Survivor: Civilization - Congratulations Boudica!!!

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
xRECKONERx
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Post Post #125  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:36 pm

Well yeah, and then they burned that twist with fire 14 years ago and never used it again.
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Iprobablysuck
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Post Post #126  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:37 pm

Fair
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Post Post #127  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:38 pm

In post 122, xRECKONERx wrote:#2) Delete the gold mechanic completely.

i think gold mechanic was fine probably should have just been defined a bit clearer
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Post Post #128  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:38 pm

but yea, survior takes itself quite seriously and doesn't throw much into the game. There are a few bad twists that have been done that they were like "oops, our bad" and promptly never did again.
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Post Post #129  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:43 pm

I think the gold thing is fine because it fit the theme, I just wished the mechanics on it were clear.

I didn't hate it but of course it encourages one play style over another. I think it was a good idea to try tho because being good at challenges isn't really a great thing in these games, like usually it should give you some saftey to reach merge in real survivor but in these games the challenges are so different that there aren't maany people who are like these huge assets to a tribe. This game gave people who are good at challenges more reason to perform well but it wasn't explained and no one had any idea what it did. like if it said "hey doing well on challenges will benefit your game later!" would fix it a lot.

my biggest thing was that there was really little clarity. I had no idea how Oslo interacted with certain things and I had to directly ask the mods/I felt bamboozeled because the mods gave me the information for the most part but I had to ask like 20 questions/at final 5 I was shocked I couldnt play it on the vacation bc I was given misleading information which I didn't think was fair at all.
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Post Post #130  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:47 pm

PLUS...doing well in challenges already rewards you with immunity. Why are we overvaluing challenge performance even more? Not only do they get to ride through pre-merge safe, and have a better shot at winning later challenges, but now they also get to have an advantage by buying more items?
I'll have more to say when I get home and this kind of dovetails into an essay I have planned for the other thread, but this community UNDERvalues challenge performance to a ridiculous extent and this was a direct challenge to that.
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Post Post #131  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:52 pm

if i reviewed id do:
I) tell them about the returnees

II) Fewer items. Weaker items. These things were powerful. Chatzy/Vacation/Tiebreaker/MULTIPLE DOUBLE VOTES AND NULLIFIERS/idol/challenge adv. This stuff adds up extremely fast. Esp when most of these were mystery

III) clearer definitions on *exactly* what each item does. Multiple double votes can do a lot more than break ties...

IV) Clear definitions on what gold is and how its earned

V) When you found tech it says "whoever has highest score in 24 hours gets it". or something like that?

VI) NO HINTING TO PLAYERS THAT THERE ARE RETURNEES******** this is a serious problem. How mods talk to players has to be extremely, extremely careful/limited. Mod/player relations *have* to be extremely professional and tight lipped.

VII) Not a low twist game at all. This on a scale of 1-5 would be a 4. Leading people to think otherwise really made it less fun for players. That first round was fun, but people probably expected that to kinda be the end of major twists. That was already a huge deal.

IX) That first auction shouldn't have passed review

X) That f4 tiebreaker rule was...not good (though I would have let it be included)

XI) The tech's weren't balanced at all. A idol is much stronger than a vote nullifier and having no way to decipher which one is which was just bad design, IMO. Should have been something to indicate what each one did.
Last edited by hiplop on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #132  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:53 pm

In post 130, Haschel Cedricson wrote:but this community UNDERvalues challenge performance to a ridiculous extent and this was a direct challenge to that.


yeah I thought the coin thing was fun for that reason.
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Post Post #133  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:56 pm

In real survivor you work hard for your tribe and you are usually rewarded for that.
I don't think that happens here so it was nice to get something in return for carrying a tribe.
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Post Post #134  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:06 pm

Does the show even value tribal challenge performance nowadays? They'll edit in someone saying "Do we vote this person out even though it'll be bad for us in challenges?" at some point most seasons and then they vote out that person anyway. I don't feel like that rewarded individual performance in tribal challenges nearly as much as it rewarded getting lucky enough to have a tribe that would win challenges. The reward each time for winning a challenge was considerably larger than anything an individual could receive for their own successes.

