[SETUP] The King's New Robes

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[SETUP] The King's New Robes

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:25 am

Post by DkKoba »

Alright, this is a setup based on a setup I made on Epicmafia. I have little experience in forum balancing. It is a semi-open. idk if theres mafiawiki equivalents for some of the roles I'm listing, if there are pls lmk.

The King's New RobesBase town:
3 Vanilla Townies

1 Oracle

1 1-Shot Bride


2 mafia, consisting of:
0-2 Mafia Actress

0-2 Mafia Tailor


For every Actress, add a
Vanilla Townie
. For every Tailor, add an
Oracle
.

Special mechanics:
Infiltration Start.
The game starts on n0. Actions may be performed as normal during this night, other than nightkills.
Vengeful Mafia.
Instead of a nightkill, the mafia are able to shoot 1 player upon their own elimination.


as for what the unorthodox roles do(ill write up something more official looking later):

Oracle: On death, reveals the role of the person they chose the previous night. This will be announced via a mod message in thread. The night action does NOT count as a visit.
Bride: During the day, has a day action to propose a marriage to another player. That player may choose to accept or deny. If accepted, both the Bride and the chosen player's roles are revealed. If denied, the action is not used up and neither role is revealed.
Actress: Every night may choose a player. The actress gains a suit that corresponds to that player's role. That suit will be what is shown when the actress' role is revealed. This suit may be updated every time the action is used. (i.e. actress goes on a vanilla townie, and is chosen by an oracle who dies. They will be revealed as a vanilla townie instead of actress.) Learns the role of the suit they take via system message. (i.e. You learn that Player is a Vanilla Townie!)
Tailor: Every night, may choose to give a player a suit. This is not able to override already existing suits. (once you have a suit you cannot receive a 2nd one). The suit may be of any role that exists within the setup. (this effectively gives tailor the role list, but not how many of each role there is.) The target will be informed of receiving a suit, but not what the suit is. That player will reveal as whatever the suit is.


Possible setups:
3 VT, 1 Bride, 1 Oracle, 2 Actress
2 VT, 1 Bride, 2 Oracle, 1 Actress, 1 Tailor
1 VT, 1 Bride, 3 Oracle, 2 Tailor


I'm open to adjustments to make this workable! Also the original concept for this setup was not a semi-open, and instead just this setup but only with 1 tailor and 1 actress.
Edited to add the vengeful mafia varient.
Last edited by DkKoba on Sun May 30, 2021 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:26 am

Post by DkKoba »

I am open to adding another VT + Oracle to add another ML to the setup. However I think that this itself may be balanced for forum play.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:32 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Ego.

I'm tempted to say this is scumsided. If we ignore the PR's, then scum know the exact claims to make to avoid giving anything away-- actress always claims oracle, and tailor always claims VT. Since oracle is confirmed on death, actress's power matters only for the bride.

But I'll think about it a little more in depth.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:17 am

Post by Nahdia »

worth noting that Oracle and Tailor are already roles on MS with different mechanics. but like u said it being an open, probably fine. there aren't mafiawiki equivilents are far as i know because reveal mechanics haven't really been toyed with too much here.

not sure if im just misreading but it doesn't look like you specified that actress learns the role of their target at the end of the night as well. is that intentional?

as for balance, i imagine it's scumsided with only 1 misexecute. the bride's reveal is only effective if it hits a tailor or an actress that targeted them so usually, all it does is make the bride an IC.

ill also just say that i generally caution people about designing setups like this. this is effectively borderline no reveal, which is already extremely difficult to pull off in forum mafia. not saying just throw it out, but be aware that it's the kind of setup that will only be run successfully if you have a very committed and invested playerlist.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:23 am

Post by DkKoba »

fixed the actress part.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:55 pm

Post by BBmolla »

what is the benefit in having the mafia roles be variable
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:23 am

Post by DkKoba »

In post 5, BBmolla wrote:what is the benefit in having the mafia roles be variable
Fun (:
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"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

An "Oracle" is a bit like a Ninja Vengerolecop, although that wouldn't trigger upon being nightkilled. Your "Tailor" is actually pretty similar to our Tailor, adapted for the setup mechanics (although it's Loud).

As a mechanical note, you need to work out what should happen if someone fakes a Bride action. The ability to refuse it doesn't do anything interesting unless it's unclear whether the Bride action was faked or whether the action was real but refused (otherwise, town will just pressure people into accepting on pain of being voted out). This may end up having a balance impact on the setup. (In particular, you want to specify whether the action is public, or whether it's taken by private message; day actions are usually public here but either could be reasonable.)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the Mafia have a huge advantage here. Town's only information advantage in that setup is that an Actress might not necessarily know which town role the Bride will reveal them as (so there's a chance that they get caught out by day action), plus one named role that's useful for PoE purposes (plus one possible red investigation if a lone Tailor can't self-target; in the two-Tailor setup this doesn't matter because they can just target each other). My first thought was to add an extra two VTs, but I don't think that goes far enough in terms of balancing the setup. Getting rid of N0 would help balance-wise but a) might still not be enough (compare, e.g., 2 Mason + 5 VT vs. 2 Mafia, which is close to balanced here and is comparable to the situation after two VTs are added and a Bride shot is used) and b) would make many of the special mechanics irrelevant (e.g. the Bride would simply always just trigger D1, before any suits had a chance to be added). So I'm not sure I can see a way to fix this at Micro size while preserving the unique mechanics of the setup.

