Allocate/Execute III--LIVE REVEAL--WINNER REVEALED!


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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Empire »

Oh, it was 100% a good thing, no doubt about it.
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:00 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 171, D3f3nd3r wrote:
In post 158, Empire wrote:Honestly, D3f, I've been debating whether to wait to respond but I can't anymore because Skelda's arguments to you about my thought process are based on inferences that have zero basis in reality and only goes to show how his perception of my game is warped by what I laid out for him. Like, I literally have a conversation log with Meme where we were discussing F3 candidates and I mentioned your name saying that even if you make a big move, it is unlikely you would have very many votes remaining and thus would have no future control over the game. I can't really speak to whether other people spoke to him about you so all I can tell you is what happened on my end.

The reason I didn't put myself in the position where I had to make the choice at the end was because I didn't have to. By that point, I was confident enough in my game and secure enough that Skelda was going to take me to the end no matter what that I prioritized securing the Meme boot because he was the biggest threat remaining. If I really felt like I was in any danger at all, you bet your ass I would have undercommitted on Meme and then set myself up to get rid of whoever I wanted at the end. But I didn't need to and that's the point.
There are enough clear lapses in his thought process from that post that it's clear he's missing a lot in how he thought about stuff those last couple rounds.
I really disagree with this, but obviously I would. It's not really a specific enough argument that I even know how to address it, I guess it's for the Jury to decide.
In post 149, Skelda wrote: So first of all, I find it kind of interesting that you are simultaneously saying that you want to vote for neither Empire nor myself and you are claiming that I made this massive mistake by taking him to the end.
I have to vote because that's how these games work (for those of you keeping score at home, I legitimately thought I voted at FTC in Mario Bros but I guess I didn't). My first comment is that I'm upset at both of you for how I was handled at the end of the game. My second was me trying to consider the fact that yes, I'm actually supposed to vote for somebody at the end of this game, and it was me trying to figure out who I would want to get rid of. Yes, I am convinced that I had very little of a case to win the game, and I told you how clueless I was throughout the game. I literally had no idea about any of the alliances that existed. If you picked me over Empire, Empire, or Shadow, or xof, or Meme, or Aronis, would have pointed that out and I'd be lucky to get more than one vote.
Okay I mean like look, if that's the case then I made the wrong decision but that isn't really an argument against my game since like I pointed out, by not taking Immunity for himself Empire implicitly made the same decision.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:So like, I don't really know what I should have done to get you to be happy with me other than not vote you out
You didn't have the decency to end our conversation Saturday morning. You didn't have the decency to talk to me at all in the full twenty-two and a half hours between that and when you actually posted your message, even to provide a simple apology. You tried in your post where you voted for me, but just rehashing the same points you told me in private just a day prior doesn't count as a success. Empire didn't have the decency to talk to me at all...he explained it, but it's not like that makes it forgivable in terms of it affecting my vote.
Okay well I'm sorry about that, I should have messaged you. Saturday was particularly busy for me and I thought that since I'd told you that I was voting you out that night before that I didn't need to just have the same conversation again since nothing had changed, but if that's what you wanted then and it would have made you feel better then I guess I should have.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:Empire made the same decision as me.
Nope. You decided to take Empire to the end. Empire decided to take you to the end. Some of the reasoning for getting rid of me is the same, but not all of it, because you two are clearly fighting for the same set of votes here and are making different arguments to discredit the other one's game because you two played different games. You're claiming that because Woo picked Tony to go to FTC with him in Cagayan in order for him to make the honorable decision, inherently if Tony wanted to pick Woo it would have had to be for the exact same reason, which is hilarious to think about when Tony was so, so far from honorable as a Survivor player.
No that's not what I'm claiming. I'm not saying that Empire and I played the same game, but I am claiming that you can't chastise me for taking him to the end without also chastising him since presumably it would be an easy win for both of us either way if the way you see it is how it actually was. What I'm claiming is that we both thought our best chance at winning was going with each other and that was the ultimate reason why you were eliminated, which I still believe to be the case. You need to find other ways to differentiate us and I believe that my game was better because I came up with the plan that ultimately got us to this position in the first place, if I never approach Empire to go to the end with one of Mallow/Menno/Shrek, I don't believe that it happens and we wouldn't have been able to pull this off. I think that's the crucial differentiating factor and why I deserve to win.
Completely separate note. Say Empire and Meme aren't able to convince me to keep paying attention to the game, so I use the remainder of my votes on Shadoweh without telling anyone (as I was initially going to do) and she goes at F11. What happens from there, just out of curiosity? Does that actually change things?
I think I'd probably be fine? You wouldn't have enough votes to really do anything at that point, so I think we would probably have just kept Aronis around for a few more rounds than we did. I mean it's really impossible to say, but I think because of how I was positioned in my alliance I wasn't going to be in direct danger from people taking snipes and I could have made it to the end even if you did that
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:08 pm

