[Complex] Survivor: Pantheon [Congrats Mist and Noraa!]

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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[Complex] Survivor: Pantheon [Congrats Mist and Noraa!]

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:00 pm

Post by PrivateI »

VashtaNeurotic, Creativemod1, and PrivateI present...


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Reviewed and listmodded by Cephrir. Many thanks to Reck.


If you would like to play or spectate, you should check out the application here. The application deadline is June 16th, and the game is planned to start the following weekend, on June 19th.


NOTE: PLEASE READ RULE {25} As it contains important information for the format of this game.


{ GENERAL RULES }

{01} This is a game. The main objective is to have fun fit for the Gods; so no excessive flaming, spamming, or otherwise being a jerk. Toxicity and personal attacks by players (whether they're still in the game or have been eliminated) or by spectators will not be tolerated.

{02} This is a game. The secondary objective is to win.

{03} We are not infallible, so if we make a Goderating mistake, please point it out and we will correct it if needed.

{04} We have worked extensively to produce a game that is enjoyed by all involved. As such, we promise to offer each player respect but expect to be shown the same in return. We also expect you to respect all other players.

{05} Survivor: Pantheon is ANONYMOUS. All participants are strictly prohibited from so much as hinting to their own identities or implying another player's identity. This DOES NOT include your confessional. If you are talking with other people outside of this forum, you must not state or imply that you are playing in this game. If you are talking with other players on this forum, try not to say anything that would allow people to easily ID you. Communication outside the private message system is also forbidden until otherwise stated. Failure to follow this rule can result in a variety of consequences ranging from a terse warning to one's elimination from the game. We reserve the right to determine the severity of possible infractions.

{06} Exercise common sense. If you are unsure as to whether an action conflicts with the rules, ask. Yes, this is a competition, but do not attempt to undermine challenges or game mechanics for your own gain. This violates both the spirit of the game and common respect mentioned above. If intentional cheating occurs, you will punished accordingly.

{07} Private communication with players outside of your tribe or eliminated players is strictly prohibited unless otherwise stated. PMs are only to be used for communication within your tribe unless otherwise specified. Spectators ARE NOT "in your tribe"--don't message them. Any player found in violation of this rule will be penalized.

{08} Any and all posting about this game outside the provided forums unless SPECIFICALLY STATED is illegal.

{09} The posting of Private Messages (whether via text (paraphrasing is fine) or via image) in a public forum is explicitly disallowed. You may, however, post them in your confessional. You are also prohibited from taking a screenshot of private messages and showing them to other players. Forwarding is not allowed. Quoting is NOT allowed in Private Messages, as is pretending to quote. You may paraphrase, and you may also quote very short snippets, like you might in a real conversation. If you have any questions about what does and does not constitute "quoting" or "paraphrasing", ask the moderators.

Don't show other players screenshots of anything in your confessional, any challenge scores, or any game information they do not already have access to, which includes items.

{10} This forum software allows group PMs to be created. You are free to use those; go hog wild.

{11} The moderators may discipline any player that breaks the rules however we see fit, depending on the specific situation. We also reserve the right to implement new rules if needed.

{12} If you have any issues that cannot be resolved by the game mods, or if the game mods are breaking rules, please report that to Anubis, aka Cephrir.

{13} Although this game takes place on an off-site forum, that forum is considered an exclave of Mafiascum.net. All MS conduct rules will apply as well as punishments for breaking them.

{GAME MECHANICS}


IMMUNITY CHALLENGES


{14} Winners of Immunity Challenges will be safe from elimination and cannot be voted out at the Tribal Council during that particular round. Note that giving away the Immunity Necklace is allowed, but only for the first 12 hours of a Tribal Council, and once passed it cannot be passed again. if the necklace is passed, an additional 24 hours will be added to the clock.

{15} The outcomes of all Challenges are final, except in case of incorrect tallying by the mods. if you see something we may have missed please bring it up, the Goderators will listen to you.

{16} We appreciate the fact that prospective players will enter this game with a range of skills. With this in mind, understand that we as mods can't cater to all players' needs and time constraints in challenges. We will, however, consider extreme circumstances brought to our attention making judgment calls if need be.

{16a} Unless otherwise stated, you MAY NOT USE OUTSIDE RESOURCES FOR ANY CHALLENGE.

{16b} Unless otherwise stated, you may not discuss any part of any immunity challenge with other players.

TRIBAL COUNCIL


{17} Tribal Councils are where players are voted out. Before the merge, only the losing tribe or tribes will visit Tribal Council, and will vote at least one player off. After the merge, all remaining players will go to Tribal Council, including immunity challenge winners.

{17a} When two players remain, the group of players voted out from a predetermined point on, the jury, will vote for who they want to win the game instead of who to eliminate.

{18} On a general basis, our goal is to ensure Tribal Councils last 24 hours from the end of the challenge, but may change at the mods discretion if need be. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE TIMER WHEN POSTED. if a player fails to submit a vote within the given time frame, they will receive a publicly known self-vote. in the event that a player knows he or she will be unable to vote by deadline, that player may notify the moderators and cast a conditional vote to avoid penalization.

{19} The results of Tribal Councils will not be posted before the deadline.

{19a} Unless an extension has been given, votes made after the deadline expires will not be counted, even if Goderators are late to posting results.

{20} The modification of votes after they have been submitted is allowed. Please submit this as a new post, do not edit, edits might be missed. Players are able to change their votes as many times as they want until the deadline expires.

{21} If a player has failed to vote three times, the mods may choose to eliminate that player at their discretion.

BREAKING TIES


{22} In the event of an initial tie, a revote shall take place. Players may only vote for one of the tied players, and all tied individuals may not vote. Reward items may not be used in this revote, but any reward items that have already been played WILL remain in play.