Remember that I've been the person that yells "TRANSPARENCY TRANSPARENCY TRANSPARENCY" in most mods' faces since PSV. And that's been me yelling about things a lot more minor than this.
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Post Post #135  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:08 pm

i mean theres a reason people like Ozzy/Joe have always made the merge and then are voted out immediately when they are vulnerable.

the best challenge performer is very, very rarely voted out pre merge. Sometimes its a "which one of these scrubs is better?" but Ozzy/Malcolm/Jay/Joe are never in those spots
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Post Post #136  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Snowballing in challenges is very real.

On the show, rewards compound it, but even mentally once you start losing challenges, it all goes to shit. Like, i don't go on my challenge spree without my crushing victory in Borobudur.

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Post Post #137  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Fuck it, I would say that if I hadn't misclicked the first challenge, America never goes to TC

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Post Post #138  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:13 pm

In post 137, BROseidon wrote:Fuck it, I would say that if I hadn't misclicked the first challenge, America never goes to TC


Thaaaat is a tad ridiculous

EDIT well maybe not but beating Africa was not easy
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Post Post #139  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:16 pm

In post 130, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
PLUS...doing well in challenges already rewards you with immunity. Why are we overvaluing challenge performance even more? Not only do they get to ride through pre-merge safe, and have a better shot at winning later challenges, but now they also get to have an advantage by buying more items?
I'll have more to say when I get home and this kind of dovetails into an essay I have planned for the other thread, but this community UNDERvalues challenge performance to a ridiculous extent and this was a direct challenge to that.

the solution to this problem is less swaps
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Post Post #140  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:17 pm

In post 139, Cephrir wrote:
In post 130, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
PLUS...doing well in challenges already rewards you with immunity. Why are we overvaluing challenge performance even more? Not only do they get to ride through pre-merge safe, and have a better shot at winning later challenges, but now they also get to have an advantage by buying more items?
I'll have more to say when I get home and this kind of dovetails into an essay I have planned for the other thread, but this community UNDERvalues challenge performance to a ridiculous extent and this was a direct challenge to that.

the solution to this problem is less swaps

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

challenges are important if you think youre going to be on a tribe more than 2 rounds.
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Post Post #141  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:33 pm

High-swap games can be good (see GoT), but they don't all need to have swaps every 2 rounds.

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Post Post #142  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:51 pm

In post 138, Iprobablysuck wrote:
In post 137, BROseidon wrote:Fuck it, I would say that if I hadn't misclicked the first challenge, America never goes to TC


Thaaaat is a tad ridiculous

EDIT well maybe not but beating Africa was not easy


We barely lost the 2nd and 3rd challenges. Non-tilted me just hard carries it all.

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Post Post #143  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:54 pm

GoT didn't feel that swap-heavy, which was weird. It was two days in the traveling tribes, three cycles in the first actual phase, two in the second (three boots since one was a double TC), and one in the third. Maybe it was before the no-day-off-between-TC-and-challenge movement started and that's why it felt longer.
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Post Post #144  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:18 pm

is it well known amongst y'all that Terra Incognita members originally had the opportunity to buy stuff at the auction?

Because not all of us would've survived it, that would've possibly gotten some of those sixteen items out of play. The reason it was scrapped was because Catherine and I still had access to Old World forums and thus I tried to strategize and outbid people for stuff (it could've happened with New World too but with Hatshepsut being out there wasn't anyone who could see that forum).

Essentially, it just means the review of that challenge wasn't as fine-tooth-combed as it should've been. It adds more work, but as with any Mafia game mods and reviewers definitely need to consider all the possibilities of each twist and item.

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Post Post #145  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:40 pm

I don't really feel like challenges not being important is a bad thing?? I think in most cases survivor is and should mainly be a social game. Plus I don't really feel like there's a good way to make challenges more meaningful either.