Post by Shrek »

Okay, what actually goes on in these games? The extent of my knowledge of this game was that one person with a pink-haired profile picture on Discord told me I was a target, so I dumped all of my votes on Vash.

This is basically the main case for why non-anonymous games are awful-- people who haven't been here since 2002 are at a serious disadvantage.
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:10 pm

Post by Shrek »

You guys are talking about the Final Eleven and how to win from there? My issue was getting to the next day without having to use all 51 of my votes. It would have been impossible for me (and WAS impossible for many pre-jurors) to get where I am without vote-dumping on someone and riding out immunities.
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:13 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

"pink haired profile" I think that's Aronis.
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:16 pm

Post by CaptainMeme »

ARONIS *shakes fist*
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:16 pm

Post by CaptainMeme »

Or Xof maybe
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:17 pm

Post by Skelda »

Vijarada's summary, according to Skelda.

SaveTheDragons--17th Place (STD was going to dump his votes on someone. We didn't know who for sure, so we all got together enough votes to send him home instead and also to try to get him to adopt a different strategy)
Cheery Dog--16th Place (I honestly don't remember why we voted out Cheery Dog other than he wasn't in our seven person alliance and we just needed to vote for someone.)
VashtaNeurotic--15th Place (My alliance decides that the vote should be Shrek, which I begrudgingly accept despite the fact that I really like Shrek because it's too early for me to be rocking the boat. However, Shrek winds up choosing to dump his votes and takes out Vash which makes me really happy because I know that Vash would have wanted to eliminate me at some point and I was fully prepared to have to deal with him when the time came, but Shrek took care of him for me)
Deathnote--14th Place (DN isn't talking much so he's the next vote)
Iprobablysuck--13th Place (Vij tells Shadow that IPS wants to take out a social threat, so IPS is voted out)
Fluminatour--12th Place (Flum is plotting to eliminate a big player soon, and because it's too early for for my game he is voted out)
Vijarada--11th Place (Vij is voted out. I don't really remember the circumstances tbh, we just agreed to vote out Vij as an alliance and so it was)
Aronis--10th Place (Our alliance turns on its own for the first time, mostly prompted by Meme who is worried about Aronis' connections to other people outside of alliance, and Aronis tries to eliminate Shadow I believe. Also during this round I approach Meme about the plan to go to the end together)
Xofelf--9th Place (Shadow and Mallow are voting for Menno, Empire and then Meme come to me and tell me that D3f wants to do Xof, I ultimately agree to the plan but I don't tell D3f that I know and I vote for Menno)
Shrek--8th Place (We need to eliminate one of the people without votes in order to not be shut out of the endgame, and because Menno is Immune the vote is Shrek)
McMenno--7th Place (Mallow is the vote because I want to go to the end with Menno, however Mallow dumps his votes on Menno and eliminates him. Shadow also finds out about her blindside the following round through a crosspost, but she is ultimately convinced that it was a joke)
Shadoweh--6th Place (Shadow is voted out because she has the most votes out of anyone and we can't beat her in the end)
CaptainMeme--5th Place (Meme is voted out because D3f is Immune and I want the final three to be me, Mallow, and Empire)
D3f3nd3r--4th Place (I have a majority of the votes left and I vote for D3f for the reasons that I've already explained)

You're welcome. :) The early rounds in particular may be a little fuzzy because my memory isn't the best that far back
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:22 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 178, Shrek wrote:You guys are talking about the Final Eleven and how to win from there? My issue was getting to the next day without having to use all 51 of my votes. It would have been impossible for me (and WAS impossible for many pre-jurors) to get where I am without vote-dumping on someone and riding out immunities.
I think you not having a Discord in the beginning was a massive, massive disadvantage because by the time you joined Discord, a majority alliance had already formed and you were kind of out to dry. I will say that I didn't know the majority of people in this game that well before signing up, like I even talked to Xof saying I was unsure how I would do because of that, Meme and Empire were both people who I hadn't really ever worked with when I started this game but we still ended up aligned.

