Moderator Resources

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:56 am

Post by CreativeMod1 »

Okay so I've started creating a challenge list for challenges used in LSG, i'd love it if I could get some help and support in filling up this spreadsheet, I've made a start on it using the challenges from CotM 2018
There's 2 sheets on there:
1) a list of all challenges used per LSG, so you can see I've made the first column for CotM, very simply listed all the challenges used in that game and then linked them all to their rules
2) a complete list of every challenge, within this sheet we group together rules set of the same rules, the first rules column should be used for the best and clearest example of the rules with the end columns for other examples. There's that says whether a challenge is a solo challenge or a team one (I'm counting team challenges that are mainly played as if you are a solo as it being solo e.g. sushi go). Finally, there's a column for if you have some mod notes for behind the scenes based things.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'd really love some help on keeping this sheet updated and filling it up with loads of challenges...feel free to also add examples and rules sets from mish mash games

Also, I'm not great at like jazzing up spreadsheets, more of organising stuff, so if anyone wants to make it look fabulous then be my guest

(Side note, lol looking through CotM and I saw in the Diamant game Cuddly mentions that he should sort through and collect all the challenges together viewtopic.php?f=116&t=77997)

^The above is an edit on whats been created based on the below post v

Hey guys, so I'm currently getting started on modding my first survivor game and I had an idea for something that could be extremely beneficial for all mods (you may already have this and I've missed it)

A resource thread/spreadsheet (I do love my spreadsheets)

The main idea behind this is for challenges and rules

Having a big list of games that are used for challenges and the rulesets that go with them would be super helpful for many reasons

1) Having a standard for rules, some people are generally better than others at explaining rules and making them clear and understandable, it'd be very handy for those who aren't as good to have a place where they can copy the ruleset and use them in their game

2) Having a list of games can help for if a mod is stuck on trying to come up with ideas for some challenges, they can easily see the list

3) Saves a lot of time, having to write up like 20 challenges worth for a game of survivor is very time consuming and so having rules that can be copied would save a lot of time (obviously the moderator can still make edits to the rules for the sake of flavour and making personal to their game)

But yeah, what's everyone's opinions on this?

If people like the idea (and we don't already have this) I'm gonna start making a database with challenge rules and stuff, I would ask for some help on this, especially as people who have been around longer than I have would probably have some great examples of places they've seen really good and clear rules

Also, is there any other types of resources that people think would be handy to have as a moderator?
Last edited by CreativeMod1 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:55 am

Post by Awoo »

yeah - guides to forum creation I bet. The old one is outdated. How to set up roles/ etc.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:30 pm

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

In post 0, CreativeMod1 wrote:Hey guys, so I'm currently getting started on modding my first survivor game and I had an idea for something that could be extremely beneficial for all mods (you may already have this and I've missed it)

A resource thread/spreadsheet (I do love my spreadsheets)

The main idea behind this is for challenges and rules

Having a big list of games that are used for challenges and the rulesets that go with them would be super helpful for many reasons

1) Having a standard for rules, some people are generally better than others at explaining rules and making them clear and understandable, it'd be very handy for those who aren't as good to have a place where they can copy the ruleset and use them in their game

2) Having a list of games can help for if a mod is stuck on trying to come up with ideas for some challenges, they can easily see the list

3) Saves a lot of time, having to write up like 20 challenges worth for a game of survivor is very time consuming and so having rules that can be copied would save a lot of time (obviously the moderator can still make edits to the rules for the sake of flavour and making personal to their game)

But yeah, what's everyone's opinions on this?

If people like the idea (and we don't already have this) I'm gonna start making a database with challenge rules and stuff, I would ask for some help on this, especially as people who have been around longer than I have would probably have some great examples of places they've seen really good and clear rules

Also, is there any other types of resources that people think would be handy to have as a moderator?
Cool, so a few things.

1. Most people generally copy the rules from previous games and add/take away to make it clear what they want for their game. If you look at the last year of LSGs (all linked in this forum somewhere down the line) you'll probably notice that most of them are some variant of the SSB rules (and they probably go back to games before that). But having a "base set" of rules could probably be useful, though there would certainly be some things that'd need to be left vague.

2. Most games are linked in the Anonymous Characters Database in the "Links" tab (though it is currently missing legendary): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =130718772 .

3. To be honest a challenge database would be a good thing as while we have a link to the games, you then have to click through the challenge forum to find the different challenges and unless you have a mod who was around for those games, it's a serious pain.

4. I'm actually working on (in that I have an outline but haven't gotten to most of the writing/research) a general guide for the steps of modding games. Ofc it may be a while cause I'm kind of modding Equestria rn so if I want to include any examples from Equestria I'd probably need to wait until after it's over to release it.

