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- D3f3nd3r
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D3f3nd3r he/himBest Social Game
- D3f3nd3r
he/him- Best Social Game
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Well, first all idols may not get found. Second, some idols may get played pre-merge. And people could get voted out with an idol in their pocket (you and I know this first-hand).
Also four is way too much for 16-20 player games. If you're going over three with 20 players or less that's not a good idea.“The assumption of good faith is dead”
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Cephrir he/himSurvivor
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yeah i hate thisIn post 419, hiplop wrote:premerge challenges effectively dont matter in this current meta. being bad at challenges is like not even close to a problem if you know AT MOST youre going to be on a tribe for 2 rounds"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener- Cephrir
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Cephrir he/himSurvivor
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the show seems to like one per tribe with replacement. if i were to adjust that at all i'd go less-ward.
"I would prefer not to." --Herman Melville,Bartleby the Scrivener- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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This is a thing I actually agree with and have commented on from spec threads in the past.In post 419, hiplop wrote:premerge challenges effectively dont matter in this current meta. being bad at challenges is like not even close to a problem if you know AT MOST youre going to be on a tribe for 2 rounds-
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hiplop Jury Darling
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- Xalxe
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Xalxe He/himIt's pronounced "Xalxe"
- Xalxe
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When was the last time that happened, BotB?In post 425, D3f3nd3r wrote:Well, first all idols may not get found.
Well, first all idols may not get found."I, too, would prefer to know the Xalxe of my demise." - Felissan, 2022
- On this day in history: mundanity, and terror, and food, and love, and trees -- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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Things I will say:
1) I think twist-heavy games are fine, but we've definitely skewed twist-heavy and could use more twist-light games (I am certainly a part of this, since as a designer I tend to like doing wacky shit).
2) "Tons of swaps" doesn't make a game more interesting. It leads to post-merges that become cool kid clubs because certain players have become friends with everyone each step of the way (see: School Survivor). Like, yeah, people hate pagongs and find them boring, but it's also boring when relationships become so symmetrical across the player base that everyone wants to work with the same 3 people so those people win. Some degree of relational asymmetry by limiting swaps is a good thing.
3) Fewer twists with more creativity would be cool. Like, yeah, some people really disliked MLS's main twist, but there were also a number of players who really enjoyed it (and the real issue was not being upfront with "this game features a massive twist that fundamentally rewrites a major portion of the game). I think we need more of people cutting back on large numbers of conventional twists (swaps, idols, other items, combined TCs) and more use of really crazy twists that can teach us things about the game.- Aurathebirb
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Aurathebirb Townie
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- Xalxe
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Xalxe He/himIt's pronounced "Xalxe"
- Xalxe
He/him- It's pronounced "Xalxe"
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- racefan12
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racefan12 Townie
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I don't see swaps as an inherently bad thing, because some amount of player mixing is necessary to cut down on the likelihood of pagongs post-merge. The more players you have, the more swaps you need.
I do agree with the cap on idols, though.
As far as challenges go, I think the concept of challenges in online social games as just weird in general. I mean, yes, you need some sort of way to determine which tribe/individual is immune, but let's face it, would that much really be lost if each challenge was simply determined randomly?
Like if you want to test someone's skill at puzzles or Flash games or whatever, we have stuff like The Challenge. But that has nothing to do with who's best at social gaming (hell, just look at me). To me, the only things online challenges are useful for is to show 1) teamwork (or lack thereof) within tribes, and 2) commitment to the game (i.e. endurance, who wants it more) Otherwise, how good you are at challenges doesn't tell me anything about whether or not I can work with you.PrivateI:I wish I could bang on the home keys on my keyboard to create an appeal to emotion. It sounds so...soothing.