I think because of the way this game worked with some people not having many votes and there not being Immunity challenges, it was way way easier to plan in advance than it usually is.
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:37 pm

Post by Skelda »

@Xof

Image

I included a grumpy Harald looming in the background plotting to split us up. :( :(
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:42 pm

Post by CaptainMeme »

In post 182, Skelda wrote: Aronis--10th Place (Our alliance turns on its own for the first time, mostly prompted by Meme who is worried about Aronis' connections to other people outside of alliance, and Aronis tries to eliminate Shadow I believe. Also during this round I approach Meme about the plan to go to the end together)

Not that it makes much of a difference, but it was me who approached you about going to the end together in that round - specifically because you'd been trying to shift the target off'ff D3f in the alliance chat, and I was trying to get to a position with D3f where I could make a move with him against our alliance if necessary, so I thought we could work together on that.

Something I do want to ask here is, before that point, why were you specifically pointing to the non-D3f targets in the alliance chat? I thought it was because you wanted to side with him at some point, but your posts have made it pretty clear that you were never intending to stick with him.
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:15 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 185, CaptainMeme wrote:
In post 182, Skelda wrote: Aronis--10th Place (Our alliance turns on its own for the first time, mostly prompted by Meme who is worried about Aronis' connections to other people outside of alliance, and Aronis tries to eliminate Shadow I believe. Also during this round I approach Meme about the plan to go to the end together)

Not that it makes much of a difference, but it was me who approached you about going to the end together in that round - specifically because you'd been trying to shift the target off'ff D3f in the alliance chat, and I was trying to get to a position with D3f where I could make a move with him against our alliance if necessary, so I thought we could work together on that.

Something I do want to ask here is, before that point, why were you specifically pointing to the non-D3f targets in the alliance chat? I thought it was because you wanted to side with him at some point, but your posts have made it pretty clear that you were never intending to stick with him.
I misspoke, I meant Empire. I approached Empire with a plan to go to the end together, you approached me. Sorry about that.

Um, I think reducing it down to me not wanting to work with D3f is wrong, my relationship with D3f was very very complicated. I wanted D3f around because I knew based on how he was talking to me that he didn't perceive me as part of the big alliance and that he wouldn't actually come for me if he dumped his votes on someone. For example, he would talk to me about how he was worried there was a big alliance behind our backs that we weren't included in and I knew that he wouldn't say that to me if he thought that I was a member. I also think D3f was one of the people outside of our alliance who I talked to the most, so I had a clear sense of where his head was at in general.

Later on D3f started lying to me and telling the truth to other people (particularly about the 18 Xof votes that he cast at one point and about a few other things), so that's when I became a lot less comfortable including him in moves that I was making, but I still do think that keeping him around longer than most of the other people who went home prejury was a good move for me because he did want the same things as me for the most part even if he didn't trust me enough to tell me about them most of the time. And I think most of the other people who we voted out during this time (particularly Vijarada, though I'm sure others as well) had closer relationships to Shadow and Xof than to me also and that was another good reason to eliminate them rather than D3f.
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 176, Skelda wrote:
In post 171, D3f3nd3r wrote:
In post 158, Empire wrote:Honestly, D3f, I've been debating whether to wait to respond but I can't anymore because Skelda's arguments to you about my thought process are based on inferences that have zero basis in reality and only goes to show how his perception of my game is warped by what I laid out for him. Like, I literally have a conversation log with Meme where we were discussing F3 candidates and I mentioned your name saying that even if you make a big move, it is unlikely you would have very many votes remaining and thus would have no future control over the game. I can't really speak to whether other people spoke to him about you so all I can tell you is what happened on my end.