{22a} If a revote is necessary to break a tie, 24 hours will be added to the clock.

{23} If a majority is not met in the revote, all tied players and immune players become instantly immune and the remaining players will draw rocks for elimination. Note that this applies even if, say, a three-way tie becomes a two-way tie. In this scenario, only the players in the two-way tie would be immune for the rock draw. in a Final 4 TC, rocks will not be drawn, and tied players will participate in a tiebreaker challenge.

{23a} IF at any point in the game ALL players are ineligible to be voted for, we will end the TC, any items played at that TC will count as being played and will be lost.

We then go into a fresh new round and a new challenge (an already created backup challenge) All players will play for immunity as per normal and then we go into a TC as per normal

{23b} IF at any point in the game ALL BUT 2 players are ineligible to be voted for (and they are tied for votes), we will go to a revote. If in the revote it is still a tie then the 2 players who are tied for will go straight into the fire-making challenge.

TWISTS


{24} Twists will be implemented without warning or provocation throughout the game. The time and setting of each twist has already been determined, so as to neither give an unfair advantage or disadvantage to a player or group of players.

DIVINE INTERVENTIONS


{25} Divine Interventions are the primary (but not sole) method through which twists will be implemented throughout the game. At pretermined points during the game, the Goderators will randomly select a twist from the spoilered list below to implement across the game. These twists range from simply adding items in the game, to changing communication methods, to even changing the format of the game. However they will only affect the round they occur in, unless otherwise specified. While most players will not know when a Divine Intervention will next occur, you can be certain no back to back rounds will both have them.
While the interventions will be randomly selected there will be a way for some players to influence which intervention is chosen
. The list of possible divine interventions is as follows:

Spoiler: Divine Interventions
Abbasid Caliphate*
--The Islamic Golden Age brought prosperity upon all who experienced it due to an incredible cultural and informational exchange. Similarly, the best performing and worst performing member of each tribe in the next Immunity Challenge will receive a walkie talkie that must be given to someone not on their tribe. These walkie talkies will last for 2 tribes for which neither player is together. Additionally, players will only know what tribe won/lost the challenge, not the individual performance of any member. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option.

Byzantine Iconoclasm
- The Byzantine Iconoclasm was a period of turmoil in the 8th Century A.D where there was power struggle in the Byzantine church about whether the display of religious idols was heretical. As a result Emperor Leo III banned all religious icons and had many destroyed. Much like those icons, when this divine intervention is selected, all idols held by players will be destroyed.

Council of Nicaea*
- The First Council of Nicaea established that the holy trinity are homoousios or “of the same substance”, tonight, two tribes will become of the same substance and attend a joint tribal. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option.

Dante’s Inferno**
- Much like Dante was granted a view of the afterlife, the player who received the second most votes in the last Tribal Council will get to visit the jury forum, if applicable, for 24 hours. If no one received the second-most votes at the last Tribal Council, nothing will happen. If multiple people tied for the second most (nonzero) votes, all will visit the jury. This divine intervention can not occur until jury begins.

Deuterocanonical Books
--Exactly what "counts" as the Christian Scriptures continues to be debated by various Christian denominations. For the next Tribal Council, while idols can still be played, they'll be as relevant as Bel and the Dragon is to Protestants--they will not count.

Dia De Los Muertos**
- Dia de los muertos is a Mexican holiday where the dead briefly are allowed to be among the living and their families. As such this round the last 3 eliminated players will return to the game and participate in the following challenge and vote in tribal council (but will not be able to be voted for), after which they will leave. If a "ghost" wins the challenge, then no one will have immunity. This divine intervention can only occur after the merge.

Dolos*
- This Greek spirit was a master of cunning deception, craftiness, and treachery. However, he also was an apprentice to the titan (and master of fire) Prometheus. This round, you will be playing in an "Apprentice"ship of your own. You will be randomly split into two groups and must select a leader. The teams will compete in a gauntlet of creative challenges. The winning team will survive elimination, while the losing team's leader must choose two people to join them in the Boardroom. These three Boardroom people must plead their case, and, for the first time ever, a specially-selected judge will send home the person they believe to be the worst performing/least persuasive player, they can use any criteria to determine this. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option. This intervention can not occur the same round as a tribe swap.

Eumaeus and Philoetius
--Homer’s Odyssey details how Eumaeus and Philoetius helped Odysseus on his journey and eventual return of Ithaca. In honour of these two bros and their friendship, for the next two rounds, the SECOND person to vote for the person who is eliminated in that round (using timestamps) will receive any unused items held by that player. If someone changes their vote, and later votes for the person they were voting for originally, they will move to the “back of the pack” for purposes of counting these votes.

Lancelot and Guinevere
--This tale of forbidden love has delighted people for generations. For the next Tribal Council, you'll be able to do something forbidden yourself. In honour of Lancelot's sacrificial love for Guinevere, if you play an idol at the next Tribal Council, you can play it, not just for yourself, but for one other person as well. The idol effect will apply to BOTH people.

Lent
--It’s always good to be able to give something up for this Catholic holiday. In this round, if the players/tribe going to Tribal Council choose, they can NOT cast a vote, in exchange for an extra vote which can be cast until the Final Eight Tribal Council. Tribal immunity can be great, but sometimes giving it up can yield an even better reward...

Pyramus and Thisbe*
- This Babylonian tale of forbidden love begins with Pyramus and Thisbe separated from each other, talking to each other only through cracks in the walls between their houses. Similarly, you will only be able to talk to those you are separated from. This round you will only be allowed to talk to people on the OTHER tribes in the game. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option.

