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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:03 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Well, first all idols may not get found. Second, some idols may get played pre-merge. And people could get voted out with an idol in their pocket (you and I know this first-hand).

Also four is way too much for 16-20 player games. If you're going over three with 20 players or less that's not a good idea.
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:26 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 419, hiplop wrote:premerge challenges effectively dont matter in this current meta. being bad at challenges is like not even close to a problem if you know AT MOST youre going to be on a tribe for 2 rounds
yeah i hate this
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:27 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 422, Shadoweh wrote:
In post 413, Cephrir wrote:idols are good
how many idols?
the show seems to like one per tribe with replacement. if i were to adjust that at all i'd go less-ward.
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:58 pm

Post by BROseidon »

In post 419, hiplop wrote:premerge challenges effectively dont matter in this current meta. being bad at challenges is like not even close to a problem if you know AT MOST youre going to be on a tribe for 2 rounds
This is a thing I actually agree with and have commented on from spec threads in the past.
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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:00 pm

Post by hiplop »

In addition i feel like the best ms players who often go far dont actually have the skill of surviving on a Tribe long term.
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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:01 pm

Post by Xalxe »

In post 425, D3f3nd3r wrote:Well, first all idols may not get found.


Well, first all idols may not get found.
When was the last time that happened, BotB?
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:03 pm

Post by BROseidon »

Things I will say:

1) I think twist-heavy games are fine, but we've definitely skewed twist-heavy and could use more twist-light games (I am certainly a part of this, since as a designer I tend to like doing wacky shit).

2) "Tons of swaps" doesn't make a game more interesting. It leads to post-merges that become cool kid clubs because certain players have become friends with everyone each step of the way (see: School Survivor). Like, yeah, people hate pagongs and find them boring, but it's also boring when relationships become so symmetrical across the player base that everyone wants to work with the same 3 people so those people win. Some degree of relational asymmetry by limiting swaps is a good thing.

3) Fewer twists with more creativity would be cool. Like, yeah, some people really disliked MLS's main twist, but there were also a number of players who really enjoyed it (and the real issue was not being upfront with "this game features a massive twist that fundamentally rewrites a major portion of the game). I think we need more of people cutting back on large numbers of conventional twists (swaps, idols, other items, combined TCs) and more use of really crazy twists that can teach us things about the game.
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:08 pm

Post by Aurathebirb »

Variety is the spice of life
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:09 pm

Post by Xalxe »

I support the Kondo method at all stages of the design process.
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Post by racefan12 »

I don't see swaps as an inherently bad thing, because some amount of player mixing is necessary to cut down on the likelihood of pagongs post-merge. The more players you have, the more swaps you need.

I do agree with the cap on idols, though.

As far as challenges go, I think the concept of challenges in online social games as just weird in general. I mean, yes, you need some sort of way to determine which tribe/individual is immune, but let's face it, would that much really be lost if each challenge was simply determined randomly?

Like if you want to test someone's skill at puzzles or Flash games or whatever, we have stuff like The Challenge. But that has nothing to do with who's best at social gaming (hell, just look at me). To me, the only things online challenges are useful for is to show 1) teamwork (or lack thereof) within tribes, and 2) commitment to the game (i.e. endurance, who wants it more) Otherwise, how good you are at challenges doesn't tell me anything about whether or not I can work with you.
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:13 pm

Post by hiplop »

Yea that's on the nose.

Massively game changing twists are seen as regular. I think that is the primary issue

Edit: racefan yes that is the problem
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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:14 pm

Post by BROseidon »

In post 434, racefan12 wrote:Like if you want to test someone's skill at puzzles or Flash games or whatever, we have stuff like The Challenge. But that has nothing to do with who's best at social gaming (hell, just look at me). To me, the only things online challenges are useful for is to show 1) teamwork (or lack thereof) within tribes, and 2) commitment to the game (i.e. endurance, who wants it more) Otherwise, how good you are at challenges doesn't tell me anything about whether or not I can work with you.
You're missing the point of challenges being a relevant skill in Survivor.
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:14 pm

Post by BROseidon »

Like yes "challenges" here are different than "challenges" on the show because of the different medium but challenge strength is a relevant skill.
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:20 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

In post 429, hiplop wrote:In addition i feel like the best ms players who often go far dont actually have the skill of surviving on a Tribe long term.
I don't think that's true, the best social players survive regardless of going to 21 TC's in a game. :P Making challenge strength more valued is an interesting idea though, I agree that right now no one cares about it. I mean, the main problem with challenge strength is you can't judge in advance, because no one's avatar has buff muscles and you can't ID Klick until a flash game comes up.
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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:22 pm

Post by hiplop »

In post 438, Shadoweh wrote:don't think that's true, the best social players survive regardless of going to 21 TC's in a game.
Can you say that? Like we have literally no evidence of it because theres always a swap within like 3 rounds
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:27 pm

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In post 427, Cephrir wrote:
In post 422, Shadoweh wrote:
In post 413, Cephrir wrote:idols are good
how many idols?
the show seems to like one per tribe with replacement. if i were to adjust that at all i'd go less-ward.
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:28 pm

Post by BROseidon »

I'm trying to think of the longest tribal phase I've been on and, uh, I think school with the joint TCs was like 4 rounds?
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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:30 pm

Post by racefan12 »

On the show, challenge strength is generally predictive of how helpful the player will be to the tribe in the future (helping out around camp, contributions to future challenges, whether they're willing to communicate and cooperate or be obstinate). In general challenge strength is theoretically an asset pre-merge, but a liability post-merge.

In online survivor, challenge strength is not predictive of anything. There's no camp survival aspect to deal with. Individual challenges are so diverse that it's difficult to tell who will be good at future challenges based on their performance in previous challenges. And yes, the cooperation aspect of challenges is important, but building relationships is primarily done through other means.

I don't see how challenge strength is a particular strength to a person's tribe online, and it certainly isn't something I consider when determining post-merge moves, either. It's just there.
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:31 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

The expectation is definitely 4 or less. I think as long as there's some kind of double-tc mechanics and talk-to-other-tribe mechanics having larger longer tribes isn't bad. >.> I really liked MLS for that.
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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:31 pm

Post by Xalxe »

Season Finale had the same tribes except one Mutiny for the entire pre-merge, 6 rounds.

Greece had the post-swap tribes for 4 rounds, as did Magic Kingdom.
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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:31 pm

Post by hiplop »

Gee its almost like what you just outlined is a problem
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:34 pm

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In post 443, Shadoweh wrote:The expectation is definitely 4 or less. I think as long as there's some kind of double-tc mechanics and talk-to-other-tribe mechanics having larger longer tribes isn't bad. >.> I really liked MLS for that.
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:35 pm

Post by BROseidon »

There were! They were just all at once!
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

In post 444, Xalxe wrote:Season Finale had the same tribes except one Mutiny for the entire pre-merge, 6 rounds.

Greece had the post-swap tribes for 4 rounds, as did Magic Kingdom.
two games that all participants want to re-create I'm sure! (Magic Kingdom had partners so there was the cross-tribe talk!)
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:10 pm

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

I guess on the show, challenge strength is more easily apparent like someone being visibly super jacked or a fast runner, but I wish it was valued more on tribes or seen as a reason to vote someone out of a tribe. But yeah with constant swaps there's no incentive to care about how many challenges your tribe wins in the long-term. Literally the main reason I started doing more challenge-based games is that challenge design takes up the most time in modding Survivor, and it's the aspect of the game the majority of people care the least about
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