Allocate/Execute III--LIVE REVEAL--WINNER REVEALED!


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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:48 pm

Post by Skelda »

Okay Empire I think we've both laid out what we bring to the table in terms of a Jury vote and you're right, we aren't going to get anywhere just arguing back and forth.

Of course I didn't do everything, you definitely did make contributions, but I do think that my plan was the reason that we got here with Mallow who we have a chance at beating rather than with Meme or Shadow who probably would have beaten us and that's the point I was making. I don't really remember the details of how the majority alliance formed or how the IPS vote went down, but I don't think you can claim sole responsibility for either of them, I definitely feel like I did my fair share of nudging at least for the original formation of the alliance and my memory is the IPS vote being Shadow, but I really don't know because like you said I don't see every conversation you have and neither does the Jury. The thing about you getting me into a F3 with Meme is definitely a contributing factor to why that F3 existed, but I think Meme himself said that he wanted it because I was protecting D3f in the alliance chat and from Meme's perspective going with the two of us just made sense because he would have beaten us, so of course he was going to offer us a F3.

I agree with you that you made sure there was someone higher on the food chain than you and I did the same thing. I think the crucial difference is that I planned to take those people higher on the food chain than me out while you planned on going to the end with them until I convinced you otherwise.

I know I said I wouldn't keep going back and forth, I'm sorry I can't help it lol. I really want to set the record straight and make sure the Jury understands the differences between our games. The truth is that we both brought things to the table in terms of abilities and it's up to the Jury to decide what things they value. We've both played well, but I honestly believe that I've played better.
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:58 pm

Post by Empire »

Ugh ok I know I said one last one:

I said what I said about Shadoweh, again, precisely to position myself in the alliance as making you believe that you were the one calling the shots. Like, of course I knew going to the end with Shadoweh was a horrible idea. No shit. But I said that so you could be like, "no, Empire *pat pat* of course we can't take Shadoweh to the end" and think to yourself "wow, I can beat this guy and take the credit for everything." But while I was telling you all of this, I went around making the deals that needed to be made to further my long term position in the game.

Dude, we barely talked before the merge and had no history of working together previously. Did you really think I was just gonna blindly trust you to agree to our finals deal? Of course not. The only way I could ensure that is to give you the impression that you could beat me while simultaneously working behind the scenes. And that's exactly what I did.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:01 pm

Post by Empire »

Obviously I'm exaggerating and being sassy but that was my intention.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

Oiy since it's a point of contention I checked my logs, I wanted to vote out Flumi immediately but Empire wouldn't do it, insisting we couldn't cut Aronis and you skelda out of that vote, and suggested IPS instead.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:33 pm

Post by Empire »

So for Vij, here's the summary of events, at least from my point of view. I'll try to condense it as much as possible but I hope that if I miss anything, my opening speech will fill in the gaps:

Pre-merge, I nudged together a big majority alliance that included myself, Shadoweh, xof, Skelda, Aronis, Meme, and Vash. Pretty much everyone in the game agreed to drop more votes on STD than his total because people didn't like his RNG vote dump thing. After that, things were quiet for a bit and it was just a series a votes where we voted out people no one talked to. The one exception was the Vash vote since that was the result of Shrek dumping all his votes to save himself.

The first major event was the IPS vote. We found out from you that Fluminator had been low key dropping some votes each round on Shadoweh looking to make a move on her later on down the road and that you were looking to defect because you didn't trust him. We had been suspecting Fluminator was the big threat among our group for a while so we figured that gave us the opportunity to counter-attack. Fluminator himself was a tough sell at the time so I suggested to Shadoweh and xof that we get rid of IPS since we knew he was connected to Flum and we could diminish his influence in the game and open up the opportunity to get him later. It worked and we voted them both out back to back.