It might work better as a Mini, or even a Large, if you limit the speed at which the Mafia can start interfering with the investigations (although I have a suspicion that it'd be better off Closed than Open). You might want to look at the Paint Mafia series for inspiration, which has similar mechanics (painting players various colours rather than using suits) but alters them to be a lot more townsided.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:44 pm

Post by DkKoba »

In post 7, callforjudgement wrote:An "Oracle" is a bit like a Ninja Vengerolecop, although that wouldn't trigger upon being nightkilled. Your "Tailor" is actually pretty similar to our Tailor, adapted for the setup mechanics (although it's Loud).

As a mechanical note, you need to work out what should happen if someone fakes a Bride action. The ability to refuse it doesn't do anything interesting unless it's unclear whether the Bride action was faked or whether the action was real but refused (otherwise, town will just pressure people into accepting on pain of being voted out). This may end up having a balance impact on the setup. (In particular, you want to specify whether the action is public, or whether it's taken by private message; day actions are usually public here but either could be reasonable.)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the Mafia have a huge advantage here. Town's only information advantage in that setup is that an Actress might not necessarily know which town role the Bride will reveal them as (so there's a chance that they get caught out by day action), plus one named role that's useful for PoE purposes (plus one possible red investigation if a lone Tailor can't self-target; in the two-Tailor setup this doesn't matter because they can just target each other). My first thought was to add an extra two VTs, but I don't think that goes far enough in terms of balancing the setup. Getting rid of N0 would help balance-wise but a) might still not be enough (compare, e.g., 2 Mason + 5 VT vs. 2 Mafia, which is close to balanced here and is comparable to the situation after two VTs are added and a Bride shot is used) and b) would make many of the special mechanics irrelevant (e.g. the Bride would simply always just trigger D1, before any suits had a chance to be added). So I'm not sure I can see a way to fix this at Micro size while preserving the unique mechanics of the setup.

It might work better as a Mini, or even a Large, if you limit the speed at which the Mafia can start interfering with the investigations (although I have a suspicion that it'd be better off Closed than Open). You might want to look at the Paint Mafia series for inspiration, which has similar mechanics (painting players various colours rather than using suits) but alters them to be a lot more townsided.
oh! bride would result in a mod message publically stating "The Bride has propsed marriage!"
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"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:05 pm

Post by Isis »

I agree this is very scumsided as written.
What about running this as a 7:2 nightless with vengeful scum?
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:32 am

Post by DkKoba »

perhaps
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"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:10 pm

Post by DkKoba »

In post 9, Isis wrote:I agree this is very scumsided as written.
What about running this as a 7:2 nightless with vengeful scum?
I think this is best

not nightless, bc there ARE night actions I want but not giving mafia nightkills would be the play then.
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"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:22 am

Post by Isis »

Yeah I meant no nightkills, you still need a nightphase for the night actions. I think of nightless as a mental shorthand for removing the mafia's killpower, sorry.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:38 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

As usual, don't understand anything about the set-up but '/in' in confidence! :giggle: :facepalm:

Be ready
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, you'll soon feel the rain of questioning from me :P
I can ask here, right?
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:27 am

Post by DkKoba »

In post 13, Salsabil Faria wrote:As usual, don't understand anything about the set-up but '/in' in confidence! :giggle: :facepalm:

Be ready
DkKoba
, you'll soon feel the rain of questioning from me :P
I can ask here, right?
Sure.

Also role names will be renamed before game starts.
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"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:23 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

1st Question:
Maximum 4 scums?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:30 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

2nd Question:
''
The night action does NOT count as a visit.
'': don't understand this (about
Oracle
)
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:50 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

3rd Question:
Dont't understand this
Actress
part:

(i) they can 'disguise' as any town player they choose?

(ii)''
That suit will be what is shown when the actress' role is revealed
'' : when they will be eliminated?

(iii)''
This suit may be updated every time the action is used. (i.e. actress goes on a vanilla townie, and is chosen by an oracle who dies. They will be revealed as a vanilla townie instead of actress.)
'' : don't get this
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:52 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

4th Question
:
Tailor
will give suit only among their scum team members, right?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:55 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

In post 5, BBmolla wrote:what is the benefit in having the mafia roles be variable
You're back!!!! :D :D :D
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:21 am

Post by DkKoba »

I'll answer when i get home
I'll start off by that there is no variable scum, only role distribution. (3 possible setups)
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:16 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 0, DkKoba wrote:(this effectively gives tailor the role list, but not how many of each role there is.)
Based on scum roles they could deduce the quantities anyway?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:05 am

Post by DkKoba »

In post 21, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 0, DkKoba wrote:(this effectively gives tailor the role list, but not how many of each role there is.)
Based on scum roles they could deduce the quantities anyway?
Exactly yeah.
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"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:17 am

Post by Salsabil Faria »

@DkKoba....
I'm waiting for someone to say something special in mafia game(s) about me, so that, I can change my pathetic signature.


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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:09 am

Post by DkKoba »

Gonna be working on this tonight to clarify and create role pms for the setup so its much clearer to understand
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"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
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