The reason I didn't put myself in the position where I had to make the choice at the end was because I didn't have to. By that point, I was confident enough in my game and secure enough that Skelda was going to take me to the end no matter what that I prioritized securing the Meme boot because he was the biggest threat remaining. If I really felt like I was in any danger at all, you bet your ass I would have undercommitted on Meme and then set myself up to get rid of whoever I wanted at the end. But I didn't need to and that's the point.
There are enough clear lapses in his thought process from that post that it's clear he's missing a lot in how he thought about stuff those last couple rounds.
I really disagree with this, but obviously I would. It's not really a specific enough argument that I even know how to address it, I guess it's for the Jury to decide.
In post 149, Skelda wrote: So first of all, I find it kind of interesting that you are simultaneously saying that you want to vote for neither Empire nor myself and you are claiming that I made this massive mistake by taking him to the end.
I have to vote because that's how these games work (for those of you keeping score at home, I legitimately thought I voted at FTC in Mario Bros but I guess I didn't). My first comment is that I'm upset at both of you for how I was handled at the end of the game. My second was me trying to consider the fact that yes, I'm actually supposed to vote for somebody at the end of this game, and it was me trying to figure out who I would want to get rid of. Yes, I am convinced that I had very little of a case to win the game, and I told you how clueless I was throughout the game. I literally had no idea about any of the alliances that existed. If you picked me over Empire, Empire, or Shadow, or xof, or Meme, or Aronis, would have pointed that out and I'd be lucky to get more than one vote.
Okay I mean like look, if that's the case then I made the wrong decision but that isn't really an argument against my game since like I pointed out, by not taking Immunity for himself Empire implicitly made the same decision.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:So like, I don't really know what I should have done to get you to be happy with me other than not vote you out
You didn't have the decency to end our conversation Saturday morning. You didn't have the decency to talk to me at all in the full twenty-two and a half hours between that and when you actually posted your message, even to provide a simple apology. You tried in your post where you voted for me, but just rehashing the same points you told me in private just a day prior doesn't count as a success. Empire didn't have the decency to talk to me at all...he explained it, but it's not like that makes it forgivable in terms of it affecting my vote.
Okay well I'm sorry about that, I should have messaged you. Saturday was particularly busy for me and I thought that since I'd told you that I was voting you out that night before that I didn't need to just have the same conversation again since nothing had changed, but if that's what you wanted then and it would have made you feel better then I guess I should have.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:Empire made the same decision as me.
Nope. You decided to take Empire to the end. Empire decided to take you to the end. Some of the reasoning for getting rid of me is the same, but not all of it, because you two are clearly fighting for the same set of votes here and are making different arguments to discredit the other one's game because you two played different games. You're claiming that because Woo picked Tony to go to FTC with him in Cagayan in order for him to make the honorable decision, inherently if Tony wanted to pick Woo it would have had to be for the exact same reason, which is hilarious to think about when Tony was so, so far from honorable as a Survivor player.
No that's not what I'm claiming. I'm not saying that Empire and I played the same game, but I am claiming that you can't chastise me for taking him to the end without also chastising him since presumably it would be an easy win for both of us either way if the way you see it is how it actually was. What I'm claiming is that we both thought our best chance at winning was going with each other and that was the ultimate reason why you were eliminated, which I still believe to be the case. You need to find other ways to differentiate us and I believe that my game was better because I came up with the plan that ultimately got us to this position in the first place, if I never approach Empire to go to the end with one of Mallow/Menno/Shrek, I don't believe that it happens and we wouldn't have been able to pull this off. I think that's the crucial differentiating factor and why I deserve to win.
Completely separate note. Say Empire and Meme aren't able to convince me to keep paying attention to the game, so I use the remainder of my votes on Shadoweh without telling anyone (as I was initially going to do) and she goes at F11. What happens from there, just out of curiosity? Does that actually change things?
I think I'd probably be fine? You wouldn't have enough votes to really do anything at that point, so I think we would probably have just kept Aronis around for a few more rounds than we did. I mean it's really impossible to say, but I think because of how I was positioned in my alliance I wasn't going to be in direct danger from people taking snipes and I could have made it to the end even if you did that
I think you misinterpreted...uh...basically everything I said in that post? My first line was an introduction of sorts to the several comments I made following that in the post. My second wasn't meant to be an argument against your game, it's a comment on the thoughts you expressed in what I quoted. What's interesting about it? I'm trying to figure out how my two opinions are mutually exclusive. I didn't need to rehash the same conversation we had before, a simple "once again, I'm sorry it came to this" would have been much more than sufficient and I'm honestly insulted by the fact that you think I wanted to have that same conversation again and by how you worded that part of your post. You seem to be ignoring what I said at the end about the fact that you two had very different reasons why you thought getting rid of me was the play surrounding from the fact that you two have different ideas as to how the other played. If Empire agreed with you that you were the one that pushed him in the direction of the endgame you two ultimately got to, then I'm sure that's something that he would need to address, and he has by claiming that your view of that whole sequence is false. I'm trying to differentiate the two of you and that's a place to start.

