Jury Voting Philosophies

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:52 pm

So, Survivor: Ghost Island aside, it seems like MS historically has more divisive Tribal Councils than the show does. For example, having a zero vote finalist is relatively rare on MS, while it's almost a standard on Survivor.

If you agree with the above, why do you think that is? My initial thought is that there's more pressure on jurors on the show to be "right", and that, conversely, on MS, there's almost no true "accountability" for jury votes. What do you think?

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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:22 am

i think there is less stakes to who ends up ultimately winning. you're not crowning a new millionaire, you're not spending 39 days starving and having this massive transformative experience. People who are on survivor 99% of the time its the biggest, craziest, most memorable moment of their life. There is gravitas there.

Online there are outside factors like "meta", complete apathy to who wins and way more votes that come from a lack of stakes. It doesn't matter who wins, and that makes some people not take their vote very seriously.
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 am

I would say 2 things:

1) Lack of pressure to be right is pretty big. Closer votes were more common pre-Samoa. Votes have certainly felt less personal in the post-Samoa/HvV world.

2) Jury hiveminding is a lot more extreme in IRL Ponderosa than ours, for w/e reason. Combined with the urge to be "right," everyone has a sense of what games were played and can bias towards that very hard.

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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:56 am

Tbh I don't really make the jury so it's pretty hard for me to have a philosophy about it
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:41 pm

I agree with BRO. In actual Survivor, there's a hivemind effect on Ponderosa usually, though of course you can have split votes like we saw last season. I think on MS some people try to rebel against the dominant narrative more often whereas on the show they feed into it.

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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm

The lack of prize is a big part of it; on the show ultimately the jurors are answering "Who do you think deserves a million dollars?" whereas here we're answering "Who deserves to win the game?" And we have an incredibly wide range of attitudes here about what The Game actually is. Some jurors here are all about social play while others are more willing to reward strategically sound moves that backstabbed them.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:01 am

I think here on MS we have some people who will vote certain ways because they don't want a specific person to win, rather than just who they vote for to win. And I don't think that's nearly so common on the show? I don't really see show people using their jury votes to punish gameplay styles or people they don't like, like some people have on MS.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:17 am

Gabon would like a word!

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:18 am

But yes MS is much more into spite-voting than the actual show is. The last purely spite-driven winner was, like... Sophie?

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:25 am

My idea of how to vote is to open the voting thread and type up a name of one of the finalists
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:40 pm

In post 6, xofelf wrote:I think here on MS we have some people who will vote certain ways because they don't want a specific person to win, rather than just who they vote for to win. And I don't think that's nearly so common on the show? I don't really see show people using their jury votes to punish gameplay styles or people they don't like, like some people have on MS.

WEll, yeah. There are returnee seasons but most people in Survivor don't expect to play again, while some of us have played 20 times? :P
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:41 pm

you have only played 12 times though
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:23 pm

as someone who hasnt seen the show and has never gotten to the jury stage of a game of survivor i have absolutely no idea
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:54 pm

In post 8, BROseidon wrote:But yes MS is much more into spite-voting than the actual show is. The last purely spite-driven winner was, like... Sophie?

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:51 pm

Vote who you want tbh

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:34 pm

In post 14, Klick wrote:Vote who you want tbh


Pretty much agree with this. Everyone has different parameters to who they vote. And there is never a wrong way to vote.

Your right as a jury member is to vote the person you feel is most deserving to win, regardless of what anyone else thinks. No one else is you, with your perspective, and what you deem "Deserving" to win.

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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:51 am

I might argue for one exception to that, which is vote sincerely. If you know who youd like to see win, just vote for them, and don't pity vote or try to pick second place. It would be really shitty for someone with majority jury support to lose because you felt like being a snot.

Other than that, deciding who to put on the jury and playing a game that matches their assessment of what the jury wants is the players' job, and don't let anyone tell you different.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:28 pm

The only situation where I'm kind of okay with people strategically voting is when the person they want to vote for is obviously losing and they have a strong preference between the other two options. But even then I wouldn't do it personally, and if you go to the end with someone I want to vote for over you, then you don't deserve my vote. And often people get into their own heads and don't realize how much support their first choice has.

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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Honestly 3-man endgames are just bad because of that and I don't really get why they're so popular

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:36 pm

I basically agree with both of the above!

I think the reason F3s are popular is because it can result in "better" winners and the F3 tribal is very weird and kind of disincentivizes people from playing well
The solution might be voting reform for ftc
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:28 pm

I used to be a passionate F2 supporter, but now after seeing games play out in both, I see the argument for F3 and think both are good.
As Cephrir pointed out the final 3 vote encourages people to not play well or more under the radar. It's just the strongest player remaining getting voted out, usually making for a more lackluster FTC. Very rarely do previous alliances play a part in the F3 vote.

There's the argument that with a F3 FTC, the obvious threat vote gets pushed back to F4 which is kind of true, but there remains much more room to maneuver. And it's usually much more unlikely for a goat situation to pop up where there is one obvious winner. It also makes FTC much more interesting if you're arguing against two opponents and taking into account vote splits and such imo.
Basically, FTC are usually more interesting with a final 3, and it doesn't sacrifice anything super interesting gameplay wise.

The current actual survivor twist where there's now no vote at F4 is getting a little much, and it wasn't necessary to remove the F4 vote. The whole nitty gritty endgame is now essentially squashed - even ignoring the fact that the F5 is essentially "whoever doesn't have an idol is going home".
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I always thought the firemaking challenge should be done at F3 instead of F4. That way you still get the adrenaline of seeing the cast dwindle to two, but it's probably the more passionate players that make it through.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:08 pm

Either way I think this is why the perfect jury starting point is at F11 since that works for both an F2 and an F3.

Would it be problematic if the FIC wasn't specifically called out as being the FIC in an F3 setup?
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:26 pm

There was a thread on F2 vs F3 a couple of years back, it had some nice discussion
viewtopic.php?f=120&t=74911

For a long time I've favored F2s, largely because it's a more natural conclusion to the game - why stop voting a round before you can? It also creates a more proper balance between pre-FTC and post-FTC imo - everything that happens before FTC shouldn't only give you a 33% chance of winning (I know that's simplistic, but still).

I don't think F3s discourage playing 'well', though. They just require playing differently. I think F3 Survivor is a different game than F2 Survivor in a sense.

PEdit: I mean as long as you didn't outright mislead the players and just left it ambiguous I don't see why not. I also don't really see why though.

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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:49 pm

I still like the idea of a 20 player game with a final 19. Everyone has to pander to the one person who got voted out.

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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:01 pm

Whoever said that F3 survivor and F2 survivor are different games hit the nail on the head.

The win condition in F3 survivor is to be the strongest person in F3.
The win condition in F2 survivor is to not be the strongest person in F3.(Obviously assuming that you don't win immunity, because I never win any immunities so thats my personal model)

As a weaker player, I do prefer playing F2 ;)

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