[CHALLENGE] February + March Challenge

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
TemporalLich
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Post Post #75  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:21 pm

In post 74, OkaPoka wrote:public cop + named townie is still superior to two masons because

public cop + named townie is potentially three clears by day 2 while masons are potentially two clears by day 2

day vig + backup is more interesting but i dont see scum shooting the dayvig since moving from even to odds doesn't advantage them too much, better just looking for the backup to kill
not sure where you're getting three clears from, but a miller in that setup feels very slightly bastard
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Post Post #76  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:22 pm

theoretically optimal play is to mass claim

since power roles are conf town

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Post Post #77  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:27 pm

In post 73, popsofctown wrote:Ah yes, scum do have a log-in draw. Snazzy. That is not the One Thing making or breaking whether I view that as a playable setup


I'd guess it's intended as a parity win (which is fairly standard), although I agree that S/T pairings being possible (if ill advised) doesn't mean its a great setup.
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Post Post #78  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:32 pm

In post 76, OkaPoka wrote:theoretically optimal play is to mass claim

since power roles are conf town


It's not really potentially 3 clears. It is 3 clears. Scum have to kill one of the two PR's, but even if they do the public cop goes through and clears/guilties a player. If scum cc's public cop they die. If scum cc's named townie they trade a scum lynch for potentially a clear lynch.
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Post Post #79  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:35 pm

In post 77, Jingle wrote:
In post 73, popsofctown wrote:Ah yes, scum do have a log-in draw. Snazzy. That is not the One Thing making or breaking whether I view that as a playable setup


I'd guess it's intended as a parity win (which is fairly standard), although I agree that S/T pairings being possible (if ill advised) doesn't mean its a great setup.

I have not experienced setups with nonstandard death mechanics automatically having parity win condition, I have experienced struggling through a functionally nightless setup that has 56% town EV because GiF specified the mafia win condition as "one more Mafiosi beyond parity". :evil:
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

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Post Post #80  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:53 am

It's a simple enough clarification for Hectic to make, and he probably should.

I'm more interested in the switches answers anyway, though.
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Post Post #81  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:10 am

"Ship it"6 Informed Starcrossed Townies
2 Informed Starcrossed Mafia

All players have a random other player they are Starcrossed with and Tragically Fated to.
Starcrosses and Tragic Fates are reciprocal.
Mafia are additionally informed of ALL starcross and tragic fate relationships.
For each tragic fate pairing, one player in the pairing is informed of two players they are not starcrossed to. Neither candidate will be their starcross.

Each day, players vote to ship two other players together. It only take half the votes to ship two players. After one pair is shipped, this process repeats until every player has been shipped.
At the end of each day, events happen based on the characteristics of each pairing:
- Mafia paired with mafia immediately cause town to win the game
- Tragically fated pairs of players perish. If a Mafiosi dies this way, town wins the game.
- If a Starcrossed pair is fully town, they become an OTP. Their alignments are revealed and they are automatically paired with eachother at the start of each day for the rest of the game.
Mafia wins if the town has not won by the end of day X, where X=3 as of now.
Last edited by popsofctown on Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

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Post Post #82  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:25 pm

4 players get informed.
4 players uninformed.

Massclaim information D1.

Pair all pair claims outside of the impossible to OTP information until the lategame.

If there are 6 players in the mafia pool, there are 15 possible pairings among those 6. You can't quite brute force the autowin (a single player must be paired 5 times for autowin) but you can get it close enough. Scum therefore shouldn't fakeclaim to make a 6v2 split.

If it's a 5:3 split, you should be able to logic at least one pairing for the three based on information claims early. You have a good chance of a first day OTP.

4:4 split, 32% chance of no OTP in the first phase if S/S starcrossed, 42% if S/T starcrossed.

tl;dr, I still think X=3 is better for balance.

Also, as written there's no mafia loss for both mafia dying. is that intentional?
"I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!" - Tom Lehrer

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Post Post #83  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:26 pm

So if we pick 2 players, are they always either starcrossed or tragic?

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Post Post #84  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:37 pm

The way I parse it each player has 1 of each type.

So Player A would be starcrossed with Player B, Tragic with Player C, and Informed they're not starcrossed with players C and D.
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Post Post #85  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:42 pm

Marathon Night v1.27 players

2 Mafia Goons
5 Townies

After Town/Mafia Role PMs are distributed but before Day 1, the thread is unlocked and a compulsive plurality vote decides what power roles to generate during a "role phase". The power roles will be given to random townies. After power roles are distributed (those who get power roles will get new role PMs), Day 1 begins as normal.

