[SETUP] Pick the Deck

[Ausuka]

Principles of the Setup:

At the beginning of the game, 12 town and 3 mafia are selected. This is intended as compensation for the mafia knowing the entire setup in advance and designing it to their advantage (to the extent the system allows it.)
Mafia have the opportunity to design the setup in pregame.
The design is based on a points system. By default, Town need at least 20 points worth of roles against an all-scum team. If mafia get power roles this adds to the points town needs; for example if the mafia get 5 points worth of roles, town need at least 25 points.

Town Roles

Investigative

Cop - 12 points
Gunsmith - 11 points, subtract 1 point for every town role with a gun and every mafia role without a gun
Watcher - 10 points
Traffic Analyst - 10 points, subtract 1 point for every player with Neighbour or Mason role
Neapolitan - 1 point for every Vanilla Townie that exists
Detective - 7 points
Psychologist - 7 points
Tracker - 6 points
Follower - 6 points
Friendly Neighbour - 4 points
Rolecop - 2 points
Motion Detector - 2 points
Mailman - 1 point
Fruit Vendor - 1 point

Protective

Doctor - 8 points
Rolestopper - 7 points
Bodyguard - 4 points
Hider - 2 points

Roleblocking

Jailkeeper - 8 points
Alien - 7 points
Roleblocker - 6 points

Killing

Vigilante - 8 points

Passive (Modifiers can’t apply to these roles)

Mason triplet - 15 points
Mason pair - 10 points
Universal Backup - 6 points
Innocent Child - 5 points
Bulletproof - 3 points
Vengeful - 3 points
1 shot Bulletproof - 2 points
Backup of role - *0.4 points of role
Backup of role which doesn’t exist - negative 1 point

Town Modifiers

Additive

Loud - negative 1 point
Ascetic - negative 1 point
Compulsive - negative 2 points
Macho - negative 2 points

Multiplicative

1 shot - multiply points total by 0.3
2 shot - multiply points total by 0.5
3 shot - multiply points total by 0.7
Odd night - multiply points total by 0.6
Even night - multiply points total by 0.4
Novice - multiply points total by 0.6

Special

Weak:
If investigative, worth 9 points
If protective, worth 7 points
If roleblocking, worth 6 points
If killing, worth 4 points

Loyal:
If investigative, worth 10 points
If protective, worth +1 point from original role.
If roleblocking, worth -3 points from original role.
If killing, worth 3 points

Mafia Roles

Investigative

Rolecop - 4 points
Tracker - 3 points
Follower - 3 points
Neapolitan - 3 points
Traffic Analyst - 1 point for each Mason that exists
Role Watcher - 2 points
Detective - 2 points
Gunsmith - 2 points
Psychologist - 1 point
Motion Detector - 1 point
Voyeur - 1 point
Mailman - 1 point
Fruit Vendor - 1 point

Protective

Rolestopper - 4 points
Doctor - 3 points
Bodyguard - 1 point
Hider - 1 point

Roleblocking

Alien - 7 points
Jailkeeper - 6 points
Roleblocker - 6 points

Passive (Modifiers can’t apply to these roles)

Universal Backup - 3 points
Bulletproof - 2 points
1 shot Bulletproof - 1 point
Backup of role - *0.4 points of role
Traitor (Knows mafia and can communicate, but cannot kill and is endgamed if last mafia alive) - negative 2 points

Mafia Modifiers

Additive

Ascetic - +5 points
Loud - +1 point
Compulsive - 0 points
Macho - 0 points

Multiplicative

1 shot - multiply points total by 0.3
2 shot - multiply points total by 0.5
3 shot - multiply points total by 0.7
Odd night - multiply points total by 0.6
Even night - multiply points total by 0.4
Novice - multiply points total by 0.6

Notes

IC is activated. You can't use more than 12 town roles or more than 3 mafia roles. Roleblocking resolution is jailkeeper> Alien > Roleblocker. No duplicate roles are allowed, except for mason and neighbour. Additionally, any modifier may appear only two times at maximum. No multitasking. Daytalk is allowed. Mafia can assign roles to their members.

This is obviously inspired by games like Pick your Power. I think playing mafia in this game would be really fun, and even as town the nature of the game could make things more interesting. Obviously, this setup is nigh impossible to balance perfectly due to its complexity. Nevertheless, I've tried to hash some things out in private with helpful reviewers, to improve the player experience. If you think this idea has potential but notice any flaws in the implementation, please let me know!