Raksha Bandhan*
--This Hindu holiday celebrates brotherhood and love, and literally means “The Bond of Protection”. In this round, the winning/best performing tribe/individual will also go to tribal council. HOWEVER, they will NOT vote someone out. They will instead vote for someone on the losing tribe to be immune. If no one receives a majority (or unique plurality) of the votes from the immune tribe/individuals, no immunity will be given. If immunity is given, it will not extend the deadline for Tribal Council, instead, it will be played as a hidden immunity idol on the person voted for. The best and worst performing tribes WILL be allowed to PM each other. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option. This divine intervention also can not be selected until at least 1 tribe swap has occurred.

The Moirai*
--These three Greek goddesses assign destinies to people at birth, far in advance of them performing great works. In a like manner, you will be assigning a destiny to a Tribal Council down the road. By the end of the next Tribal Council, cast a vote for someone in the game right now. If you are still alive at the Final Nine, your vote will be read at the Final Nine Tribal Council, in addition to the votes normally cast in that round. Be careful though, your vote will be read whether the person is safe, or was eliminated long before. If this divine intervention has not occurred by the time the merge arrives, it will no longer be selectable as an option.

The Prophet's Hadith
- Islamic texts say, among other things, "None of you (truly) believes until he wishes for his brother (or sister) what he wishes for himself." Today, we will put that principle to the test. By the end of this round, each player must choose one other player in the game. If two people pick each other, without anyone else picking them, both parties receive a "Steal-a-Vote" which allows a player to force one person's vote at a Tribal Council to not count, while they themselves cast two votes. However, if either player involved is picked by someone else, they will not receive a Steal-A-Vote. For example, if Tom picks Carrie, Carrie picks Tom, and Reynold picks Tom, Carrie would receive a Steal-A-Vote, no one else involved would.

The Year of Two Winters
- It is said that one winter while Paul Bunyan was working it was so cold that words would freeze in mid air, never moving far from where they were said. As such this next tribal the mods will create a list of the players, and you will only be able to talk to the players immediately above and below you on the list (depending on tribe size this may instead be 2 above and 2 below). The people on top/bottom of the list will count as next to each other for the purpose of this round.

Tower of Babel
- The Tower of Babel is an Old Testament story which details the hubris of humanity--they thought they could build a tower up to the heavens. Jehovah saw this and was displeased, and confounded their languages. For the next Challenge Phase you must communicate using a language assigned to you by the mods and google translate.

The Defense of Ulster
- The defense of Ulster happened when legendary hero Cú Chulainn challenged an entire army to a series of single combats, holding them off for months. In this round, instead of having a challenge and then tribal council, EVERYONE will first attend a 24 hour tribal council where who voted for whom will be PUBLIC. The person who is voted out will then instead have up to 12 hours to challenge one of the people who vote for them to a duel (they are allowed to submit early). Those two will then have 12 hours (though an extension can be granted) to schedule and fight their duel. The loser will be eliminated from the game. The duel will be revealed when this event is selected. This divine intervention cannot occur the round of a tribe swap.

Utnapishtim and the Flood
--The Epic of Gilgamesh details the story of Utnapishtim, who, at the behest of the God Ea, builds a boat and saves all the animals of the field from a violent storm. For the whole of this round, players can try their best to rebuild a version of Utnapishtim's boat, depicted in a puzzle. Whoever manages to rebuild Utnapishtim's boat in the fastest time during this round will get to board it and be safe during their next Tribal Council. As they will be trapped in the boat, they will not be able to vote at their next Tribal Council. If the person with the fastest time is voted out during this round, no one will get to board the boat.

Vesak
--Vesak is a Buddhist commemoration of the Enlightenment of the Buddha. In the same spirit, each of you will be enlightened as well. The votes of the last Tribal Council will be publicly revealed, as will the votes of the upcoming Tribal Council.

*Can not be selected post merge
** Can not be selected pre merge


COVID-19


{26} Due to the current situation we are adding in some extra rules to this game to help players in need during this time.

{27} If you need an extension at any point in the game please inform a Goderator and we will do our best to accommodate you, no questions asked. Please inform us at the earliest possible time, but please don't abuse this rule. If the request comes in less than 2 hours before results (whether challenge or TC) we may not be able to accommodate this. Likewise if you know you're going to be away from the game for longer than 24 hours please inform us so we can plan ahead.

{28} If for whatever reason you cannot do a challenge please inform us and we will attempt to find a suitable alternative or stand in if we can accommodate. We ask that you contact the Goderators directly so that we can plan accordingly.

{29} Please understand that this virus will also cause some issues for the moderators too, we may need to make some changes to the game if something comes up (such as a website going down). Please be patient with us during this time.

HYDRAS


{30} Up to three hydras may be in this game. Hydras are two users sharing one account. The hydra'd players will be known at the start of the game, and in the application, players can choose whether they'd like to potentially hydra or not. Once one hydra head competes in the first challenge, they must alternate competing in every challenge thereafter.

PARTING WORDS


{31} For reading this far down the page, you get a special treat! You know that there are 21 players in this game.

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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:18 pm

Post by Cephrir »

This game has been classified as Complex.
"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,
Bartleby the Scrivener
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:43 am

Post by PrivateI »

Oh no Aphrodites and Hercules's we are running out of time you'd better sign up by (expired on 2021-06-16 23:00:00). Hurry!!!

