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Haschel Cedricson
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Post Post #100  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:11 am

Did the opposing tribe in the TCs need a vote, versus being available to PM?

Giving them a single vote both prevented a 2-2 tie in the very first stage of the game and gave new players who weren't used to PMing for the sake of PMing a reason to keep communicating with others.
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Post Post #101  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:48 am

Would a 2-2 tie have been bad? are ties "bad" things?

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Post Post #102  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:53 am

I suppose we could have done firemaking. I don't think there's precedent for that so early in the game, though.
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Post Post #103  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:10 am

In post 98, BROseidon wrote:Tbh returning players is fine.

Returning players that we aren't told about is kind of bastard. Yeah, some people managed to guess it, but like when Monty was like "I think there are returning players" we were all like "oh no there definitely won't be he's crazy"

hey now speak for yourself :P

i figured there was a good chance he was right just because i couldn't otherwise explain why hannibal was online so much
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Post Post #104  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:33 am

TienShinhan.jpg

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Post Post #105  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:44 am

I think i told someone that Hannibal was online almost 24/7 on Asia and I wasn't surprised he kept it up

I was pretty convinced there were no returnees up until returnees happened
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Post Post #106  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:05 am

I didn't realize that players normally got spectator accounts once they were eliminated. I thought all those ex-players who kept showing up online were just really avid fans of the game and reading our confessionals!

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Post Post #107  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:17 pm

In post 98, BROseidon wrote:Tbh returning players is fine.

Returning players that we aren't told about is kind of bastard.

ye this is the problem

i personally dislike returning players/RI but if you know about it and can play around it, its fun! If it just happens and surprises you and Rend Blackhand/Hannibal comes back to spite you its less fun
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Post Post #108  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:24 pm

yes those are the only problematic returnees we've had! yup yup.
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Post Post #109  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:33 pm

In post 108, Cephrir wrote:yes those are the only problematic returnees we've had! yup yup.

At least Washington and Hannibal didn't design the next set of tribes, right? Hannibal's Old World and Washington's New World!
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Post Post #110  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:38 pm

There's also the other extreme, guys like Kirrahe in Mass Effect who were like "I'm going to vote once and then get myself modkilled for inactivity".

Returnee twists that are impossible to plan for definitely aren't good. I think this was the first returnee twist we've ever had where there wasn't a warning at the beginning of the game (Greece and its Redemption Island) and the players in the game had no say as to who returned (like Arkham Asylum where everyone alive got a vote, or Hogwarts/Mass Effect where it was a reward given to an individual player). I don't want to have to pray "please no returnees" in every single game I ever play onsite.
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Post Post #111  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:39 pm

And yes, I realize that because I was the one that got fucked over nobody is going to give what I just said any weight.
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Post Post #112  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:41 pm

In post 109, Shadoweh wrote:
In post 108, Cephrir wrote:yes those are the only problematic returnees we've had! yup yup.

At least Washington and Hannibal didn't design the next set of tribes, right? Hannibal's Old World and Washington's New World!

wow thats a twisted and unfair idea that would be pretty fucked
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Post Post #113  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:47 pm

Hey so returnees are stupid no matter how you do it, you get voted off you should stay DEAD

That being said, Terra Incognita is like a better Redemption Island
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Post Post #114  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:48 pm

In post 111, D3f3nd3r wrote:And yes, I realize that because I was the one that got fucked over nobody is going to give what I just said any weight.

Youre right on the money. Its not fun to wake up to getting screwed over
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Post Post #115  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:55 pm

Yeah but if there's a warning of "hey guys, the people you're voting out aren't gone for good!" maybe people do a little bit more to make sure they're not pissed at them.
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Post Post #116  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:34 pm

Also RI brought us the legacy of "fuck you Brad Culpepper."

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Post Post #117  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:36 pm

In post 115, D3f3nd3r wrote:Yeah but if there's a warning of "hey guys, the people you're voting out aren't gone for good!" maybe people do a little bit more to make sure they're not pissed at them.

yea thats what im talking about

if something is surprising but players have a way to play around it: good twist
if its just a surprise from something that seemed normal but turned out not to be?: bad twist

these games need legit reviewers, imo.
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Post Post #118  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:46 pm

I didn't think returneers were happening bc Gilgy was super confident in it because of a discussion he had with the mods
so I was like "if the mods said something that could be taken as someone being 100 percent sure dead ppl were coming back the mods would either confirm it to everyone or the twist wasnt happening"
but like then dead people did show up and I was like >.>

I was convinced dead people were not coming because because of how mods/players interacted/game was not described as high twist.
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Post Post #119  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:47 pm

Arkham City and Seafoam didn't announce their returnees, and the living players didn't have any say in those. This isn't the first time returnees have been a surprise. And Seafoam had the dead vote people back in rather than vote people out.