Right when the jury hit, we voted you out because you hadn't really talked much with people in our alliance. Afterwards we all figured that Aronis was a major jury threat and we got hints that he was planning to make a move on us so we targeted him next. For the xof vote, d3f came to me and Meme with a plan to drop 5 votes each on xof to blindside her out of the game. Even though we all agreed she was the biggest threat in the game, I decided not to commit to the plan because I didn't want to compromise my alliance with Shadoweh. The xof vote goes through anyway because Meme decides to drop extra votes to cover the ones I hadn't put in.

I then went for the zero votes people back to back in order to ensure that I wasn't crowded out at the end of the game. Shadoweh and Meme get voted out back to back since they were easily the biggest threats remaining in the game. Finally, Skelda decides to take me to the end and vote out D3f for reasons we've been arguing about now.

Hope this helps and I'll be happy to answer any questions about what happened.
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Post by Empire »

In post 203, Shadoweh wrote:Oiy since it's a point of contention I checked my logs, I wanted to vote out Flumi immediately but Empire wouldn't do it, insisting we couldn't cut Aronis and you skelda out of that vote, and suggested IPS instead.
Yeah, this is accurate. I argued that we couldn't leave the two of you on the outs because of the possibility you would turn on me/Shadoweh/xof so I suggested the IPS vote because it was an easier sell.
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Post by Empire »

(or at least that's what I remember saying, I would have to check the logs to make sure)
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:28 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

We’re just trying to get a general sense of which one of you was calling the shots through the game. And I legitimately still don’t know, neither of you have convinced me yet. It’s not just about the vote on me, or the vote that I apparently orchestrated on xof, it’s all of the stuff that happened this game.

I’m not sure this is something I’m quite supposed to be doing in an FTC, but to the jurors in that alliance which of them appeared to be more in control?
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:31 am

Post by Aronis »

In post 182, Skelda wrote:Vijarada's summary, according to Skelda.
VashtaNeurotic--15th Place (My alliance decides that the vote should be Shrek, which I begrudgingly accept despite the fact that I really like Shrek because it's too early for me to be rocking the boat. However, Shrek winds up choosing to dump his votes and takes out Vash which makes me really happy because I know that Vash would have wanted to eliminate me at some point and I was fully prepared to have to deal with him when the time came, but Shrek took care of him for me)
I just want to point out that I heard zero of this shrek sympathy coming from anyone in that alliance except for me. This is just a bunch of pandering to try to make you feel good.
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:46 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

He did make a point to me before Vash actually went about expecting Vash to gun for him at some point.
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:00 am

Post by mallowgeno »

I fail to see how I'm here because of you Skelda. I could have easily bombed you instead of McMenno and you wouldn't even be here, sitting all high and mighty like you currently are
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:06 am

Post by Shrek »

I believe Aronis on this one. He let me save myself in the first place.
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:39 am

Post by McMenno »

anyway I'm glad the
prejury
is here clarifying things as well from the peanut gallery
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:01 am

Post by Skelda »

In post 208, Aronis wrote:
In post 182, Skelda wrote:Vijarada's summary, according to Skelda.
VashtaNeurotic--15th Place (My alliance decides that the vote should be Shrek, which I begrudgingly accept despite the fact that I really like Shrek because it's too early for me to be rocking the boat. However, Shrek winds up choosing to dump his votes and takes out Vash which makes me really happy because I know that Vash would have wanted to eliminate me at some point and I was fully prepared to have to deal with him when the time came, but Shrek took care of him for me)
I just want to point out that I heard zero of this shrek sympathy coming from anyone in that alliance except for me. This is just a bunch of pandering to try to make you feel good.
I just checked the alliance chat and when the Shrek vote was suggested I said that I preferred Vijarada because Shrek was actually talking to me, but by the time I arrived in our chat the Shrek vote was basically already decided. I can get the exact quote if you want, I'm on my phone rn
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:50 am

Post by Skelda »

In post 201, Empire wrote:Ugh ok I know I said one last one:

I said what I said about Shadoweh, again, precisely to position myself in the alliance as making you believe that you were the one calling the shots. Like, of course I knew going to the end with Shadoweh was a horrible idea. No shit. But I said that so you could be like, "no, Empire *pat pat* of course we can't take Shadoweh to the end" and think to yourself "wow, I can beat this guy and take the credit for everything." But while I was telling you all of this, I went around making the deals that needed to be made to further my long term position in the game.

