[SETUP] What is Trust

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:19 am

I'm currently unsure if this concept has been done before, and I think it breaks one of the Mistakes of Setup Design a small bit but I was wondering if this has potential.

What Is Trust

Vanilla Townie

Town Unaware Flagbearer

Mafia Goon

Mafia Traitor

Mafia Shady

/

Town Shady

SETUP INFORMATION

Nightless
Shady is randomly chosen to be Mafia or Town. Their name is revealed SoD1.
Shady will be told who the Mafia Goon is SoD1.
If Shady is Mafia, they will be told who the Town Flagbearer is.
Mafia Goon and Mafia Traitor will both be able to communicate in the Mafia PT, both will be aware of Shady's alignment.
Only alignments will flip among eliminations.
Town Flagbearer acts as just a Vanilla Townie if it's a Town Shady.
Win conditions are the following:
- Town Shady eliminated. Mafia Wins
- Town Flagbearer eliminated. Mafia wins.
- Town eliminated twice in a row. Mafia wins.
- Mafia Goon eliminated with a Town Shady and Mafia Traitor is eliminated. Town wins.
- Mafia Shady eliminated and Mafia Traitor eliminated. Town Wins.

Spoiler: Sample Role-cards

Spoiler: Original Version

Isis · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:11 pm

I find this a bit brainboggling. I can't wrap my head around it. Not sure if that is good or bad.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:28 pm

In post 1, Isis wrote:I find this a bit brainboggling. I can't wrap my head around it. Not sure if that is good or bad.

Do you want me to try and reword it for you?

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:35 pm

At the start of the game, both the Goon and Shady are aware of the other and Shady's alignment, whether that be town or mafia.

If Shady is Mafia they are told who the Town Flagbearer is (the flagbearer themselves gets a VT RC). And if they're Town aligned they will know the Mafia. Thus no matter what alignment Shady is, they will force a 1v1 immediately but lynching in there will end up with a 50% win/loss rate so yeeting outside of that to gain information is Town's best bet for D1 and then go from there.

Town!Shady eliminated - Mafia win
Scum!Shady eliminated - Town win
Goon eliminated - Town win
Town Flagbearer eliminated - Mafia win
Town eliminated twice - Mafia win

callforjudgement · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:59 pm

Trying to express the gameplay of the original setup in a manner that gets to the essentials: you end up with a guaranteed 1v1 on day 1, but you can work out which of the players in the 1v1 is scum by working out whether the other four players are 3:1 or 4:0.

This implies that the maximum EV line is to eliminate outside the 1v1 Day 1 (looking for a hypothetical Shady buddy), and inside Day 2. This gives an EV of 62.5%.

I think one major problem here is that Shady has no scumhunting to do, D1; if Shady is town, then town will be looking for scum in a pool of 4 town, so it doesn't matter who they choose. This means that a town Shady will be entirely apathetic during this part of the game, and a scum Shady will have no reason not to mimic that. This in turn means that the only associative tell you can pick up from the setup is that the Goon will be trying to pretend that this is a 1 scum setup (and to avoid the D1 elimination, which would prove that it isn't and thus lead to a forced town victory). It ends up playing pretty similarly to Conspiracy (which isn't really Mafia but does seem to work to some extent as a social deduction game), except that instead of trying to see the difference between x:0 and 1:x, you're trying to see the difference between 3:1 and 4:0 which is much harder.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:08 pm

In post 4, callforjudgement wrote:Trying to express the gameplay of the original setup in a manner that gets to the essentials: you end up with a guaranteed 1v1 on day 1, but you can work out which of the players in the 1v1 is scum by working out whether the other four players are 3:1 or 4:0.

Yeah that's the plan of the setup. The main concept was to create a 1v1 right off the bat in a smallish quick setup.

In post 4, callforjudgement wrote:This implies that the maximum EV line is to eliminate outside the 1v1 Day 1 (looking for a hypothetical Shady buddy), and inside Day 2. This gives an EV of 62.5%.

I'm not exactly sure of setup terminology like EV could you help explain this to me? But 62.5% seems like it's not too balanced on one side assuming it's like expected outcome of the game.

In post 4, callforjudgement wrote:I think one major problem here is that Shady has no scumhunting to do, D1; if Shady is town, then town will be looking for scum in a pool of 4 town, so it doesn't matter who they choose. This means that a town Shady will be entirely apathetic during this part of the game, and a scum Shady will have no reason not to mimic that. This in turn means that the only associative tell you can pick up from the setup is that the Goon will be trying to pretend that this is a 1 scum setup (and to avoid the D1 elimination, which would prove that it isn't and thus lead to a forced town victory). It ends up playing pretty similarly to Conspiracy (which isn't really Mafia but does seem to work to some extent as a social deduction game), except that instead of trying to see the difference between x:0 and 1:x, you're trying to see the difference between 3:1 and 4:0 which is much harder.

I'll attempt to rework this into a setup where Shady hold a lot of cards but still has to deduct to win as either alignment.

