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I think how consistently well Summer, myself (when I'm not tilted off the face of the earth), Klick, etc do in challenges is indicative of challenge strength not being random.

Like specific people definitely have their strengths (Klick with flash games, me with anything very weird/novel, etc), but there is definitely a shortlist of "potential challenge beasts"

So is the problem here that challenge beasts aren't being valued enough? Cause I feel like that can take care of itself in terms of like at merge you can just go on a challenge run and win (now juries not properly respecting that play could be a problem) until people learn to vote you out. As far as premerge goes that's a double edged sword, cause if you get heavily valued then you're gonna get killed asap at merge, so do you really want to be seen as a huge challenge threat there?

it's kind of an interesting dynamic in the show where the premerge is more dangerous for weak challenge players. sure that's less pronounced in recent seasons but it's still part of the conversation

Yeah, but I feel like there's no easy way to maintain that without really long tribal phases, longer than the show even. We're not going to be able to copy every element of the show like that for the obvious reason of not actually spending 39 days on an island. There's no shelter to be built, no sense of physical and mental attrition, that kind of stuff. Even in Medevac that stuff isn't a factor.

In post 148, Shadoweh wrote:The game is Outwit, Outplay and Outlast. Which parts of that are more important to each person is debatable, but the hardest part of each game to design is the mechanics and the 16 or so minigames in the form of challenges so they should be important in some way. Honestly, I think the reason no one likes challenge winners is people begin to see them not as people, but as mechanics in the game fucking with them, basically the npc obstacles they have to work around and defeat.

this is a good post

also HEAVY COSIGN whoever said the way to put value on challenge performance is to decrease swaps.

In post 139, Cephrir wrote:the solution to this problem is less swaps

taddaaaa

this is super important imo
even in the real thing challenge ability is less valued when you think you are only going to be on a tribe for like 2 rounds

like in neds I gave zero fucks for challenges because I knew I was going to be safe/control the vote. Like even in here Boudica didn't perform great pre merge but at merge the switch is flipped. I don't understand why anyone would try in a challenge and get labelled "challenge threat" when they are going to be lots of swaps.... like here people are stilled considered threats if they perform well in challenge, it may not be "this person is a challenge beast" but it will be "this person is a threat, they are goood at challenges and such and such" I believe on MS you are still punished within the game for being good at challenges, especially if you show that in premerge. I think if anything it acts an excuse to target someone at merge. "Blair is so amazing at challenges (and like really hard to talk to) we need to vote her out"and things like that. Being goood at challenges pre merge raises your threat level but it also gives you no saftey during the premerge period. If it was valued more/A LOT less swaps then people who are stronger socially but are horrible at challenges might suffer more premerge which I am happy with because there is still the flip of at merge people being wary of others who performed welll in premerge challenges. I think there are quite a few people here who are better at challenges/not as social who we see leave premerge all the time because no one really cares about how people perform. I also think its more than people being challenge beasts its that there are people who really suck at challenges, like will always get the lowest scores/least helpful in a challenge who get by because they are likable.

Like Dan in School Survivor should have been in a little bit of danger because I showed up to like 2 challenges and did nothing but because of a lot of swaps/my social game I was never worried. I just think as of right now the people who are good at challenges have no reason to perform well, which is weird because in real survivor people are not itching to throw challenges, I am not even sure how many people who are good at challenges feel like its fine to throw them here but I see it as a good strategy if you are positioned well to survive to merge. That also is weird when you have people who are good at challenges/not particularly likable doing their hardest to win immunity for their tribe with also people who are likable/good at challenges not caring about the challenges.

basically rn performing well premerge still gives you a target (to some extent)
if you suck at challenges that will not hurt your chance of surviving premerge
so why would anyone who is both likable/good at challenges try in a challenge?

need someone to talk me out of why this isn't the best strategy for players like myself with how most of games on ms are very swapy

The last game I can think of that had tribes last more than 3 rounds is BotB.