While we're looking at the last post you just made, I didn't tell you because I believed (correctly, it seemed!) that you were firmly in Shadow's and xof's corner. By the time they were gone I was so far down the rabbit hole that I wasn't going to correct myself for a lie I'd made six rounds prior.
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:55 pm

Post by Shrek »

It was Aronis.
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:03 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 187, D3f3nd3r wrote:
In post 176, Skelda wrote:
In post 171, D3f3nd3r wrote:
In post 158, Empire wrote:Honestly, D3f, I've been debating whether to wait to respond but I can't anymore because Skelda's arguments to you about my thought process are based on inferences that have zero basis in reality and only goes to show how his perception of my game is warped by what I laid out for him. Like, I literally have a conversation log with Meme where we were discussing F3 candidates and I mentioned your name saying that even if you make a big move, it is unlikely you would have very many votes remaining and thus would have no future control over the game. I can't really speak to whether other people spoke to him about you so all I can tell you is what happened on my end.

The reason I didn't put myself in the position where I had to make the choice at the end was because I didn't have to. By that point, I was confident enough in my game and secure enough that Skelda was going to take me to the end no matter what that I prioritized securing the Meme boot because he was the biggest threat remaining. If I really felt like I was in any danger at all, you bet your ass I would have undercommitted on Meme and then set myself up to get rid of whoever I wanted at the end. But I didn't need to and that's the point.
There are enough clear lapses in his thought process from that post that it's clear he's missing a lot in how he thought about stuff those last couple rounds.
I really disagree with this, but obviously I would. It's not really a specific enough argument that I even know how to address it, I guess it's for the Jury to decide.
In post 149, Skelda wrote: So first of all, I find it kind of interesting that you are simultaneously saying that you want to vote for neither Empire nor myself and you are claiming that I made this massive mistake by taking him to the end.
I have to vote because that's how these games work (for those of you keeping score at home, I legitimately thought I voted at FTC in Mario Bros but I guess I didn't). My first comment is that I'm upset at both of you for how I was handled at the end of the game. My second was me trying to consider the fact that yes, I'm actually supposed to vote for somebody at the end of this game, and it was me trying to figure out who I would want to get rid of. Yes, I am convinced that I had very little of a case to win the game, and I told you how clueless I was throughout the game. I literally had no idea about any of the alliances that existed. If you picked me over Empire, Empire, or Shadow, or xof, or Meme, or Aronis, would have pointed that out and I'd be lucky to get more than one vote.
Okay I mean like look, if that's the case then I made the wrong decision but that isn't really an argument against my game since like I pointed out, by not taking Immunity for himself Empire implicitly made the same decision.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:So like, I don't really know what I should have done to get you to be happy with me other than not vote you out
You didn't have the decency to end our conversation Saturday morning. You didn't have the decency to talk to me at all in the full twenty-two and a half hours between that and when you actually posted your message, even to provide a simple apology. You tried in your post where you voted for me, but just rehashing the same points you told me in private just a day prior doesn't count as a success. Empire didn't have the decency to talk to me at all...he explained it, but it's not like that makes it forgivable in terms of it affecting my vote.
Okay well I'm sorry about that, I should have messaged you. Saturday was particularly busy for me and I thought that since I'd told you that I was voting you out that night before that I didn't need to just have the same conversation again since nothing had changed, but if that's what you wanted then and it would have made you feel better then I guess I should have.
In post 149, Skelda wrote:Empire made the same decision as me.
Nope. You decided to take Empire to the end. Empire decided to take you to the end. Some of the reasoning for getting rid of me is the same, but not all of it, because you two are clearly fighting for the same set of votes here and are making different arguments to discredit the other one's game because you two played different games. You're claiming that because Woo picked Tony to go to FTC with him in Cagayan in order for him to make the honorable decision, inherently if Tony wanted to pick Woo it would have had to be for the exact same reason, which is hilarious to think about when Tony was so, so far from honorable as a Survivor player.
No that's not what I'm claiming. I'm not saying that Empire and I played the same game, but I am claiming that you can't chastise me for taking him to the end without also chastising him since presumably it would be an easy win for both of us either way if the way you see it is how it actually was. What I'm claiming is that we both thought our best chance at winning was going with each other and that was the ultimate reason why you were eliminated, which I still believe to be the case. You need to find other ways to differentiate us and I believe that my game was better because I came up with the plan that ultimately got us to this position in the first place, if I never approach Empire to go to the end with one of Mallow/Menno/Shrek, I don't believe that it happens and we wouldn't have been able to pull this off. I think that's the crucial differentiating factor and why I deserve to win.
Completely separate note. Say Empire and Meme aren't able to convince me to keep paying attention to the game, so I use the remainder of my votes on Shadoweh without telling anyone (as I was initially going to do) and she goes at F11. What happens from there, just out of curiosity? Does that actually change things?
I think I'd probably be fine? You wouldn't have enough votes to really do anything at that point, so I think we would probably have just kept Aronis around for a few more rounds than we did. I mean it's really impossible to say, but I think because of how I was positioned in my alliance I wasn't going to be in direct danger from people taking snipes and I could have made it to the end even if you did that
I think you misinterpreted...uh...basically everything I said in that post? My first line was an introduction of sorts to the several comments I made following that in the post. My second wasn't meant to be an argument against your game, it's a comment on the thoughts you expressed in what I quoted. What's interesting about it? I'm trying to figure out how my two opinions are mutually exclusive. I didn't need to rehash the same conversation we had before, a simple "once again, I'm sorry it came to this" would have been much more than sufficient and I'm honestly insulted by the fact that you think I wanted to have that same conversation again and by how you worded that part of your post. You seem to be ignoring what I said at the end about the fact that you two had very different reasons why you thought getting rid of me was the play surrounding from the fact that you two have different ideas as to how the other played. If Empire agreed with you that you were the one that pushed him in the direction of the endgame you two ultimately got to, then I'm sure that's something that he would need to address, and he has by claiming that your view of that whole sequence is false. I'm trying to differentiate the two of you and that's a place to start.