CuddlyCaucasian:Mafiascum: a land where pansexuality is widely accepted and understood while two people who share the same first name cause mass confusion
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hiplop Jury Darling
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- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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You're missing the point of challenges being a relevant skill in Survivor.In post 434, racefan12 wrote:Like if you want to test someone's skill at puzzles or Flash games or whatever, we have stuff like The Challenge. But that has nothing to do with who's best at social gaming (hell, just look at me). To me, the only things online challenges are useful for is to show 1) teamwork (or lack thereof) within tribes, and 2) commitment to the game (i.e. endurance, who wants it more) Otherwise, how good you are at challenges doesn't tell me anything about whether or not I can work with you.- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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- Shadoweh
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Shadoweh Idol Hands
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I don't think that's true, the best social players survive regardless of going to 21 TC's in a game. Making challenge strength more valued is an interesting idea though, I agree that right now no one cares about it. I mean, the main problem with challenge strength is you can't judge in advance, because no one's avatar has buff muscles and you can't ID Klick until a flash game comes up.In post 429, hiplop wrote:In addition i feel like the best ms players who often go far dont actually have the skill of surviving on a Tribe long term.I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir-
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hiplop Jury Darling
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Can you say that? Like we have literally no evidence of it because theres always a swap within like 3 roundsIn post 438, Shadoweh wrote:don't think that's true, the best social players survive regardless of going to 21 TC's in a game.third best scummer of all time- Flameaxe
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Flameaxe Comma Police
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i sign thisIn post 427, Cephrir wrote:the show seems to like one per tribe with replacement. if i were to adjust that at all i'd go less-ward.
Defined by who I dislike, not who I like~- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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- racefan12
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racefan12 Townie
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On the show, challenge strength is generally predictive of how helpful the player will be to the tribe in the future (helping out around camp, contributions to future challenges, whether they're willing to communicate and cooperate or be obstinate). In general challenge strength is theoretically an asset pre-merge, but a liability post-merge.
In online survivor, challenge strength is not predictive of anything. There's no camp survival aspect to deal with. Individual challenges are so diverse that it's difficult to tell who will be good at future challenges based on their performance in previous challenges. And yes, the cooperation aspect of challenges is important, but building relationships is primarily done through other means.
I don't see how challenge strength is a particular strength to a person's tribe online, and it certainly isn't something I consider when determining post-merge moves, either. It's just there.PrivateI:I wish I could bang on the home keys on my keyboard to create an appeal to emotion. It sounds so...soothing.
CuddlyCaucasian:Mafiascum: a land where pansexuality is widely accepted and understood while two people who share the same first name cause mass confusion
You have questions about me? I try to give you answers!- Shadoweh
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Shadoweh Idol Hands
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The expectation is definitely 4 or less. I think as long as there's some kind of double-tc mechanics and talk-to-other-tribe mechanics having larger longer tribes isn't bad. >.> I really liked MLS for that.I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir- Xalxe
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Xalxe He/himIt's pronounced "Xalxe"
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He/him- It's pronounced "Xalxe"
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Season Finale had the same tribes except one Mutiny for the entire pre-merge, 6 rounds.
Greece had the post-swap tribes for 4 rounds, as did Magic Kingdom."I, too, would prefer to know the Xalxe of my demise." - Felissan, 2022
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hiplop Jury Darling
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- Cheery Dog
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Cheery Dog Kayak
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We just needed some eliminations before mergeIn post 443, Shadoweh wrote:The expectation is definitely 4 or less. I think as long as there's some kind of double-tc mechanics and talk-to-other-tribe mechanics having larger longer tribes isn't bad. >.> I really liked MLS for that.Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.- BROseidon
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BROseidon Expert Marxman
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- Shadoweh
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Shadoweh Idol Hands
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two games that all participants want to re-create I'm sure! (Magic Kingdom had partners so there was the cross-tribe talk!)In post 444, Xalxe wrote:Season Finale had the same tribes except one Mutiny for the entire pre-merge, 6 rounds.
Greece had the post-swap tribes for 4 rounds, as did Magic Kingdom.I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir- CuddlyCaucasian
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CuddlyCaucasian Professor of Being a Dog
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I guess on the show, challenge strength is more easily apparent like someone being visibly super jacked or a fast runner, but I wish it was valued more on tribes or seen as a reason to vote someone out of a tribe. But yeah with constant swaps there's no incentive to care about how many challenges your tribe wins in the long-term. Literally the main reason I started doing more challenge-based games is that challenge design takes up the most time in modding Survivor, and it's the aspect of the game the majority of people care the least about"CC is very [whatever the equivalent of photogenic as it applies to videos]" - racefan12
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- Shadoweh
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- Xalxe
- Shadoweh
- racefan12
- BROseidon
- Flameaxe
- Shadoweh
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- BROseidon
- racefan12
- Xalxe
- Aurathebirb
- BROseidon
- Xalxe
- BROseidon
- Cephrir
- Cephrir
- D3f3nd3r