Dude, we barely talked before the merge and had no history of working together previously. Did you really think I was just gonna blindly trust you to agree to our finals deal? Of course not. The only way I could ensure that is to give you the impression that you could beat me while simultaneously working behind the scenes. And that's exactly what I did.
I mean it's easy for you to say now that any wrong thing you said to me in our alliance chat was just you making me think that I could beat you, but I really really don't think that was the case here. This was literally the first time I suggested that we have an alliance where I also suggested that we go to the end with one of Mallow/Shrek/Menno, and your first reaction wasn't to say that that was a good idea, but to say that we had a chance against Shadow. And even if you were faking it, that doesn't change the fact that I was the one who initiated that plan and if I hadn't you might not be sitting here right now and if you were you would likely be up against someone like Meme or Shadow who you didn't have great odds of beating. And you say that it was obvious that we couldn't go to the end with Shadow, but like this conversation happened at F10, I don't think you yet realized that. Maybe I'm wrong and you were always planning on not going to the end with Shadow or Meme, but if so you didn't take any initiative to reach out to me to make sure that you had the votes to get them when the time came to do it, for all you knew I could have truly been loyal to Shadow or Meme. I took a risk by approaching you about cutting them that you were unwilling to take, because like you say we weren't the closest allies before that point.

Like if your strategy was to let me take the reigns in our alliance chat so that I would take you to the end which seems to be the most charitable version of your argument (it's also possible that that wasn't your intentional strategy and you're just claiming that it was now), I still was the one that took the reigns in the alliance chat and made the decisions that actually mattered. So whether you were faking being willing to go to the end with people like Shadow and Meme or not, by saying the things you did you gave yourself less control in our alliance chat and because our alliance chat is where the plan that produced this final three was hatched, you had less to do with getting us to this point than me.

I referenced this conversation in my opening speech, I'm sure there are others like it but it stands out to me. This was on June 10th, so we'd already agreed that Meme and Shadow needed to die.

[8:02 PM] Insanoflex: i guess we are aiming for shadoweh at 4th place? idk i think meme would be better at 4th place
[8:02 PM] Insanoflex: and shadoweh goes 5th
[8:02 PM] Insanoflex: orr w/e
[8:02 PM] skelda: No I want to do Shadow next
[8:02 PM] Insanoflex: oh even better
[8:02 PM] skelda: Shadow, then D3f, then Meme
[8:02 PM] Insanoflex: d3f and meme don't have shit for votes
[8:03 PM] skelda: Yeah the D3f and Meme order is irrelevant, they both are endgame threats with no votes

So is Empire intentionally playing dumb in this example? Maybe he is, that's probably what he's going to claim anyway. But like, I'm the one making the decision about when Shadow should die so it doesn't really matter what his inner thoughts were. Like what would he have done if I agreed with his plan for a 4th or 5th place Shadow? Because of the votes she had, Shadow could not be 4th or 5th place, she could have easily made it to the end and ruined everything.

The whole idea of intentionally suggesting plans you don't agree with to your allies to make them underestimate you is just such a dodgy strategy if it actually was his strategy
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:59 am

Post by Skelda »

In post 205, Empire wrote:
In post 203, Shadoweh wrote:Oiy since it's a point of contention I checked my logs, I wanted to vote out Flumi immediately but Empire wouldn't do it, insisting we couldn't cut Aronis and you skelda out of that vote, and suggested IPS instead.
Yeah, this is accurate. I argued that we couldn't leave the two of you on the outs because of the possibility you would turn on me/Shadoweh/xof so I suggested the IPS vote because it was an easier sell.
Ok? I mean I don't think the IPS vote was as big a deal as you're claiming, though it definitely was a good idea not to randomly leave Aronis and I out of a vote so I think that was a smart decision on your part. I'm almost positive if Flum had been suggested to me I would have gone along with it seeing as I went along with the Flum vote the following round, but I guess you're responsible for flipping the vote from Flum to IPS there.