Spoiler:

This creates two groups of players. A 1v1 between Shady and their target as well as a 2v4 or a 1v5 depending on Shady's alignment. Town!Shady still has to find the last scum and scum!Shady has to still figure out who the other scum is etc. Amount of VT's there are is questionable, thoughts on this change? I think it complicates the setup a bit more than it was before but I think it may be for the best

Isis · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:54 pm

I meant I couldn't grasp the optimal strategies, although after going afk and coming back I think I can wrap my mind around why not-claiming isn't a viable strategy for Shady.

This should play very similar to Conspiracy, which is an okay social deduction game. I would probably enjoy Vengeful 5p more than a Conspiracy-eque experience, but Conspiracy-types setups are interesting social deduction experiences.

I haven't read the rev2 yet.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:13 pm

I think I messed up on that revision, let me make an official revision in a second

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:49 pm

Spoiler: Revision 1

I was thinking maybe the Traitor needs to be eliminated in all win-cons in order for town to win.

That means Mafia Shady and the Traitor needs to die for a Town win.
Mafia Goon (with Town Shady) and Traitor needs to die for a Town win.
Thoughts?

Isis · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:55 am

This might be one of those cases where "balance and EV are not the same thing" and making the setup scumsided EV by requiring the town to find a second mafia after eliminating scumshady is the best design.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:33 am

Do you think that the second revision is possibly balanced enough to be submitted to be run?

Jake The Wolfie · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:21 pm

What is traitorous about the Mafia Traitor? So far, there is nothing special about it.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:07 pm

In post 11, Jake The Wolfie wrote:What is traitorous about the Mafia Traitor? So far, there is nothing special about it.

It's a named Goon so the setup can be easily absorbed, they need to be eliminated in addition to the Goon (if there's a Town Shady) or the Mafia Shady in order for Town to win.

Isis · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:53 pm

I think this setup is runnable, I can't think of how I would improve it. I'd love if others looked at it.

Jake The Wolfie · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:49 am

In post 0, JacksonVirgo wrote:Mafia Goon eliminated with a Town Shady and Mafia Traitor is eliminated. Town wins.

Wait, what?

Both mafia and the Town Shady eliminated = town win?

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:52 pm

In post 14, Jake The Wolfie wrote:
In post 0, JacksonVirgo wrote:Mafia Goon eliminated with a Town Shady and Mafia Traitor is eliminated. Town wins.
Wait, what?

Both mafia and the Town Shady eliminated = town win?

Did you read the setup?

Shady is randomly chosen their alignment. If they are Mafia they will be told who the Town Flagbearer is. And will be told the goon regardless, not the Traitor.

If Shady is Town. Town has to kill the Goon and the Traitor to win.
If Shady is Mafia. Town has to kill the Shady and the Traitor to win.

This forces a 1v1 from the start, which they likely won't act in since eliminating wrong means an instant loss. However they have to eliminate in their D2 otherwise if they hit town twice they will lose.

Isis · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:06 pm

It's maybe better to write it as a 2 setup semiopen? Not sure

Auro · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:25 am

Interesting setup!

Early thoughts: seems like a strong strategy (in the scum!Shady case) to have the Traitor claim Shady and start a 1v1 with the real Shady - feeding off town paranoia about acting in the 1v1 at the start, and

also

making it hard to eliminate the other if one does flip red. Given the high scum EV in this case, it feels like the optimal move for town is to

always

eliminate within the 1v1 at the beginning.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:38 am

In post 17, Auro wrote:Interesting setup!

Early thoughts: seems like a strong strategy (in the scum!Shady case) to have the Traitor claim Shady and start a 1v1 with the real Shady - feeding off town paranoia about acting in the 1v1 at the start, and
also
making it hard to eliminate the other if one does flip red. Given the high scum EV in this case, it feels like the optimal move for town is to
always
eliminate within the 1v1 at the beginning.

Thank you!
Also Shady's name is announced to everyone at the start of D1 to stop exactly that. I want to force a real 1v1 at the start of the game not a possible false one.

Auro · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:08 am

Ah right, missed that

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:34 am

In post 16, Isis wrote:It's maybe better to write it as a 2 setup semiopen? Not sure

Techically that is what the setup is yeah. Do I have to say it's specifically semi-open in the title here?

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:02 pm

I ran this setup in the Micro queue here and I came to the conclusion that it's possible for the Mafia Shady to directly bus the Mafia Goon with a lot of benefits to be gotten. Town will think that's the Goon and they only need a Traitor eliminated to win and will be willing to side with the Shady (to eventually elim the Flagbearer before the Traitor). I am questioning whether or not that should be shot down by announcing the Town Flagbearer/Goon as well as the Shady or allow the setup to have a alternative play considering the Shady doesn't know who the Traitor is and thus could screw themselves.

Isis · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:59 am

Maybe Shady should die if the Goon is elimmed?

I don't know that announcing the flagbearer/goon is the right direction to go

Gypyx · Post Post #23 (ISO) » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:30 pm

that seems like a better idea to me yeah

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #24 (ISO) » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:45 pm

In post 22, Isis wrote:Maybe Shady should die if the Goon is elimmed?

I don't know that announcing the flagbearer/goon is the right direction to go

That doesn't sound like a bad idea, although would the Shady of both alignments be killed off once the Goon is eliminated? If that's the case there's no real use to hide role flips anymore.