Serious question, does the show announce all of their twists to the players ahead of time? Or does it also surprise the players with new things to have to play around suddenly? I've only seen a few seasons so I'm not sure what the norm is.
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Post Post #120  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:55 pm

In post 119, xofelf wrote:Serious question, does the show announce all of their twists to the players ahead of time? Or does it also surprise the players with new things to have to play around suddenly? I've only seen a few seasons so I'm not sure what the norm is.

these are different questions

surprises happen but on the show they are never like "SURPRISE, your fate is fucked". The cases where it does happen get panned by fans/players. The average ms game right now is considerably more twisty than the twistiest seasons of the show. Auctions are usually one advantage and its something "low powered" like an advantage in the next challenge. Notably it happened in pearl islands, and everyone hated it and it never came back.

Something can be surprising. It shouldn't be secretly surprising while looking the same as something normal.
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Post Post #121  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:00 pm

I feel like Big Brother is usually wayyyy more twisty than Survivor. These twists are almost always announced though (unless a player re-enters, that's not usually announced)

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Post Post #122  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:29 pm

When they do Redemption Island, players know it exists. And that's the only time the show has players re-enter the game AFAIK.
There are shock swaps ("Drop your buffs! We're switching tribes!" comes to mind) but anything extra is usually announced at the start of the season.

I think Arkham City, at least, warned people "Hey this is gonna be twisty and bastardy!" and it had that reputation so people knew what they were getting into.

The obfuscation of important information just to be able to go "Ooooh gotcha!" later is a bad modding practice that I'm sure I'm guilty of as well, but for this game:
- No warning on returnees, leading to a feeling of "two steps forward and one step back" at merge. All that sweet momentum got destroyed.
- No warning on returnees, leading to a feeling of being blindsided by the mods.
- Coins were awarded in a complete vacuum with no specific information on how to attain them, leading to some head scratching.
- Coins were awarded without context for performance: was 5 good? Or could I have gotten 10? It made trying to guess how many other players had kind of impossible.

When you do stuff like that, I think players being frustrated is kind of an unfortunate side effect.

Furthermore: Blasting 16 items into the game, even if they don't have a ton of effect (which I would argue the ability to tie a vote is very powerful), it adds needless complexity. Now, it's on the players to try to keep up with all the items and who won what and where did they go and how much gold did that person have and etc.

PLUS with 16 items, whether you get one or not winds up being partially dumb luck, as evidenced by Alex's low bids.

PLUS...doing well in challenges already rewards you with immunity. Why are we overvaluing challenge performance even more? Not only do they get to ride through pre-merge safe, and have a better shot at winning later challenges, but now they also get to have an advantage by buying more items?

Here's how you fix this game IMO:

#1) During signups, announce ahead of time there will be some "heavy twists".
#2) Delete the gold mechanic completely.
#3) After the game goes live, establish in a mod post that there will be returnees, either directly stating it or leaving it as vague flavor clues which you then clarify after the first eliminations.
#4) [delete and/or reword the Enlightenment challenge]
#5) Cap the number of items at the number of players at merge and include more joke dud items like the pizza deliver / Doge's Bling from NAH.

There. You now have a solid game of Survivor that would be nearly unassailable.
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Post Post #123  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:32 pm

I think the protectionist stance mods have about not wanting to spill the beans too much during signups is fine. It's a natural thing to want your twists to be surprised.

But...once players are "on the island", I don't see a reason to hide information anymore.

And yes, the show doesn't tell people applying what the idea/theme of the season is going to be... but we're not applying to win $1,000,000. We're applying and basically signing away 2-3 months of our free time to play a game for the sake of fun and community. Therefore, I think it's fair on forum games to let people know what they're getting into.
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Post Post #124  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:35 pm

In post 122, xRECKONERx wrote:When they do Redemption Island, players know it exists. And that's the only time the show has players re-enter the game AFAIK.


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