I don't really think the IPS vote is the reason that we're here though like I've said, the worst IPS could have done would have been take out a member of our alliance and it wouldn't have been me or you so it wouldn't have changed much of anything. I just don't think that IPS is the crucial round here, I think the crucial round is the Aronis round where I approach you about cutting Meme, Shadow, and Xof, I guess the Jury can decide which round they think had a bigger impact on the direction of the game.
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:05 am

Post by Skelda »

In post 210, mallowgeno wrote:I fail to see how I'm here because of you Skelda. I could have easily bombed you instead of McMenno and you wouldn't even be here, sitting all high and mighty like you currently are
That's true, but I did talk to you occasionally unlike most people in the game to try to prevent you from doing that. You could have done that to anyone at any time, that's an element of this game that we had to navigate.

My alliance wanted to vote you off at F5 where I made a move on Meme, if I hadn't saved you there you wouldn't be here today. I don't even know if you knew that you were in danger. And I'd suggested that we go to the end with someone who hadn't done much to Empire many many rounds earlier without you having any idea, so I was trying to time it right so that there was someone like that still alive when we needed them alive.

I suppose you specifically aren't the one who made it because of me, that's accurate. I was just as happy with your seat being filled with Menno and if you hadn't vote-dumped that's what would have happened. But I did come up with the plan that enabled there to be a seat in the end for a player like you, and you were the last one alive who took it.
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:06 am

Post by Empire »

God, I really just wanna end this back and forth because it's not doing anything and we're just going around in circles but another point: the IPS vote is just another example of how you're absolutely clueless as to what I told people behind the scenes and what I actually said to them and the way I presented myself to them vs you.
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:47 am

Post by CaptainMeme »

In post 207, D3f3nd3r wrote:I’m not sure this is something I’m quite supposed to be doing in an FTC, but to the jurors in that alliance which of them appeared to be more in control?
Honestly, very difficult to tell. I don't think either of them had a huge amount of influence on where the alliance votes were going as a whole - most of the time, one person would bring up a name, and then everyone would just say yes and we would go with it (and afair, those names didn't tend to come from Skelda or Empire). The only times I recall it being more complicated than that were the Flum vote (which we did behind Aronis' back, so I had to create a new thread for) and the Aronis vote (which actually wasn't too different, the separate thread was already there and it came down to Shadoweh suggesting that that round would be a good time to act), neither of which Skelda or Empire were particularly key in getting going. They both seemed to take very backbenchy positions in the alliance thread itself.

I have no idea who was calling the shots in their duo, but I can say that as far as getting into a position where they could eliminate me easily was concerned, Empire was the person who made that happen. I was never 100% convinced that Skelda was on our side, but Empire completely sold me on the idea that he was kinda lost and not talking to enough people and that I was his #1 ally as a result. I trusted him enough to use 5 of my own votes on the Xof round (that definitely weren't needed to ensure the elimination) just to make sure he wasn't put in a difficult position, because he had me completely convinced that he'd take me to the end if he was in a position to do so. When he said in his opening speech "I took a lot of care in the way I presented myself", he's not kidding, and from my point of view that was the single biggest factor in the final 3 being him, Skelda, and Mallow.