While we're looking at the last post you just made, I didn't tell you because I believed (correctly, it seemed!) that you were firmly in Shadow's and xof's corner. By the time they were gone I was so far down the rabbit hole that I wasn't going to correct myself for a lie I'd made six rounds prior.
So first of all I'm sorry if I offended you by the way I worded that part of the post and if I caused you any undue unhappiness by not checking in with you on Saturday then that's on me and I have to own that. I promise you that it isn't my intention to insult you or belittle the way you felt upon being eliminated or something. All I was trying to say was that I thought the conversation of the previous night was sufficient and that you understood from that that I was most likely voting you out and why and that I felt bad about it, but thought it was necessary. I probably should have approached your elimination differently and if that cost me your vote, so be it.

I wasn't saying your two opinions were mutually exclusive, but I was saying that you having that opinion illustrates a problem that I thought Empire and I could potentially have with many Jurors. I think maybe my original post wasn't clear here which is part of the problem that we're having.

I don't think we did have drastically different reasons for wanting you eliminated, I think that's where we disagree. We both thought that we could beat each other in the end, that's straight up the situation. I still think that I played a better game than Empire and that this thing about him pretending to be second in command is false and revisionist history (and even if it isn't, I was still the one who came up with the plan and who did the work to execute it and he hasn't really contested that, so in that case how is being second in command any different from pretending to be second in command really?). I think his view (if it was his actual view during the game and not something that he's just saying now) is false too, but just asserting that doesn't change any opinions. It's up for the Jurors to decide whose explanation of events makes more sense. But basically I think your elimination was something we both wanted to happen and would have done and that it doesn't meaningfully differentiate us and you seem to think that it does.

I think Empire is playing up/exaggerating how bad of a move he thought eliminating you was now after the fact because he knows that you think it was a bad move and he wants to get your vote and make me look bad, and I was pointing to his actions in the game of not going to the end with you himself as evidence for that since if he truly thought that there was no way you would win, he wouldn't have let me get Immunity since he'd want to go to the end with you.