The gods await.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:49 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

Due to some delays (and us wanting to schedule the best start for everyone) it is unlikely that the game will start on the 19th. We will be sending out a scheduling form with casting PMs later today and announcing a day and time as soon as we have a good handle on what works best, we hope for this to be sooner rather than later.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:25 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

We are still waiting on a handful of response but it seems the game is likely to begin on either June 21st or June 22nd with deadlines around 5 PM PST/8 PM EST/1 AM BST though this is subject to change.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:29 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

After consulting the availability of the players, replacements and moderators, the game will begin on June 22nd, 2021 at 6 PM PST/9PM EST.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:09 am

Post by PrivateI »

Join us tonight in the official MS Discord for the live reveal and vote reveal of Survivor: Pantheon!
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:56 pm

Post by PrivateI »

Congratulations, Mist and Noraa, for winning a hard fought game!
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:57 pm

Post by Dannflor »

congratulations to the winners!

also thank you everyone for a great first-time survivor experience!
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:57 pm

Post by ORAM »

Congratulations to both of you, and to narrow runner-up Jesus/Aronis!
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:58 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

Congrats Mist and Noraa <3 <3

Also big congrats to Aronis. Y'all were amazing!
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:00 pm

Post by PrivateI »

Y'all, there's another game in the books. Another legend in the annals of MS history. Thank you, all of you, for taking part.

I have a hell of a lot of people to thank. First, the players. Each and every one of you was such a joy to watch. From the people I cajoled to join (you know who you are!) to the people who signed up the instant we put up the thread, all of you created an incredible tapestry for this game. In particular, I want to shout out the hydras, who took part in an ongoing experiment here on MS, and all three/six of y'all had such fun dynamics between you and with the rest of the players. Maat and Hathor (Mist and Noraa), you played a great game, and I know firsthand how much work you put into it (as the recipient of thousands and thousands of Discord messages over the course of the game. Jesus (Aronis), I know your game wasn't exactly what you wanted, but I had so much fun watching you play this game, and you really did a great job.

Spectators, I know we didn't have as active of a spec forum this game (sorry for that), but I appreciate you nonetheless. When we DID have conversations during the game, they were always beneficial and thought-provoking, inspiring some elements of a mod retrospective Vash and I plan to post in the coming days. I hope y'all had fun watching, and shoutout to Baphomet for being a constant presence in the game.

There were a lot of folks involved with producing this game. In particular, I want to first thank Aurathebirb and Reck. Reck was the listmod originally, and provided some helpful feedback that pushed us forward, and Aura was involved in the beginning with helping us create the game (and filmed one of our videos during the game!). I went to go see Vash and Aura last year, before the pandemic blew up, and the good times there are kinda what I coasted on for the first several months.

Creativemod1 joined us last year, and really helped jumpstart the technical pieces. Without CM1's spreadsheet, I'd still be working on some of those Tribal Council posts! CM1 wasn't present the whole game due to new obligations which arose, but I appreciate his help immensely.

Cephrir was the listmod for this game, and really provided a good amount of guidance in his review of the game (though any bad things that persisted are, of course, our responsibility haha). He is always an incredibly calming force, and talked us off the ledge when we inevitably were frustrated or panicking.

Finally, Vash, you introduced me to Taskmaster (which is the most important thing), and your vision for this game really drove everything. I was so excited to get to work on this with you, and even more stoked when this game--TWO YEARS in the making--came to fruition! You were the driving force behind a lot of the challenges and twists, and I can't thank you enough for picking up the slack when my life kind of blew up at the start of the summer. You are incredibly passionate--about fairness, about ensuring the players have a good time, and about designing a kickass game--and you succeeded, despite my lackluster efforts. Thanks for being my partner in crime. I love ya, man. Can't wait for Pantheon 2. :P
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:07 pm

Post by xofelf »

This was the strangest game experience I've ever had.
Xalxe: this is xofelf sometimes we call each other names and other times we share emotions
MattyP: Ur an enigma tho when it comes to circadian rhythm and the traditions we hold dear when it comes to the sun and the moon
Get to reknow a xofelf here
Discord is faster than PMs or sitechat: xofelf#1697
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:08 pm

Post by PrivateI »

In post 12, xofelf wrote:This was the strangest game experience I've ever had.
This game has been classified as Complex.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:09 pm

Post by xofelf »

Where's my goddamn like button, MS?
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:12 pm

Post by flow trap »

In post 14, xofelf wrote:Where's my goddamn like button, MS?
Use inspect element :3
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"I honestly had no idea how to converse with (Flow). (Flow) brought up architecture to start with and I was like "oh do you like architecture" and then he was like "uhm no I know nothing about it." And then he threw something out a window??"
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:16 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

If anyone asks you what happened in this game just give them this.

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I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir
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xofelf
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:37 pm

Post by xofelf »

I updated the anonymous character database with all of your pretty faces. If anything is broken though, lemme know.
Xalxe: this is xofelf sometimes we call each other names and other times we share emotions
MattyP: Ur an enigma tho when it comes to circadian rhythm and the traditions we hold dear when it comes to the sun and the moon
Get to reknow a xofelf here
Discord is faster than PMs or sitechat: xofelf#1697
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:55 pm

Post by Mist7676 »

woo!
You Are Worth It
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:09 am

Post by Awoo »

Congrats Mist/Noraa! I believe in HYDRA SUPREMACY!

Are you guys gonna post the forum link/open the forum up?
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:13 am

Post by xofelf »

I think they opened stuff up already, but I can beat them to the forum link: https://survivor-pantheon.freeforums.net/

I'd also put it into the links tab of the database, like I do all games.
Xalxe: this is xofelf sometimes we call each other names and other times we share emotions
MattyP: Ur an enigma tho when it comes to circadian rhythm and the traditions we hold dear when it comes to the sun and the moon
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:14 am

Post by SalTheBard »

Thank you everyone for the wonderful first Mafia Scum game. It went differently then I had anticipated but it was a really cool game. I loved how many of the challenges had extra layers to them.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Post by Sami Murphy »

.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:40 pm

Post by Noraa »

Thank you everyone for this amazing game!!!
Special thanks to the mods and listmod Anansi, Kokopelli, Hypnos, and Anubis!
Even specialer thanks to Mist!
Until next time.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:53 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

Survivor Pantheon: A Retrospective

by Vash and Monty


With Survivor: Pantheon complete we figured it'd be a good idea to look back on it with thoughts on everything in it, what worked, what didn't and what lessons can be learned to improve future games. We plan to look at how the challenges, twists, items and other mechanics affected the game. This retrospective won't focus too much on the players of the game except to support a larger claim about one of the previously mentioned aspects of the game. Also note that anything in this color were said by Vash and in
green were said by Monty
. So with that being said, let's begin.

