[SETUP] Make It Count, Cowboy

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[SETUP] Make It Count, Cowboy

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:41 am

Post by Cook »

Disclaimer: this setup is adapted from a Town of Salem: Anticipation setup, a discord Mafia group who play with a significantly evolved version of Town of Salem's roles and rules, along with their own custom ones.


Mafia Gunslinger

Mafia Goon

Town Gunslinger

6
Vanilla Townies


Mafia Gunslinger is
not
informed of their partner.

No PTs.

Mafia are
not
granted a nightkill at first. Skip nights until they are.

At any time during the day a Gunslinger may sacrifice themselves to dayvig another player, with different results based on who they shoot:

If the Gunslinger shoots their own team, the shooter's team loses.

If the Gunslinger shoots the other team but not the enemy Gunslinger, the remaining Mafia member gains a nightkill.

If the Gunslinger shoots the other Gunslinger, the shooter's team wins.


If the Town Gunslinger is eliminated outside of a shot, then the Mafia Gunslinger is vanillaized and the game remains nightless.

If the Mafia Gunslinger is eliminated outside of a shot, the surviving Mafia Goon is granted a nightkill.




This seems more like a marathon-speed game.




Spoiler: Role PMs
Vanilla TownWelcome! You are a
Vanilla Townie
.
— You have no special abilities outside your voice and your vote.

You win once the Mafia is eliminated, or if the Mafia Gunslinger is shot.


Town GunslingerWelcome! You are a
Town Gunslinger
.
— On any day after Day One you may post in the thread
SHOOT: Playername
to attempt to kill the enemy Gunslinger.
— If you target a member of the Town, your team will lose.
— If you target the Mafia Goon, your kill will succeed but you will die.
— If you target the Mafia Gunslinger, your team will win.

You win once the Mafia is eliminated, or if you shoot the Mafia Gunslinger.


Converted GunslingerThe Mafia Gunslinger died without your intervention. You have now become a
Vanilla Townie
.
— You have no special abilities outside your voice and your vote.

You win once the remaining Mafia member is eliminated.


Mafia GoonWelcome! You are a
Mafia Goon
.

You are partnered with XXX,
Mafia Gunslinger
. They do not know who you are.
— You have no special abilities outside your voice and your vote, and the knowledge of your partner.

You win once the Mafia reach parity with the Town or if the Town Gunslinger is shot.


Goon With A GunA Gunslinger has fallen without the intervention of the other one. As a result,
your team now possesses a factional kill and PT.


Mafia GunslingerWelcome! You are a
Mafia Gunslinger
.

You have a Mafia Goon partner who knows who you are.
— On any day after Day One you may post in the thread SHOOT: Playername to attempt to kill the enemy Gunslinger.
— If you target the Mafia Goon, your team will lose.
— If you target a member of the Town, your kill will succeed but you will die.
— If you target the Town Gunslinger, your team will win.

You win once the Mafia reach parity with the Town, or if you shoot the Town Gunslinger.


Converted GoonThe Town Gunslinger died without your intervention. You have now become a
Mafia Goon
.

You know your partner is XXXX. You now share a PT.

— At night you may target a player to kill them.

You win once the Mafia reach parity with the Town.
Last edited by Cook on Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:44 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

i like it
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:06 pm

Post by Isis »

seems cool
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:05 am

Post by Cook »

I can see a quick downside to this — Mafia Gunslinger always shoots at the start of the game and it always turns into MeLo the day following, unless they shoot the Gunslinger.

Perhaps Gunslinger should also be uninformed D1, such that on a random shot, it's a 1/6 mafia loss, 1/6 mafia win, 4/6 game continues.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:19 am

Post by OkaPoka »

Scum gunslinger could also just holster until they are in danger
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:28 am

Post by Cook »

But also consider too, with an informed mafia gunslinger, they can at the start of the first day immediately dayvig someone which will
always
work in the Mafia's favor — with a 1/5 chance of simply winning from this gamble and a 4/5 chance that the game becomes a 1:4 mountainous game with a night phase next — meaning the remaining Goon simply shoots a townleader and then it's MeLo.

Without an informed Mafia Gunslinger, that immediate dayvig now is only a 1/6 chance for an immediate win, a 2/3 chance that the game becomes 1:4 mountainous with night phase next, and a 1/6 chance that instead the Mafia loses.


Also fun note: gunslingers can't claim publicly as the other slinger will simply shoot them, which is a neat perversion on the "power townie claims and leads" mechanic, such that it'll only work
after
a Gunslinger has been found, which is unlikely to happen as they'll simply "venge" once someone has intent to hammer.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:05 pm

Post by Cook »

Well that seems settled then.

Expect this in the Open queue at some point in the future.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:08 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

instead of being uninformed d1, just make gunslingers unable to shoot d1?
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:09 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

my 2 cents is traitor gameplay is complete ass to play
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:29 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Doesnt the theme of this game run directly contrary to optimal play for town (at least on first glance)?

I think it also breaks to scum just being gutsy? If they shoot first post its a 1/6 game over in loss, 1/6 game over in win, 4/6 game continues as 4:1 where there are zero interactions and town now just has to get lucky (53% scum win from that point? Its minimally 40% and feels like town just chooses two players they dont want to win). Pretty much I think you cant allow them to shoot D1 or the optimal move becomes killing someone in their very first post, as scum should have an over 50% win rate from there as town literally is just for lack of a better word shooting in the dark.