Regardless of who called the shots, as far as I was concerned it was Empire's play that made those shots work.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:50 am

Post by CaptainMeme »

In post 218, CaptainMeme wrote:I trusted him enough to use 5 of my own votes on the Xof round (that definitely weren't needed to ensure the elimination) just to make sure he wasn't put in a difficult position
I should say, I think he definitely made tactical errors too - especially here by not placing those 5 votes himself to make absolutely sure that alliance stayed in place - but the fact that he had gotten me to the point where I thought doing this was of utmost importance to my game was very impressive in and of itself.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:07 am

Post by Skelda »

I definitely think that's a fair argument Meme, although I would make the argument that I had a closer relationship with Shadow which kind of enabled that F3 to form which was just as useful, though of course like Empire keeps saying none of us know how players are presenting themselves to other people so maybe Empire and Shadow were just as tight as Empire and you behind my back, but I do think that my relationship with Shadoweh was as tight as your relationship with Empire

For me anyway the Meme F3 was nice to have because it kept Meme calm, but ultimately Meme had drastically decreased his number of votes already even before he spent those five votes to save Empire to the point where he didn't really have any power to do anything, so most of my energy went towards Shadoweh since she had more votes than us and actually could have made something happen if she caught on. That was my thought process anyway, I didn't see the point in building up a bunch of trust with you when I knew I was going to have to cut you and you were basically dependent on us due to being low on votes anyway. I guess you could argue that your relationship with Empire made you feel comfortable enough to spend tons of votes early, I don't know if that's the case, but I will say that if you had more votes I would have approached you very differently
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:12 am

Post by Skelda »

I also think that part of the reason that you and Empire were so tight was because you were Jigglypuff and DK whereas I didn't know either of you well before this game, kind of an irrelevant point but at least worth mentioning because you mentioned it to me at least once as a reason why you trusted Empire so much during the game
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:22 am

Post by CaptainMeme »

In post 220, Skelda wrote:ultimately Meme had drastically decreased his number of votes already even before he spent those five votes to save Empire to the point where he didn't really have any power to do anything
I'd disagree with this assessment - I only started expending large numbers of votes after that round. This was my voting history:

R1 - 6 on STD (45 remaining)
R2 - 1 on Cheery (44 remaining)
R3 - 1 on Shrek (43 remaining)
R4 - 1 on DN (42 remaining)
R5 - 3 on IPS, 1 on Vija (38 remaining)
R6 - 5 on Flum (33 remaining)
R7 - 1 on Vija (32 remaining)
R8 - 2 on Aronis, 2 on myself (28 remaining)
R9 - 10 on Xofelf (18 remaining)
R10 - 1 on Shrek, 2 on myself (15 remaining)
R11 - 1 on Mallow, 1 on D3f (13 remaining)
R12 - 13 on Shadow (0 remaining)
R13 - X_X

I was playing extremely conservatively with my votes prior to forming the alliance with Empire. I undercommitted on basically every premerge vote to the point where using 2 and 3 extra votes in R5 and R6 respectively still had me above the supposed alliance average. My only big vote dumps were on Xof and Shadow and both I only went anywhere near that high because I was thoroughly convinced that Empire's votes would essentially be my votes at the end.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am

Post by CaptainMeme »

In post 221, Skelda wrote:I also think that part of the reason that you and Empire were so tight was because you were Jigglypuff and DK whereas I didn't know either of you well before this game, kind of an irrelevant point but at least worth mentioning because you mentioned it to me at least once as a reason why you trusted Empire so much during the game
That is absolutely a factor too, there was a lot of trust there beforehand - but he played a character incredibly well in this game in front of me regardless. Bear in mind that Jigglypuff was probably the most dominant social player on Blue 1 and arguably on Blue 2 also (which I was fully aware of), and he managed to convince me that he was no social threat whatsoever in this one.
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:34 am

Post by Skelda »

I mean maybe it wasn't as extreme as I remembered, but you did play 6 on STD, 4 on IPS/Vija, 5 on Flum, and 4 on Aronis/yourself which was more than most of us were spending in most rounds by a lot, most of us only spent 1 or 2 most rounds in the beginning. You're right that that was a slight exaggeration on my part and I probably had assumed that you had committed what our alliance agreed upon which was usually a little higher than 1, but I also do think that with the number of votes you had left at that point (28 according to this, and had you not spent those extra 5 votes 23 the following round) vote-dumping for you without telling anyone else wasn't going to be super possible unless you planned on using all or most of your votes which would obviously put you in a massively vulnerable spot.
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