Part 1: Challenges


Challenge by Challenge Thoughts:

Spoiler: Premerge
Challenge 1: Empire of the Five Suns

The general idea of this challenge was to have an intentionally longish game that would make players decide whether they wanted to be cooperative or adversarial with the players on the other tribes. On this count I think it was a huge success. A good portion of players really enjoyed the challenge and there were a variety of outcomes. Also while it was tighter than we wanted to, all games did finish, which was helped a lot by the pregame availability form we sent out, as that's how we decided who'd be in what game.

However, the main change I'd suggest for this challenge can be summed up in one word, canals. The aura was confusing and led to pretty much every group miscounting at one point or another since it meant a lot more math had to be done. It also meant that my double check of each game was substantially longer than it should have been. I think without Canals (or simplifying them substantially) the games would have taken a lot less time. It also might have been smart to cut the total number of rounds in half, but nothing broke here and I'm happy about that.

I will also say that the google sheets really help with this and any board game based challenges that don't already have a site to complete them on should be done on google sheets.

Challenge 2: Loki's Treachery

This challenge was essentially a logic puzzle, and the average time for the challenge was acceptable but not ideal. I think the biggest issue is that while the puzzle certainly worked, the solution wasn't incredibly elegant and the best method after a bit was almost certainly to guess and check, which is the least fun method to do a puzzle. A long puzzle with a fun journey is fine, a long puzzle with an unfun journey is significantly less fine.

Challenge 3: Kokopelli's Symphony

No real notes on this challenge. All groups completed this challenge in an ideal time frame with a clear winner. It also introduced players to a bunch of songs that I hope they liked.

Challenge 4: Cave of Wonders

While it was also a twist but was technically a challenge. Some people realized that the challenge was a bit too convenient after they submitted. I do think we could have worded this a bit better, as the goal was to have all the players on one tribe have an idol clue and the other ones have to make due with whatever hints we added later. However, due to our wording, this actually led to the 2 people who were the most "selfless" got rewarded since there was an 11 way tie at the lowest amount, which we really did not expect but I'm fine with. It also left 2 players without an idol clue on the greedy tribe, which I think is the main downside of what happened. Still very much do like the idea of challenges that affect who gets swapped with whom, but I don't think this should be the way its done.

Challenge 5: Test of Thoth

The idea of this challenge was to combine two challenges where people were likely to be good at one but not the other. This is rather difficult to do well, and this challenge mostly became about solving the maze half. In hindsight the maze should have been swapped out with an easier version I also had access to. I also feel a challenge like this might be better post merge, as it rewards someone who is good at both halves, rather than punishing people for not being good at one.

Challenge 6: Scenes from a Dream

Some people really liked this challenge, others had it as their least favorite. I think as far as subjective challenges, it went well, there were some pretty funny jokes in it, and I think the feedback was very constructive. It also didn't require any IDing info, which in hindsight I think should be important for any creative challenge in an anonymous game, since it allows you to share the entries themselves with results.

Swap Challenge: Cassandra's Questions

I think this overall went well, but some grouping decisions on answers (like putting all the weapon answers together since someone answered weapon but not what kind) certainly impacted the results. Asking for specific people/things can work around this though. Also some rules about what doesn't count as an answer should have been stated since unless something just wasn't an attempt to answer the question, we gave points for it. Nothing major but considering how we ended up with a tie in the final results, definitely impactful.

Challenge 7: Rumpelstiltskin's Riddle

Our time estimate was a bit off since the more people involved, the slower this goes, and some groups took a while between asking questions. If we said this was going to be 2-3 hours I think it's perfect, though we did have to have a few mod conversations about our official answers to some questions, and whether certain words should be counted as the same. There's nothing like a late night discussion on the etymology of a word with your fellow mod.

Challenge 8: Odin's Runes

This challenge was simple and pretty successful I'd say. I do think some groups blew this challenge out of the water. To the point where maybe it would have been better to use 5 runes instead of 3 runes. But aside from that I'd make no changes. It also allowed people to bond over a challenge which I think is important in the premerge.

Challenge 9: Here Be Dragons!

If you just accept that this is a challenge that requires a 48 hour window to schedule the board game matches then I think it works great. A lot of people seemed to like this challenge in the Merge Survey, which is good, and we tried to cover a variety of skills. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more challenges like this in the future.

Challenge 10: Daedelus Made a Maze

This challenge was originally meant to be a team game of Santorini, but after having several 48 hour challenges in the premerge, and Santorini being a game that really only works best in 1 on 1, we decided that instead using the Maze and keeping Santorini in reserve as a tiebreaker game would be best.

As for the challenge itself, I think it went fine. It wasn't super well liked, but it was not a disaster, and while one of them was over time, everyone completed it. I think that's all you can really ask for a backup challenge, and it went over better than some of the challenges we had already run.

Spoiler: Postmerge
Challenge 11: Zodiac Race

This challenge took most people a while to get their head around since the rules were very long, but I'm not sure they could have been simplified further. Using somewhat nonstandard thumbtacks rules also threw people. Still once people had a handle on it, I think it went well. The people who won weren't just the most popular people around, which was certainly a scenario we were worried about.