Seems like some 5:2 vengeful mixed with that old setup that was 3:2 and first town out got a venge kill that if hit right scum ended game. Feels more like its a setup that is intended to trick players into making theoretically bad moves.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:06 pm

Post by Cook »

What if VTs were increased to 6, thus basically making it 7:2 mountainous with quasi-flagbearer exploders and no D1 guns?

Here, I'll run through this.

Day One
Town Lim
– 6:2 nightless
Town Guns Lim
– 6:2 mountainous
Goon Lim
– 7:1 nightless
Scum Guns Lim
– 7:1 mountainous





Night One From Town Guns Limturns into a 5:2 mountainous


From here,
Town Lim
makes 4:2 mountainous. Nightkill makes it 3:2. ELO.

But a
Scum Lim
makes 5:1 mountainous. Nightkill makes it 4:1.




Night One From Scum Guns Limturns into a 6:1 mountainous


From here,
Town Lim
makes 5:1 mountainous. Nightkill makes it 4:1.

But a
Scum Lim
is a
Town Win





Night One From Town Elimturns into 6:2 with guns in play tomorrow.


Town Shoots Town
is a
Scum Win


Town Shoots Scum
makes 4:1 mountainous which turns into 3:1 mountainous. ELo.

Town Shoots Guns
is a
Town Win.


Scum Shoots Town
makes 5:1 mountainous which turns into 4:1 mountainous.

Scum Shoots Guns
is a
Scum Win.


Scum Shoots Scum
is a
Town Win
.

Limming Town
makes it 5:2 with guns in play.

Limming Town Guns
makes it 5:2 mountainous which turns into 4:1 mountainous.

Limming Scum
makes it 6:1 with guns in play.

Limming Scum Guns
makes it 6:1 mountainous which turns into 5:1 mountainous.




NIGHT ONE FROM SCUM ELIMturns into 6:1 with guns in play tomorrow.


Town Shoots Guns
is a
Town Win


Town Shoots Town
makes it 4:1 mountainous.

Scum Shoots Guns
is a
Scum Win


Scum Shoots Town
is a
Town Win
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:06 am

Post by Cook »

added rough draft role PMs
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:26 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Yeah that might work better. Need to think about it but otherwise I think if you give scum D1 ability to use their power they logically should ASAP to remove any sort of interactions, even though in that scenario the goon should just ignore their partner and even be fine killing them off immediately. Makes me wonder if tweaking something from a really old game that was something like 7-2 "mountainous" but a twist was if both scum were alive N2 one of them would automatically die overnight.

I just still have a feeling that this game plays best for scum if they completely ignore their partner and both act like SKs (at least through first few days). Its an interesting concept, but it feels like there is going to be a clear path of optimization which shouldnt really exist in opens.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:35 pm

Post by Cook »

question: have you seen the part where the mafia has no nightkill until a gunslinger's died?
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:01 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 13, Cook wrote:question: have you seen the part where the mafia has no nightkill until a gunslinger's died?
Yep. I would actually modify it to "if either scum dies" where both turn into goons. Otherwise its almost too hard for scum to win with a D1 goon death. Or just tweak it... if either town/scum primary role are voted out they get a venge kill. If they hit other primary role they win.

I think you do have to at least handicap the scum GS into "cannot shoot Day One" (or maybe even D1 only?) though to make this work. It also starts running afoul of the issue of if scum dont both know each other, is it really mafia if there is no informed minority. Concept is interesting, im just trying to see how it plays out in practice and there seem to be moves that at least start detaching it from typical stuff.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:01 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

Now im not saying its broken or anything, but I think that if there are not at least two scum who know who each other are, or at least have a searching ability to find the other, it doesnt make actually seem like mafia. If the scum GS can get away with it, trying to eliminate the entire aspect of an "informed minority" pretty much removes any chance of scum being able to be truly "caught"
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:53 am

Post by Cook »

In post 15, LlamaFluff wrote:Now im not saying its broken or anything, but I think that if there are not at least two scum who know who each other are, or at least have a searching ability to find the other, it doesnt make actually seem like mafia. If the scum GS can get away with it, trying to eliminate the entire aspect of an "informed minority" pretty much removes any chance of scum being able to be truly "caught"
fair. my current compromise (and not a permanent one) is that if the town gunslinger dies without being killed by the scum GS (rarely, if ever, unfortunately) that the now-two goons are granted a PT.

Should it just be a night-talk PT?
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:07 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

Maybe just get creative with how the GS kill works?

Make it Goon-Goon (2:5) who have daytalk but no NK to start, but get one collective shot that they have to agree on in the PT. If they hit the Town GS they win. If they hit VT they lose. Then town GS essentially stays the same. Scum team has no kill unless one of them gets taken out by the GS. If they get voted out game remains nightless forever.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:28 am

Post by lendunistus »

this rolelist seems to be from town of salem: anticipation (albeit the TOS version has a shit ton of roles added)

should be in the custom rolelists section: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KtE ... sMNT0/edit#

not sure if this is where it was originally invented though
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:13 pm

Post by Cook »

In post 18, lendunistus wrote:this rolelist seems to be from town of salem: anticipation (albeit the TOS version has a shit ton of roles added)

should be in the custom rolelists section: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KtE ... sMNT0/edit#

not sure if this is where it was originally invented though
Thank you, that's where I'm remembering it from. Adding to the OP.
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