[Something_Smart]

I like the concept here, and you've already done a good job thwarting a few of my breaking ideas. It does feel like it's not all that different from a C9++ style setup (procedurally generated with a massive number of possible setups, approximating balance but not guaranteeing it), except with a boatload of extra WIFOM. And it seems like balance knowledge is

extremely

valuable for mafia, to the point where if they don't have a mechanics expert, they're liable to mess up or at least not really enjoy the design phase.

(Also, neighbor is a little sad when duplicate roles aren't allowed )

[Ausuka]

Neighbour and mason are intended to be exceptions to that rule! I'll edit the post to reflect that

I did worry about the complexity being an obstacle? But like, I think there are fairly simple setups that mafia can throw together and a lot of the complexity is optional?

[Ausuka]

I think the differences to something like C9++ would be

1) the mafia get to design the setup; how fun this is is probably situational, but if I was mafia I'd probably have a blast with it, especially if I knew the other mafia

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

[Something_Smart]

I guess, but I don't think the simple setups are generally the best for scum. Or at least, they're incredibly swingy.

I think weak is probably overvalued because scum know to look for crumbs.

Ninja description mentions watcher, which isn't an available town role. Did you intend for it to be?

Do scum get to assign their chosen PR's to their members or is it random?

[Something_Smart]

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

Yeah, I feel like outguessing a group of people whose identities you don't even know and who are actively incentivized to trick you seems like a fool's errand. But, still better than closed games that come down to outguessing the mod (this doesn't happen to all closed games, but it's a risk depending on what scum claim).

[Something_Smart]

I think the best gimmicky setup for scum to do that I can think of so far is to throw in a bunch of kill-stopping roles (doctor, rolestopper, jailkeeper, etc) and no investigative power. Even if the town manages to stop a few kills, they get no info from those kills being stopped because they could have been stopped a variety of different ways. We could maybe approximate that to 12:3 mountainous with two kills skipped? Though especially if scum give themselves a roleblocker, even that's a bit optimistic. Scum might also be able to get away with a gated strongman of some kind, depending on the numbers. I would expect that setup to be extremely unpleasant to play as town, even if it's not too scumsided.

[Ausuka]

I guess, but I don't think the simple setups are generally the best for scum. Or at least, they're incredibly swingy.

I think weak is probably overvalued because scum know to look for crumbs.

Ninja description mentions watcher, which isn't an available town role. Did you intend for it to be?

Do scum get to assign their chosen PR's to their members or is it random?

yeah, i was editing some roles out and i accidentally cut watcher i think. i do want that, so i've added it back

i've edited the op to clarify other things

i see your point with weak

[RadiantCowbells]

theres a lot of ways to abuse this to be heavily scum favored and im not sure how fixable it is because i generally feel like point systems are a poor idea for things like this

[Ausuka]

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

Yeah, I feel like outguessing a group of people whose identities you don't even know and who are actively incentivized to trick you seems like a fool's errand. But, still better than closed games that come down to outguessing the mod (this doesn't happen to all closed games, but it's a risk depending on what scum claim).

i mean, that's true, but i feel like the points system does give town some info to work with?

the killstopping one could be a thing, although i find it hard to imagine scum would want to make themselves, like, basically unable to kill? a full strongman could make it viable?

so, doc + rolestopper + roleblocker + jailkeeper + even night vig vs strongman?

i kind of have a hard time imagining scum choosing to play that? it seems unpleasant for the strongman, but if they have a really strong player i suppose they could make it work

[RadiantCowbells]

essentially when you design a points system for something like this you have to outguess every possible way for scum to optimize the setup for their team and counter it

and generally it ends in a situation where the scum team has like a very limited number reasonable choices or else they are playing a townsided setup because of all the restrictions in setup building in play or else scum will be chain picking favorable setups for them when available

[Ausuka]

yeah, idk. i tried i guess

[Something_Smart]

i mean, that's true, but i feel like the points system does give town some info to work with?

the killstopping one could be a thing, although i find it hard to imagine scum would want to make themselves, like, basically unable to kill? a full strongman could make it viable?

so, doc + rolestopper + roleblocker + jailkeeper + even night vig vs strongman?

i kind of have a hard time imagining scum choosing to play that? it seems unpleasant for the strongman, but if they have a really strong player i suppose they could make it work

Maybe, they can also run a variety of different kinds of strongmen (novice being probably the best value), along with a backup and/or a roleblocking role of their own. I wouldn't expect killing to be

that

hard; it is a 15 player setup, and by the time it gets down to mini size there's a decent chance at least one PR is dead, even if they aren't hunting them with NK's.