Challenge 12: Anansi's Tale

This challenge went fine. I will say that I'm very happy the win was a dominant one since like Cassandra's questions, every little decision in what counts as a full point vs half point can matter. Still I think a lot of the answers here were very clean cut, but could have been even clearer.

Challenge 13: Tall Tale Contest

Everyone submitted for this challenge, and we got some really creative submissions. It still required 48 hours overall, but giving 40 hours to come up with something definitely seems a better way to do this unless all judges are going to take only an hour to grade and you can immediately roll over into tribal council. The one issue I have is that to enable more mediums of submission we allowed IDs to be broken, which meant some great entries weren't shared until game end.

Challenge 14: Baba Yaga's Toilsome Trials

I love the concept of this challenge and I think it almost went perfectly. Unfortunately Puzzle B (aka Nurimaze) was one of the solvable puzzles and the rules were a bit too much compared the others. Even those who realized it was possible didn't solve it. Also it probably would have done a world of help to bold the resubmission line, since some people solved a puzzle and could have submitted but instead waited until the end to do so.

Challenge 15: Opposites

Much like the previous challenge, a bolding of the line about connections going a certain way would have helped a ton. Also the path of getting the very last word connection gave people a bit more trouble than we were expecting, and swapping it out for another one would have been better. Still outside of that it was a fine challenge.

Challenge 16: Merlin's Apprentice

Worked out fine I'd say. This was meant to be run live (which would have also been packaged with a special 1 hour live tribal) and I think it works better that way, but it was still okay the way it was run.

Challenge 17: Five Golden Things

There was some criticism of the buying aspect of this challenge which I think was overblown. We figured that the only situation someone might buy something is if they had nothing else that fit the category, and even then they'd probably only get something cheap, and no one even bought anything. Still it probably would be fine to eliminate that aspect or put a cap of like 5 dollars on it.

This challenge essentially became a creative writing challenge, with the winners making up a lot of backstories about items while also trying to be realistic. This went fine this time, but I do feel it could have some pernicious effects depending on what your players are willing to lie about, especially since the more personal a story, the more likely it was to get high marks (not to mention the potential impact if a judge thought you were lying about something you actually went through). Still it was fun to actually run a Taskmaster challenge and there were some very fun submissions to read here.

Challenge 18: Natural History Catalogue

This challenge went through a lot of rewrites in playtesting. Originally it was way too easy with full internet access, to way too hard with just the wiki links but no list, and I'm ultimately happy with where it ended up. Maybe more creatures or a longer list could have been utilized but overall it went very well, and making people look over mythical creatures is always fun to me.


Final Challenge Part 1: Where in China is Sun Wukong?

Really enjoyed making the panels for this (or rather looking at the panels after I made them) they looked beautiful. I also think it went pretty decently offering players a choice between categories. I do think that perhaps the world mythology category was a bit too broad, and the exact difficulty was a bit hard to gauge for each questions even though it definitely did increase as the questions went on.

Final Challenge Part 2: Labors of Hercules

In hindsight might have made the haiku labor a little easier, and taken away one of the math magic puzzles, but overall I think this was a fun challenge. A clear deadline, an easy to determine winner, and challenging players decision making as well as ability to complete tasks. Very happy to learn that this works well as an individual challenge rather than just a tribal challenge. Though I think I could have done some better tying into the previous challenges in the game with the tasks.

Final Challenge Part 3: A Story of Your Own

90% of this challenge I think was great. People seemed to like the text adventure aspect and most of the little pieces of flavor sprinkled throughout. Though making it a speedrun does encourage people to skip over most of that.

However, the resulting challenge was unfortunate. No one had trouble with the dials puzzle until the finalists did (though other people were tripped up playing for fun later on), and as the only non brute forceable puzzle it cogged up the works. It did not help that after we thought Jesus had given up and we went to sleep, he actually just took a 3-4 hour break and finished it before we woke up. Which meant that the only thing to do from that point was let Hades go until either that now extra long (and unspecified to Hades) amount of time passed or he gave up, the latter occurred. Strangely if Maat & Hathor had won Part II we would have been able to stop either of the other finalist after an hour, but that didn't happen.

This did change the challenge to be more about perseverance than answering jury questions and doing a text adventure, which is not necessarily a bad skill to test with the final challenge, but not worth the journey it took us on.

In Hindsight there's only 3 changes I'd make:
1. I'd reduce the symbols on the dials to 5 or 6 and make it clear symbols don't repeat in the combo, making it a lot easier to brute force but still not the ideal way to go about it. Or add a hint about how to get to the solution after a number of incorrect guesses.
2. Move the paper hint to another shrine, or just not mention the specific letters on it as they were unnecessary for its effect later and would have tripped people up less.
3. Put a time cap at wherever we felt was too long to wait for a result, though I feel with the above two changes this would be unnescary, but at least is a safety net for when things go wrong.

Still I like this challenge and the site I used: https://www.inklewriter.com/ is free and very useful for any future text adventure challenges.


Overall Challenge Thoughts:
Spoiler:
From what I can tell the most maligned challenges were definitely those involving puzzles because the puzzles ended up being too difficult. I like difficult puzzles myself because I'd much rather lose by 5 or 10 minutes on a 30 minute puzzle, than lose by 1 minute on a 5 minute puzzle since so many small things can influence the latter. However, the puzzles here went to the point where while some people would complete them, other people would just not, and there's a huge difference between spending a lot of time and completing something vs spending a lot of time and still not completing it, the latter feels just terrible. I also think that especially premerge, puzzles do little to build comraderie/adversity among tribesmates and I think the best challenges do that as well. I'm not sure I can make a statement on puzzles in general aside from have a cutoff for when players can't complete the challenge ALWAYS. Another takeaway is that I probably should not create or playtest puzzles beyond a basic outline since I seem to have no good guage on what difficultly will lead to a good challenge vs what difficulty will just make everyone have a bad time. Lastly, more bullet point lists and bolding important sentences would be easy ways to increase challenge readability.

