not against bumping up outer deities that were off the special effect wagon to 1.5 vote weight the next Night.time will end - TemporalLich
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