And yes I get why you thought that, you were wrong because I knew full well that you were lying and I was plotting with Empire to eliminate Shadow/Xof myself at that point, but based on what I'd shown you I can see why you'd think I was with Xof and Shadow and not want to confide in me that you'd voted for Xof. I even understood that in the game which was why I didn't come after you even though I knew you were lying. But at the same time that sort of thing does sow distrust and that's just the way it is.
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:40 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Basically we're at the point now where we need to figure out which of you two is telling the truth about what happened regarding who was actually in control post-Jury point between you two, because both of you disagree with what the other has been saying. Some sort of quote evidence from either of you would probably help the jurors figure out which of you it was because I feel that at least some of the Jury is trying to base their votes on.
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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:57 pm

Post by Skelda »

You want evidence of what I'm claiming D3f?

[2:35 PM] Insanoflex: menno and shrek surviving in this game is gonna crowd us out of the finals
[2:36 PM] skelda: I don't think we'd be the ones crowded out though?
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: yeah but like
[2:36 PM] skelda: But I agree that at least one of them has to die
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: if i'm literally anyone else in this game
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: i want to go to the end with those two
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: right?
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: it would cement a victory
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: which means less spots for us
[2:36 PM] skelda: No I agree
[2:36 PM] Insanoflex: it would come down to whoever has the most votes
[2:37 PM] skelda: I guess my point is I think we need to think about maximizing our own odds of winning
[2:37 PM] Insanoflex: i agree with that
[2:37 PM] skelda: And like do we win against Meme, Xof, and Shadow?
[2:37 PM] Insanoflex: tbh i do think we might have a shot against shadoweh
[2:37 PM] skelda: Like can the two of us beat any of those people?
[2:37 PM] skelda: I agree with that
[2:38 PM] skelda: Like you, me, Shadow is definitely the best case if it's three members of our alliance in the end
[2:38 PM] Insanoflex: but i do think like
[2:38 PM] Insanoflex: you and i need to be there at the end
[2:38 PM] skelda: No we do
[2:38 PM] Insanoflex: given that both of us have not talked to half the jury
[2:39 PM] skelda: Yes exactly. And I wouldn't be opposed to having one of the people we haven't talked to next to us tbh
[2:39 PM] Insanoflex: i have thought a lot about what people like menno or shrek would vote based on
[2:39 PM] skelda: Not to be like awful, but it would guarantee one of us a win
[2:39 PM] Insanoflex: yeah i get you
[2:40 PM] skelda: So we just need to think hard. We could go with Shadow and I think we have a case
[2:40 PM] skelda: Or we could cut Shadow and go with some random person

So this was the first time that I brought up the idea of cutting our alliance and going with someone not in our alliance to Empire and to be honest, I think the conversation speaks for itself. He brings up the idea that he thinks that he thinks we could beat Shadoweh in the end and that his priority is eliminating the people who we aren't talking to so that they don't crowd us out of the end, but I slowly ease him into the plan and get him on board with cutting Shadoweh. I think this is the moment where I show why I deserve to win the game and from the way this conversation went down it's pretty clear who was responsible for this happening.
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Post by Empire »

I will respond more fully since I'm currently drafting a summary for Vij but while we're posting conversation logs, allow me (this was just before the xof vote):


Insanoflex - 06/06/2018
so it's confirmed F3
so we need to think about who the third will be
d3f is a good candidate but
if he makes a big move
he'll have something to put on his resume
CaptainMeme - 06/06/2018
Him surviving against an alliance that includes almost everyone except him atm will possibly mean he wins
Insanoflex - 06/06/2018
eh, not if he gets dragged to the end
he has very few votes so
everyone will know he's a goat
CaptainMeme - 06/06/2018
yeah, but Shadow/Xof/Skelda would all be pretty angry
Insanoflex - 06/06/2018
skelda wouldn't be such a big choice to take to the end imo
he's not done much and he hasn't talked to like half the jury
*bad choice

A short one but I think it speaks for itself. Skelda is just plain wrong about my game and again, is just believing the image I put up for him rather than the reality.
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:18 pm

Post by Empire »

skelda - 06/06/2018
All of D3f, Mallow, Menno, and Shrek surviving makes me worried tbh
Insanoflex - 06/06/2018
that is my biggest reservation
but like
if meme is offering us an F3, maybe that's legit?
idk
meme had no reason to think you and i already made a deal
skelda - 06/06/2018
But do you want to go to F3 with Meme?
Insanoflex - 06/06/2018
you know, originally i would have said no but
if d3f pulls off this move
and like i think you mentioned
d3f might have an underdog-ish story behind him
so idk

This is what I told Skelda on literally the same day. So yeah, now you know.
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:31 pm

Post by Skelda »

Here is a quote from a conversation that I believe is the first time the idea of D3f as a threat is mentioned in our chat.

