Final Two or Final Three?

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:37 pm

F3s are less competitive when players know that they're coming because they can pick who they want to be there
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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:57 pm

In post 49, hiplop wrote:^ I think that's some bs tbh


Wut part

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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:00 pm

I tend to agree with BRO here. I think F3s are more competitive. And...if you're losing votes to the spoiler effect or because two good players are splitting votes and someone "undeserving" is winning...then the people who split the votes did not play optimally and shouldn't have brought each other to the end to split the votes.

I know I've actively considered that in games before. It's why I refused to work with Boudica in Civ, because our games were too similar.

I also don't think it has really happened that vote splits have caused issues. The only one of those five winners I can remember there being some controversy around re: split votes was Karass, but I think the people that didn't vote for her all had her as #2 and likely would've voted for her in a heads-up situation against either of the other two finalists anyway. I suppose there's some salt at Blackberry trollvoting Garen at FTC and giving Shaco the win. I dunno, I think it makes it even better to have to consider the calculus.

I'd also prefer a close vote and surprising result based on split votes to someone just blowing someone else out of the water and it not even being close, I think/
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:09 pm

In post 48, BROseidon wrote:Part of why F3s have been non-competitive on the show also has to do with changes to how Ponderosa works and players caring more about fan-responses to their jury votes in a meta sense. I don't think it's an issue with F3s as much as it is an issue with that metagame.

i just dont think this is a thing at all
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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:15 pm

I've only seen 4 seasons of the show and F3 was more interesting to me as a viewer because every F2 was painfully obvious who was going to win. Even in the last season I watched Season 28 where the last challenge winner for some reason didn't pick the goat, it was obvious that the person who picked was going to lose.
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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:15 pm

Tbf Lulu deserved to lose for that FTC performance. That was a very bad way to end an otherwise very good game.

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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:16 pm

And like Karass won because Tracer imploded at FTC

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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:17 pm

my biggest issue with f3s is that it just grants the outsider so much pwoer when that isn't the case in an f2.
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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:17 pm

the "outsider"?
.

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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:18 pm

In post 57, hiplop wrote:my biggest issue with f3s is that it just grants the outsider so much pwoer when that isn't the case in an f2.


The Yates theory doesn't hold up that well, I don't think.
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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:20 pm

If players A and B were close allies, player C comes in with and advantage since players A and B compete for the same votes, while player C has their own set of votes.

It's like Will said wrt Civ. He didn't want me at the end because our games were very similar, so me being in FTC competes for votes that liked the style of play we were both going for

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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:20 pm

In post 59, Xalxe wrote:
In post 57, hiplop wrote:my biggest issue with f3s is that it just grants the outsider so much pwoer when that isn't the case in an f2.


The Yates theory doesn't hold up that well, I don't think.


Weirdly enough, she's an exception to her own theory. That said, it's not totally wrong

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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:22 pm

In post 60, BROseidon wrote:If players A and B were close allies, player C comes in with and advantage since players A and B compete for the same votes, while player C has their own set of votes.

It's like Will said wrt Civ. He didn't want me at the end because our games were very similar, so me being in FTC competes for votes that liked the style of play we were both going for


Something that encourages backstabbing isn't always terrible though.
.

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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:30 pm

Make bigger alliances
How do you even get to the merge without being alllied to half of it anyways?
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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:44 pm

I have opinions but honestly they both have their merits. For all of the problems with F2s, I like that they can produce interesting, unexpected winners (even if the FTC itself is slightly less competitive) and there is something so exciting about there only being two people left. Maybe some of that's nostalgia, but I just find F2s more dramatic and conclusive.

F3s probably work better on the show because of the high number of goats/totally unvotable contestants compared to MS and they probably do have more competitive FTCs generally speaking, however they also can lead to the person who sweeps the FTC vote getting there more often which I think is less interesting and there's spoiler effect stuff that I guess falls somewhat on the players, but that's still a sucky way to lose.

Also our sample size is still a bit small to really make sweeping conclusions about F3s, but given that on this site anyway we've never had a zero vote getting third place contestant, the spoiler effect is literally impossible to avoid. All you can do is attempt to minimize it.

I dunno, I like both. I don't think we should totally swap to one or the other. I do prefer that it is either known or can be easily deduced if it's a F2 or F3 though. I think players having information is important because it's hard to plan for both.

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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:49 pm

Someone being able to win via F3's because they were able to socially convince their allies not to vote them out is a feature to me, not a bug like some of y'all seem to be arguing.
It's supposed to be the best Social Game and the more voting teamwork F-R-I-E-N-D-S-H-I-P etc is made irrelevant the further we get from that.
Like.. isn't the game getting away from alliances and becoming about idols big moves firemaking etc what people don't like?

I am not an unbiased person arguing this, of course. F3's are much more suited towards someone like me who can barely win challenges to save their life. It actually hits on another problem I have with F3 FICs on the forum which is immunity challenges are very often random and biased towards people like Klick or Drench who are good at flash games/have good reflexes. At least we've moved away from 24-48 hour endurance challenges..
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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:08 pm

In post 65, Shadoweh wrote:At least we've moved away from 24-48 hour endurance challenges..

Oh have we? :twisted:
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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:11 pm

Every endurance challenge ever: Here are the scores!

Person who can't type words to save their life: 10 minutes!
5 people with 9-5 jobs: 1 hour whoo!
Botted program that automatically posts the correct phrase/Snakes: 48 hours!
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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:24 pm

In post 66, xofelf wrote:
In post 65, Shadoweh wrote:At least we've moved away from 24-48 hour endurance challenges..

Oh have we? :twisted:


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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:43 pm

In post 65, Shadoweh wrote:It's supposed to be the best Social Game

Its not supposed to be anything.
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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

In post 58, zoraster wrote:the "outsider"?

Say a duo dominates the game strategically

Person outside duo does little, that person v likely to win due to splitting votes and even just optics
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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:37 pm

In post 70, hiplop wrote:
In post 58, zoraster wrote:the "outsider"?

Say a duo dominates the game strategically

Person outside duo does little, that person v likely to win due to splitting votes and even just optics


I mean one of two said duo people totally could've prevented that situation(unless theres the xD firemaking challenge f4 thing happening.)

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f2s are better from an ideal perspective, f3s are better in practice(by a little bit.)
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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:56 pm

In post 37, Skelda wrote:The fact that the average winner in F3s only get 48% of the vote is terrible.

this is my main problem

do F3 with preferential ballots
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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:15 pm

tag drench

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Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:26 pm

Do Jury members in most MS Survivor games get a chance to talk to each other about how they're going to vote?
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