Hilariously most of the other challenges that were people's favorites ended up taking 48 hours, which is a good thing, because if you are going to spend that much time on a challenge, it better be worth it, but also worries me since a bunch of 48 hour challenges is very likely to slow the pace of the game if you don't also have twists going on that keep the pace going. I also think we had a wide diversity of challenges and a lot with novel concepts, but a good portion definitely need a few tweaks before they'll be as good as they possibly can be. The last thought I have is that the less IDing info necesarry for a creative challenge, the better, as the best part of those is to share what you made at the end.


Part 2: Idols

Individual Idol Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Artemis' Arrows (Skill Idol)

The competition for who got it worked out how we expected, we didn't want these to come into play until round 3 or 4 and they did. Unfortunately they rarely got used since Poppy never needed them and attended a lot of tribals, so they just slowly dwindled. Also maybe a challenge where it was easier to steal the best score might have been better for the idol to transfer ownership, but I don't think this result was bad or anything.

Mjolnir (Luck Idol)

We wanted an idol that would likely be discovered in a PM or a public post via a word filter and well, this worked to perfection. This idol was hilarious since we decided to have it appear 2 rounds after it was thrown, and since it was thrown premerge it appeared at a tribal that Jael wasn't at. Do wish it had some more impact (which it certainly would have if thrown at F13 than F15), but it was always going to have to be a bit of a lucky throw.

Ring of Mudarra (Rules/Endurance Idol)

The idea of this idol was getting rewarded for making a low information choice (and also having to spend about 3 hours doing an endurance challenge) while also not just letting it do absolutely nothing. As such this idol became a walkie talkie where if one player was eliminated, it was simply a half idol. But both players made merge, enabling Cerberus' good early choice to pay off.

Pot of Greed/Phoenix Feather (Greedy/Selfless Idols)

The idea of these idols was that they could only be used for 3 rounds, but would offer you something for playing them correctly (with the "Selfless" idol being unable to be used on yourself). One got used correctly and one didn't, which I think is a fine result. The Selfless idol essentially needed to be leaked for anyone to get it though, so perhaps making the password easier to figure out would be a good idea. Also basing the password off of players' passwords is a theoretically bad idea, and you definitely need to make sure that people can't just crack them easily and there are more permutations than you can count.

Muramasa (Power Idol)

Loved this idol. The hunt was beautiful to watch, and everything was very well calibrated....except for the very last riddle. I'm fine with the last riddle being a bit more difficult as it is the one to unlock the idol, but picking a relatively unknown Scorsece film that wasn't even in the top 40 of the box office the year it was released was....a bit too much of a stretch for anyone who wasn't already familiar with the material. That being said I'm not the most dissapointed with the idol not being unlocked until merge with a hint since we didn't actually want a seventh idol in the game and this essentially being the merge idol worked out well. Also I think the restrictions worked well for such a powerful idol (though it's power could have been negated with a vote steal, though Jael would still have been immune in that case).

Monty here--the biggest thing I think should have been included with the Power Idol is a material number of vote steals automatically in the game. With the idol in the game alone, it was a little too OP without the possible nerf of a vote steal.


Overall Idol Thoughts:
Spoiler:
We had a variety of idols hidden in a number of new ways, while a few tweaks to how some of the later ones were hidden might have been better, I'd say these all worked out from alright to great.


Part 3: Divine Interventions

Individual Divine Intervention Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Pyramus and Thisbe

Really enjoyed this twist, enabled a lot of communication and people getting to know people on the other tribes, but with less numbers than a shipwreck so it wasn't extra overwhelming.

Lent

Solid twist, forced a decision, could have caused a move to be made while people focused too much on the future, but didn't.

The Prophet's Hadith

This was fascinating to watch, since it happened with uneven tribes it meant that cross tribe picks were going to be key, and they definitely caused people to make decisions that accidentally hurt their allies, along with some people choosing chaos.


The Moirai

Was an interesting twist, but coming so close to F11 meant that a coordinated strike was likely, which even though Jael had an idol really shut them down a good 4 rounds ahead of time when they already were having a rough time due to not going to TC. It definitely added an extra dimension to the game but might have been more interesting if you couldn't coordinate votes, since you might still get a majority and a lot more questions of "wait who voted for me" would happen.

Tower of Babel

Was just sort of...funny. Like it didn't impact anything much but I couldn't stop cackling at the public posts.

Year of Two Winters

This DI was one of the few that a player actually picked (more on that in the overall thoughts) but it really just ended up making discussion very difficult. It's fun to watch in a situation where there is only chaos, but here it just sort of put the nail in the coffin for the bottom of the game.


Overall Divine Intervention Thoughts:
Spoiler:
I think the Divine Interventions were amazing premerge, they added a lot more things to consider and kept the pace of the game from dragging. However, past merge, especially at F7, most DIs would have done nothing at all since most of the items were gone. In fact the ones that could impact the game heavily (Defense of Ulster and Dia De Los Muertos) were veto'd so they wouldn't occur.

Also completely underestimated the amount of vetoing that would happen, a lot of the time a random event rolled where if all 3 token holders chose one, that wouldn't have happened. However, it makes sense that few events actually benefitted certain positions whereas ones that were bad were much easier to decipher.

Overall I do like the pseudorandom system with input from players, but I think there are ways to implement it to better tailor twists to the point of the game you are at and enable some of the more....twisty events to occur.

Monty here--I think overall, these DIs gave players a lot of agency, where they could do what they wanted with them. I can see a world where more chaotic players go for broke and boost events like Dolos--I'm fine with how these twists turned out, and I would run things without many changes to the token system.