I do agree with RC overall, that you are never going to perfectly balance the points system, so either you allow for some scumsided setups, or you make it so the most scumsided setups are balanced and then scum have to know the exact meta or get rolled.

What if you compromised a bit on the concept, so scum only choose some of the roles, or have a random limited set of roles to choose from? That would prevent there from being objectively optimal options that scum should always do. That goes a little more the way of Haunted Village, which is not balanced either but at least has a more viable concept.

[RH9]

Wait.
Ausuka, would it also be worse or better if Town is allowed to choose as well and the moderator combines the proposals of all players to form a single setup?
But then, that might end up making it somewhat like a restricted uPick.
The current setup does seem kind of interesting though.

[Ausuka]

Wait.
Ausuka, would it also be worse or better if Town is allowed to choose as well and the moderator combines the proposals of all players to form a single setup?
But then, that might end up making it somewhat like a restricted uPick.
The current setup does seem kind of interesting though.

I considered something like this but I felt like it would be much more difficult to prevent extremely townsided setups since town can't communicate with each other and you can't regulate things like duplicates

[Enchant]

Soooo...

Mafia can't make Weak Cop (9 points for weak on investigative+12 for cop=21) because?

[Ausuka]

Soooo...

Mafia can't make Weak Cop (9 points for weak on investigative+12 for cop=21) because?

I mean, this idea probably doesn't work anyway, but Weak Cop is just 9 points. The idea is any weak investigative is the same utility, weak cop is a nerf to cop so it's less points

[Enchant]

Mafia can't just insert both Loyal and Weak?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Ninja should have different weight for different roles it interacts with because not all roles it interacts with are created equal. It was designed to counter Watcher, NOT Tracker.

[Ausuka]

What if you compromised a bit on the concept, so scum only choose some of the roles, or have a random limited set of roles to choose from? That would prevent there from being objectively optimal options that scum should always do. That goes a little more the way of Haunted Village, which is not balanced either but at least has a more viable concept.

I want you to know I am not ignoring this and will probably either do something like this or scrap it altogether

I am just not sure what direction to go with it right now

[Ausuka]

Mafia can't just insert both Loyal and Weak?

That's not allowed

I think Ninja should have different weight for different roles it interacts with because not all roles it interacts with are created equal. It was designed to counter Watcher, NOT Tracker.

I did think about this but then I was like, if mafia want to spend points on a partial tracker counter that's kind of on them?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think maybe allowing the scumteam to pick their power level and power roles before the town roles are generated might be an enticing idea
I really don’t see how you can make a setup resembling Pick Your Poison without a meta game strat existing

[RH9]

Wait.
Ausuka, would it also be worse or better if Town is allowed to choose as well and the moderator combines the proposals of all players to form a single setup?
But then, that might end up making it somewhat like a restricted uPick.
The current setup does seem kind of interesting though.

I considered something like this but I felt like it would be much more difficult to prevent extremely townsided setups since town can't communicate with each other and you can't regulate things like duplicates

I see.

[Enchant]

I saw this (well like one) idea on wiki.

Small Street or something like that. You can look if you want.

[Irrelephant11]

I think this is awesome (Ausuka showed it to me before posting here and I gave minor feedback).

I'm curious if anyone wants to try to make the "overly scumsided setups" that a setup like this supposedly threatens to create. I think it's easy to suggest an obvious scumsided meta would come about, and harder to prove it

Like, taking S_S's idea that a bunch of town protectives would be scumsided:
Doctor (8)
Rolestopper (7)
Jailkeeper (8)
Roleblocker (6)
9 VT
-
1-shot strongman (.3x12 so 4)
Backup strongman (.4x12 so 5)
Goon

Town now has 4 protectives who, once claimed, are semi-cleared (because if they're not the TPRs, who fills the giant power gap? It's not like scum will want to jump into that mechanical PoE w/ a fakeclaim most of the time)

Town has a good chance of stopping 2 kills, meaning scum has to miselim 6 times before town elims the 3 mafia. That doesn't feel that scumsided to me?? Especially because as soon as a mafia strongman flips, the four TPRs are basically confirmed town. Maybe scum busses the 1-shot strongman to activate their backup strongman. Town then has a reasonable chance at guessing that happened by way of setup spec, and knows to look for bussing. I think the open nature of the setup eliminates a lot of the fears of scumsidedness people are expressing