Unless you count the joint TCs in Ned's which kind of don't count TBH

Didn't Old World/New World last 4 rounds?

Catherine boot/Hattie boot/Liz boot/Montezuma boot?

Oh it totally did.

Maybe 4 is the upper cap.

Watching people freak out because OW/NW wasn't ending was hilarious.

tribe swaps are bad tbh

I was so confused.

A tribal phase lasted more than 2 rounds!

I hated that old world couldn't fathom the idea of losing one more tribe member... But not until after I was eliminated

It doesn't help that most pre-merge challenges tend to be designed in a way that a couple people can carry the entire challenge. Usually what gets people voted out on the show is fucking up a challenge single-handedly, but in so many of the ones in MS games, you can abstain from contributing whatsoever and no one will know whether you suck or not

In post 159, BROseidon wrote:Oh it totally did.

Maybe 4 is the upper cap.

Are we not familiar with the shit-show that was Bahamas? They were in a set of tribes for eight whole TCs. (There was then a palongo.)

In post 164, CuddlyCaucasian wrote:It doesn't help that most pre-merge challenges tend to be designed in a way that a couple people can carry the entire challenge. Usually what gets people voted out on the show is fucking up a challenge single-handedly, but in so many of the ones in MS games, you can abstain from contributing whatsoever and no one will know whether you suck or not

This is a legitimate issue.

It's too hard by MS challenge design to single-handedly lose a challenge. A lot of the challenges are either bouts, or things that individuals can just SUPER hard-carry.

We tried to do a few things to find a happy medium but as you mentioned it's incredibly hard to do. I kind of liked Neuschwanstein being bouts but allowing tribes to discuss strategies and whatnot. I'm not sure how much that added, though.

In post 166, BROseidon wrote:

In post 164, CuddlyCaucasian wrote:It doesn't help that most pre-merge challenges tend to be designed in a way that a couple people can carry the entire challenge. Usually what gets people voted out on the show is fucking up a challenge single-handedly, but in so many of the ones in MS games, you can abstain from contributing whatsoever and no one will know whether you suck or not

This is a legitimate issue.

It's too hard by MS challenge design to single-handedly lose a challenge. A lot of the challenges are either bouts, or things that individuals can just SUPER hard-carry.

This was a discussion I've been having with various people since I got here, with Mario Bros and then the design stuff that went into Bahamas. Finding ways to involve everybody in challenges is really important. I remember paying this a ton of mind in the Bahamas pre-merge but then since the climate changed, I didn't care at all about it when designing Bands.

Yeah the real thing is you kind of need to make challenges that require people to work together, but then people have to be online at the same time and that can be hard.

Well there's always a way to make stuff individual but still give everybody a part in it. There was the Solipskier challenge, both duel challenges (dots and boxes, and the bells), the challenge with the six different types of puzzles, etc.

EDIT: Plus, you could always have challenges done in small groups within a tribe. My games have tried this with Password in Bands and the Chain Reaction bonus round in Bahamas. Allowing a tribe to split up makes things a little bit easier on them.

Woah! This ended and I missed it!!!

Sorry I disappeared
I prolly had a chance otherwise!

I don't think you were nearly talkative enough to get much further than you did, to be honest. Nobody really felt much of a connection to you on Asia and that's why we got rid of you quickly.

In post 172, D3f3nd3r wrote:I don't think you were nearly talkative enough to get much further than you did, to be honest. Nobody really felt much of a connection to you on Asia and that's why we got rid of you quickly.

Really??

I thought I was doing a great job on that front!

Live and learn I guess! Ari will be more talkative than ever the next time he plays!!!

I was doing far better in the Terra until I stopped being able to. I honestly thought I had masterminded everything so I could get back into the game, setting up allies and lying to get my way. Worked out for the most part.
Perhaps I talked game instead of personal too much?

Oh, and congrats Bro!!
Well payed!