Golden Sun

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:44 pm

Post by Isis »

I submitted this as a joke setup to a monthly contest to chilly reception. But it seems better than most junk my mind effuses so I wanted to present it more seriously without the joke presentation/mechanics to see if there was a fatal flaw I was missing or presentation alone was the issue.
2
Mafia Compulsively Vengeful Alchemists

9
Vanilla Townies

Skip odd nights.
Night 4, the mafia must turn a townie into a
Town Alchemist
instead of performing a factional nightkill.
At the start of Day Four, the moderator publicly identifies which living players are Alchemists, and those players lose their voting privilege. Instead of voting for an elimination day four, players vote on which Alchemist they'd like to ascend the lighthouse. The Alchemist who ascends the lighthouse immediately wins the game for their faction.
Last edited by Isis on Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:01 pm

Post by Isis »

Since it's a pretty associative setup I also want to muse about 3 scum forms:
Spoiler:
3
Mafia Compulsively Vengeful Alchemists

8
Vanilla Townies

Nightless, Town Alchemist is kept in updated preference list.
Ascension day triggers when there are exactly four townies.
?
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:11 pm

Post by Isis »

Actually the setup in post #1 is maybe just better.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:02 am

Post by Kerset »

It feels scumsided. It is really hard to pick one correct person out of 3. There is always one person in town that would be considered scummy.
giv me pagetop :(
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:17 am

Post by Isis »

In a normal 3:2 eLo, if everyone agrees 1 certain townie in the town is the scummiest person is the game, they also lose, as long as the scum don't mess up and NK that person.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:26 am

Post by Hectic »

In post 0, Isis wrote:Night 4, the mafia must turn a townie into a Town Alchemist instead of performing a factional nightkill.
Do you mean Night 3? It's interesting that scum could even plan ahead on who they're gonna alchemise and set up some fake looking interactions with them.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:41 am

Post by Isis »

I think I mean night 4, I counted and recounted a jillion times.

Eleven players to start.
Four eliminated by daily decisions D1-4
One killed night two by factional NK
Leaving the day 5 decision as 11 minus 5, 3 alchemists and three nononalchemist townies.
If scum is hit, it's four eliminations, one venge and one night kill, 11-6, and there will be five players left, two alchemists and three nonalchemist townies.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:37 am

Post by Hectic »

In post 0, Isis wrote:At the start of Day Four
Ah, so this happens on day 5 then. That makes sense. The looking for associatives factor in the 3 alchemist/3 town scenario sounds like a lot of fun. The 2/3 scenario is more "normal" but still interesting.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:29 am

Post by Something_Smart »

My EV program gives the first variant 20% for town and the second variant 9% for town.

Which is about what I was expecting. Practically I do expect town winrates to be higher than this, because as you said associatives are important and having the scumteam narrowed down to 3 possibilities with three conftowns that can discuss to try to figure it out is pretty powerful... but even still. It's probably scumsided.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:35 am

Post by Hectic »

That doesn't sound right... at worst, town have a 1/3 to win on day 5 in the first setup. How did you get 20% overall?
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:45 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Because my program assumes that the players are sorted from towniest to least towny, and scum will choose the scummiest townie to be the alchemist.

I can run it again with random alchemist selection, but I think this method is a more accurate simulation than assuming random decisions.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:48 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I guess given the WIFOM of the selection, there's probably some kind of Nash equilibrium that sounds annoying to calculate.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:14 am

Post by Hectic »

Ah, I see. This program sounds fancy, is it a trade secret or do you have it out there for others to use too?
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:15 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I mean it's like 100 lines of python code. I can post it if you want.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:51 am

Post by Hectic »

Go for it. I'm interested.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:24 am

Post by Something_Smart »

It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:23 am

Post by Kanna »

Even though EV says it’s scumsided, I think it sounds okay...

I’m reminded of treestump express where the final lylo is 2:1 and similarly, town need to correctly pick 1 out of 3 while there are conftown treestumps present. That seemed fair, should this be too? Is it much harder to pick one town correctly out of scum?

Or maybe it is scumsided due to not having confirmed scum associations, but I don’t think by much

Regardless, I like this as an idea!
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"My heart is shaped like a harp with strings that go wiggle wiggle when someone is acting like an earnest bucketheaded townie incapable of wrong" ~ Isis
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:29 pm

Post by Isis »

I editted the python to try the setup in the OP as an 8:2 without the NK and I got 24.44%. I -think- that's tolerable. Vanilla nightless is 33.3%, and the last time it was run it was a town stomp and historically towns have done well in it. And Vanilla nightless does not have any townsided mechanics, while this has some associative information in the final phase.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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