Like having there be Ozzy/Joe/Malcolm isn't necessarily a good thing imo. From what I've seen the main way to really allow people to be a beast would be to have a lack of challenge diversity and if anybody remembers the constant jigsaw puzzles from MLS, people weren't happy with those. Sure a challenge beast can be fun to watch, but when you're powerless to do anything about them it's going to get frustrating for a player and just lead to complaints of a different type.

And in this setting I think challenges are just going to be a bit more meaningless than they would on the shot? In the show they constantly have reward challenges in addition to immunity for things like pillows, tarps, food, flint, etc. but in this setting we're not all starving on an island so that stuff isn't going to mean anything to most people. The only real way to add any extra incentives besides immunity is more pizza gift cards, but that requires a monetary investment by the mods and nobody wants to blow hundreds of dollars modding a game just to be able to offer those constantly, so the only other real things you can offer is reward items and from what I can tell I don't think anybody's been particularly happy with the large amount of reward items Civ had.

just my 2 cents~
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Post Post #146  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:54 pm

I agree, you don't need pre-merge challenge performance to mean things post-merge. Especially since on the real show, it usually means bad things. And there's not really any dominant post-merge challenge performer a lot of the time...first two I can think of other than this game were Jesse in Season Finale and Tyrion in Thrones. Both several years ago.
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Post Post #147  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:12 am

This is a deep discussion. I agree with pretty much everyone because you have to admit, these are some pretty good discussions

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Post Post #148  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:33 am

In post 145, Aronis wrote:I don't really feel like challenges not being important is a bad thing?? I think in most cases survivor is and should mainly be a social game. Plus I don't really feel like there's a good way to make challenges more meaningful either.

The game is Outwit, Outplay and Outlast. Which parts of that are more important to each person is debatable, but the hardest part of each game to design is the mechanics and the 16 or so minigames in the form of challenges so they should be important in some way. Honestly, I think the reason no one likes challenge winners is people begin to see them not as people, but as mechanics in the game fucking with them, basically the npc obstacles they have to work around and defeat.


D3f3nd3r wrote:I agree, you don't need pre-merge challenge performance to mean things post-merge. Especially since on the real show, it usually means bad things. And there's not really any dominant post-merge challenge performer a lot of the time...first two I can think of other than this game were Jesse in Season Finale and Tyrion in Thrones. Both several years ago.

I dunno, I think Summer is getting good at this. :V The last 5 games including this one had someone go on an immunity run, 2 had the run stop short of the finals and 2 had the immunity runner go to FTC when they would have been voted out instead. I don't know if Azmodan "needed" to win FIC but boy howdy was he @#$^ing good at it.
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Post Post #149  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:27 am

In post 148, Shadoweh wrote:
In post 145, Aronis wrote:I don't really feel like challenges not being important is a bad thing?? I think in most cases survivor is and should mainly be a social game. Plus I don't really feel like there's a good way to make challenges more meaningful either.

The game is Outwit, Outplay and Outlast. Which parts of that are more important to each person is debatable, but the hardest part of each game to design is the mechanics and the 16 or so minigames in the form of challenges so they should be important in some way. Honestly, I think the reason no one likes challenge winners is people begin to see them not as people, but as mechanics in the game fucking with them, basically the npc obstacles they have to work around and defeat.


D3f3nd3r wrote:I agree, you don't need pre-merge challenge performance to mean things post-merge. Especially since on the real show, it usually means bad things. And there's not really any dominant post-merge challenge performer a lot of the time...first two I can think of other than this game were Jesse in Season Finale and Tyrion in Thrones. Both several years ago.

I dunno, I think Summer is getting good at this. :V The last 5 games including this one had someone go on an immunity run, 2 had the run stop short of the finals and 2 had the immunity runner go to FTC when they would have been voted out instead. I don't know if Azmodan "needed" to win FIC but boy howdy was he @#$^ing good at it.

You can outwit, outplay, and outlast people socially w/o any need to win a challenge
And mechanics do tend to end up being pretty important? Like it depends on your definition of what a mechanic is, but like if we're taking about death row 2.0 it clearly had an impact on the game
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