[2:46 PM] skelda: I don't want D3f in the F3 though, I see him as a potential underdog
[2:47 PM] Insanoflex: eh idk, he's been in the dark most of the game and he doesn't have many votes
[2:47 PM] Insanoflex: so it's not like he's gonna be a player in the future
[2:47 PM] skelda: Oh I agree

How is this you convincing me that D3f is a big threat? You said basically the same thing to me as you did to Meme. Now I don't know what you truly believe, I can't read your mind. And honestly if you truly believed that you could beat D3f in the end, that still doesn't explain why you didn't go to the end with him yourself. But I really don't think you influenced me. The only time I see you trying to play up D3f's threat level is here which I think looks worse for you.

[5:15 PM] skelda: But do you want to go to F3 with Meme?
[5:15 PM] Insanoflex: you know, originally i would have said no but
[5:16 PM] Insanoflex: if d3f pulls off this move
[5:16 PM] Insanoflex: and like i think you mentioned
[5:16 PM] Insanoflex: d3f might have an underdog-ish story behind him
[5:16 PM] Insanoflex: so idk

So basically your supposed argument here was cut D3f and go to the end with Meme which I was 100% never doing and whether you believed it or not, it was a bad argument.

So basically the point is, I already thought that, I didn't need convincing, if anything you needed convincing and I believe you were convinced or you would have taken Immunity at F4 and cut me.

P-edit- Empire's quote literally mentions me already having mentioned that because I had. He was referencing something he already knew I thought. And we were going to quote part of the same thing so that's funny how different the way we're looking at these are.
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:36 pm

Post by Skelda »

I also think it's kind of irrelevant what we thought about D3f and why tbh, like I think my first quote shows the actual reason that we were able to have success in this game and that conversation makes it pretty clear that it was my doing. If we care about who is responsible for getting us to this point, it was my plan that did it and that should be enough to get me the win.

But I will continue to argue on the D3f point obviously because it's basically the biggest argument that Empire seems to have at this point
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Post by Empire »

No, I brought up that second chat in order to prove to d3f that I was telling you what I wanted you to hear in order to benefit my own game (to ensure you would always see d3f as a bigger threat than me and thus be less likely to cut me at the end). Up to the jury to decide in the end, but as you can see, from the chat log I had with Meme on literally the exact same day as the second chat, I was telling him something completely different (the actual truth).
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:51 pm

Post by Skelda »

To be honest with you, I don't care whether you changed your mind in the middle of that day, whether you were lying to Meme for some reason, or whether you were consciously lying to me to play up D3f's threat level. The point is, my opinion was always that D3f wasn't someone who I wanted to go to the end with from before we even talked about it and nothing you said or did changed that, but in fact you tried to convince me the opposite at one point. So you doing this had absolutely zero effect on anything.

And even if it did have some effect, it doesn't matter because that would only make a difference if you actually played a better game than me apart from that, which you didn't do. If your purpose was to convince me that you were threatened by D3f so that you could sneakily go to the end with D3f, then maybe that's an actually interesting move, but you didn't do that, you allowed me to get to the end when I forged the plan that allowed us to be so successful in this game.
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Post by Shrek »

never mind, i'm an idiot
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:08 pm

Post by Empire »

I'm not going to fill this thread with bickering now because the fact of the matter is that it is entirely up to the jury decide but the bottom line is that you have no idea what I said to the others in this game. I'm confident that they know I was making the moves I felt was best for my own game and that it wasn't just you who did everything.

I was the one who went ahead and nudged the majority alliance together - the one that got all of us this far in the first place. I was the one who suggested the IPS vote, which was what allowed us to take advantage of the rift between the non-alliance people and dispatch the biggest threat to us. I was the one who positioned myself in such a way so that I got multiple F3 offers from people after the merge hit. In fact, as the convo log with Meme shows, it was me who integrated you into that particular F3 with him and I.

This is true for LSGs in general but especially true in this one (ex: the Vash vote) - all it takes it for one person to run up against you and you're outta here. So I always took great care to position myself in such a way that there was always someone higher up on the food chain than me. That way I was never in any danger and I was always able to advance my own agenda behind the scenes. So the idea that you were the one who were responsible for my being here just absolutely not true and I'm hoping that the jury will see it too.
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