Role Phase Options are:

1 Public Cop (checks alignment, mod will confirm that player's alignment inthread), 1 Miller (is seen as Mafia-aligned to the Public Cop)
1 Day Vigilante (Publically shoots a player during the day), 1 Backup 1-shot Vigilante (can act only if the day vigilante is dead, shoots a player during night but only works once)
2 Masons (They gain a PT with daytalk to talk to each other)

Lynches and nightkills are compulsive.

The Mafia PT has daytalk.
version 1.2 with a Miller, to weaken the Public Cop setup further.
time will end

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Post Post #86  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:43 pm

A Sample setup would be:

Starcrossed:

A:B
C:D
E:F
G:H

Tragic

C:E
D:H
B:F
G:A

Informed:

C: H,B
D: A,G
B: G,F
G: H,A

Mafia: F, D

I'm still not certain if the tragic fates are guaranteed to be included in the 2 informed for the informed players, but I would assume not because it's already a ton of information.
"I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!" - Tom Lehrer

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Post Post #87  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:44 pm

Miller is functionally the same as Named town there, since they're claiming D1 anyway.

Question, is the dayvig limited shot or can they continue shooting on future days if they survive?
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TemporalLich
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Post Post #88  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:54 pm

In post 87, Jingle wrote:Miller is functionally the same as Named town there, since they're claiming D1 anyway.

Question, is the dayvig limited shot or can they continue shooting on future days if they survive?
I'm probably going to have to make setup 1 use a public tracker or other unreliable public investigative. I'm thinking public tracker and named townie might work, if not maybe D2 public cop and named townie.

The Dayvig is ungated. They can shoot for as long as they survive.

If you don't know, the themes of each Marathon Night setup are:

Investigatives
Kills
PTs
time will end

OkaPoka
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Post Post #89  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm

i think public cop choice should just be a public cop, no other townies

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Post Post #90  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:57 pm

In post 89, OkaPoka wrote:i think public cop choice should just be a public cop, no other townies
that just makes it 7p public cop tbh
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Post Post #91  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:32 pm

In post 88, TemporalLich wrote:I'm probably going to have to make setup 1 use a public tracker or other unreliable public investigative. I'm thinking public tracker and named townie might work, if not maybe D2 public cop and named townie.


Could give scum a rolestopper in Setup 1.

If the dayvig is a full dayvig, that setup is viable as a choice too.

70% to hit scum D1 and go into 4p with a conftown and a vigshot (63%). Overall that's a
55% town EV when you take into consideration the 1/10 where you catch both scum D1.
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Post Post #92  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:39 pm

Thank you for the feedback Jingle.

I edited to "X=3", and town winning on -either- mafia perishing although the intent was if both, and narrowed the information down to 2 non-starcrosses.


I kind of don't love the setup or think I would run it but it's still fun to think about. The rules for this challenge are trickly for doing my favorite things.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

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Post Post #93  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:40 pm

I could maybe do "8 players or less" and "ends by day 4" or "coalition style choice" with a revision of the autobattler setup, maybe.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

Jingle
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Post Post #94  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:42 pm

I'd play it, but it's probably better as a marathon or a blitz than a prolonged game.
"I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!" - Tom Lehrer

TemporalLich
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Post Post #95  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:46 pm

Marathon Night v27 players

2 Mafia
5 Townies

After Town/Mafia Role PMs are distributed but before Day 1, the thread is unlocked and a compulsive plurality vote decides what power roles to generate during a "role phase". The power roles will be given to random townies. After power roles are distributed (those who get power roles will get new role PMs), Day 1 begins as normal.

Role Phase Options are:

1 Public Cop (checks alignment, mod will confirm that player's alignment inthread), 1 Mafia Rolestopper (given to Mafia instead of a townie, renders target immune to all abilities)
1 Day Vigilante (Publically shoots a player during the day), 1 Backup 1-shot Vigilante (can act only if the day vigilante is dead, shoots a player during night but only works once)
2 Masons (They gain a PT with daytalk to talk to each other)

Lynches and nightkills are compulsive.

The Mafia PT has daytalk.
version 2 with Jingle's setup for the public cop choice. Yeah this seems more balanced.
Last edited by TemporalLich on Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
time will end

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Post Post #96  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:47 pm

Oh it's designed to be a marathon, I'm just not sure it even meets the bar that there is for that.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

OkaPoka
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Post Post #97  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:48 pm

can dayvig act more than one time?

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Post Post #98  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:28 pm

Once per day, he confirmed that for me.
"I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!" - Tom Lehrer

OkaPoka
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Post Post #99  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:36 pm

damn ok yeah these are interesting choices

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