Part 4: Other Twists
Spoiler:
Cave of Wonders/Personality Swap

I really liked swapping the tribes based on a decision made in a challenge. Obviously this exact version shouldn't be done again, but swapping based on a challenge that doesn't just...split people up on challenge prowess is a an idea I like to see and I think worked better than just pseudorandoming the tribes.

Draft Swap

I loved this, there was just enough miscommunication for the tribes to be interesting without them 100% being kill x player tribes while also allowing people to talk through decisions ahead of time. People had to make decisions, and I think we picked a fair challenge for this to determine the order.

Monty here--most of my insertions are to add areas of nuance or disagreement, but I just want to say that I also loved this swap.


Third Swap

This swap wasn't actually completely random, we took the Receivers from the previous challenge and put them on one tribe, and took the Givers and put them on the other tribe, and then put the sit outs on the larger tribe. Only idea was to split up any hard pairs for the last tribes while also keeping the numbers evened out. It worked okay and I do like it slightly more than a pseudorandom swap. Perhaps it would have been better to try and make sure players who hadn't met before would be sure to meet here though.

Big Brother Finale

I was worried that this would slow the pace of the endgame but I don't think it did too much. It enables the finalists to really think through their options, their case and add a little bit of drama, at least through the first 2 challenges, depending on the gamestate. It also gave players more times to work on torchwalks but that's kind of just a minor bonus. I think this format can still be done with a F3 and not just an F2 you just have to decide whether to take the top 2 competitors from the challenges, or just cut the bottom competitor from each challenge.

Monty here--I'd make sure that there were three 24 hour challenges used here, as I think more time spent on the challenges would have made things drag a bit. Even going to a tiebreaker challenge would have been suboptimal for that reason.


Hydras

Even if disclosed ahead of time I'd still count Hydras as a twist on the game. I think most of my thoughts on hydras have been stated before but they remain unchanged. They are an advantage, but to access that advantage a lot of extra work has to be put in, I also believe that with any good forethought from mods, they won't form pairs that are going to be so much stronger than the normal playerbase that they should be banned (like no one is gonna ban the top of ELO or Crazy Scores for being too good at survivor and I don't think you are going to create a hydra that is objectively stronger than that on accident). They allow people to either mentor newbies, have a unique experience with a friend or play when they otherwise would be too busy to. I don't even think letting people pick their partners is a bad thing, even with potential IDing I don't think it's worse than ID issues with just normal play, and it makes sure you don't trap 2 people in a chat for months that they won't enjoy. We also got 3 different hydra experiences in this game and while a hydra did win, it was by the barest of margins in probably their best FTC matchup. That being said, given there is a significant population that has a problem with hydras, they should be more of a rarity and likely the next time we see them should be in an all hydra big brother or a half hydra legendary esque game.

Monty here--hydras have been the focal point of discussion for the listmods since the game ended, so expect to see more about them coming soon. I echo Vash's thoughts, and feel like hydras, where used, should prioritize bringing people into the game, not excluding them. So, for example, hydra matches should usually have someone who is going to directly benefit, either from scheduling difficulties, or experience gained, from being in a hydra.


Part 5: Miscellaneous thoughts
Spoiler:
Anonymous Feedback Form

There was an in game Anonymous feedback form, it was interesting early on but it rarely got used past week 2 of the game and would need a constant reminder to like...actually work. But it was interesting to experiment with.

F2 Decision

I liked having an F2 in this game, it provided a competitive FTC that focused on 2 different playstyles and ended up being a 5-4 so it was rather exciting. The one change I'd make is use capital letters when announcing it in the rules and point it out early on so players get it into their head, since a lot of people assumed an F3 despite the F2 being in the rules.

Lack of multi-elimination rounds

I think the one thing that could have helped this game was just one or two multi elimination rounds or fitness challenge esque rounds. This would have ever so slightly increased the pace of the game (allowing a few of the less interactive challenges to be dropped) and would have not had the curse of Hito happen. Like we couldn't predict that the same tribe would go to tribal so much multiple times, but not going to TC certainly caused a some disengagement or otherwise hurt players and you have to be prepared for that possibility. It also would have made merge at 11 work a bit better as with single eliminations, merge at 13 wouldn't have been the worst thing.

Monty here--I'm more inclined to let folks roll with the punches in this situation. Winning repeatedly, just like losing repeatedly, can be a blessing or a curse in Survivor, and creating situations where folks are incentivized to throw challenges potentially isn't a bad thing, from my view.


The Spreadsheet

CreativeMod's spreadsheet is a godsend, once setup is done, tribe swaps, TC results and so many other things are a lot easier to do. Like most phase changes just required me to be around and took 10-15 minutes in the worst circumstances. Also spreadsheet skills are remarkable for tallying scores for the more calculation heavy challenges and the table maker was one of my favorite tools for posting results....once I realized it existed.


Part 6: Main Takeaways
Spoiler:
There are a lot of things here that were unique to Complex games--mainly the items and twists in play. Those could have some tweaks, but worked well overall. Overall, there was a LOT going on, but it still felt relatively balanced, and twists and items ended much better than they could have. In general, twists and challenges tended to favour player agency (even if it was sometimes random draw that made that happen), and that made for a better game.

The biggest thing we'd take away from running this game was the challenges themselves. While, on the whole, they worked well, there are some improvements we'd make, the most significant of which is setting more hard caps on challenge run times, and doing a better job of scheduling rounds, so there aren't multiple 48 hour challenges.


Agree with Monty, aside from difficulty balances and being ready for when that goes wrong, I think most things worked well together. Hard caps on challenges are a must, and being able to schedule team up challenges that aren't 48 hours long would be a godsend in terms of enjoyment and pacing, though I'm not sure how easy that will be in the future.
George Bailey
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