5. A new forum creation guide would be great, though that may also be a post Equestria thing and I am definitely not the person to do that.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm

Post by pablito »

I have an opinion on one of these points, and I'm afraid it's because I have a high standard for MS games. So my opinion may sound like it comes from a purist and from my high horse, but I also feel like I've earned a high horse in this specific topic. I'd disagree on the need for a challenge database. One thing I like about this community is that challenges feel fresh and there's a lot of innovation in the challenges. Skypevivors and some long-standing facebook series often rehash the same series of challenges every single time. I know that there is a database for skypevivor challenges. This is helpful because those challenges should last 5 minutes and challenge design is a wayside element in skypevivors, and they do not have the intensity of MS games.

I am hesitant about a challenge database, as it may inadvertently encourage mods to rely on it more as a first step than encouraging mods to develop new challenges, new challenge types, new challenge mechanisms, etc. Granted, mods may not use it as a first response and only as a back-up, and I anticipate that argument. However, modding isn't supposed to be easy. It's gotta be tough because it's quite the commitment. Having to click through a challenge forum to find different challenges, especially when you have to click on individual games is a serious pain. Another serious pain is fool-proofing challenges and finding every single loophole. I think as a mod, past game research has to be a necessary step to become a decent mod to practice those clerical and perusing skills. Reading all the past games and all the different rulesets teaches the skill of how to write challenges and rules. It can be beneficial to see how past games have made mistakes in not anticipating all loopholes and how to learn from those mistakes. Having standardized rules helps, but doesn't teach that skill. However, all this time commitment can be an obstacle to getting new mods. My suggestion would be to research some good games/challenges that had well-written rulesets and see how that can help for your game as a mod. And then research some bad games/challenges that had poorly-written rulesets and read the spec forums or post-game hashing to see how that could have been improved. Any past "cancelled challenge" should be required reading for new mods.

I think having a standard ruleset for some very typical challenge formats such as fastest time jigsaw puzzles, trivia brackets, highest score flash games could be helpful to have in specific cases. There are several challenge types that have been utilized almost identically for at least 4 games in the last two years (I'd venture that half of that is CC stealing from himself though). I think that might be the aim that CreativeMod and Vash are going for with the typical challenges. I'm not opposed to that, because while I'm not a fan of any type of recycled challenges, I know those types of challenges will be reused. I'm not sure that having a comprehensive challenge database is going to be worth the time to create though when there's Bororbudur, all of Medevac/One World, Babar challenges, KSS challenges, etc. If anything is done, it should be for a challenge type done 3x or more.

Standardized overall game rules is a good idea.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:59 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Agreed about a new forum creation guide. The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion. Hopefully SimpleMachines will be successful enough that energy can be focused in that direction post-Equestria.

I think a challenge database is a good idea. I have a paper one for my own use somewhere in my office although I haven't seen it in almost a year. I understand pablito's hesitancy about possibly stifling creativity. However, I think our Wiki should eventually include every type of challenge that gets used not just so mods know what challenges work, but also which challenges fail and why they failed. Creativity can still be encouraged in a hypothetical Game Design guide (I try to use a general Rule of Thirds where roughly 1/3 of the challenges are brand new, 1/3 are variations on old challenges, and 1/3 are retreads; I think new moderators should follow that principle as well until they have experience knowing what makes a good or bad challenge).
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:35 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

I would also like to echo Haschel's sentiments regarding challenge database.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, I think we can only benefit from a challenge database. It gives feedback on what worked and what didn't work. Speaking purely from someone who has never modded a game before, I feel like I'm just going to be re reading old games anyways for ideas and inspiration. Does that mean I'm going to rip off every challenge ever done before? Heck no. I like my theme, and I wanna do my own thing. But anything to help me have resources to draw inspiration from, or verify that any challenge I "create" hasn't worked well prior or has been done a bunch, will help me eliminate the possibility of over duplicating/using past challenges.

To drive the point home, if I am not easily able to know which challenges have/have not been done before, what's to say I don't come up with a "brilliant idea" that I think hasn't been done before and is unique, only to find that it used to be played a bunch like 6-7 years ago in games I wasn't even around for?

I don't think a database will eliminate creativity and actually might make it a fun challenge to create something completely outside the norm entirely :)
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:49 am

Post by CreativeMod1 »

Okay, I'm gonna get started on this...but I'll need a lot of help as there'll be lots of challenges to go through and collect

In terms of creativity, I think it'll help build creativity as it'll give mods more time to create new things, I highly agree about research though and how you can learn a lot from previous games and see for any mistakes, so it might also be good to have links to all previous games within the database, but have 1 specific example of a good rules set

It can also allow mods to confidentially say "this is a brand new challenge, never before seen" and on the opposite end of things, you could as a mod say bring up stories of past plays of said challenge like Jeff does

I strongly listen to your points Pablito, and I hope that by adding other things to the database it'll help with some of those points like showing places where a challenge was cancelled and why
If anything it'll help for that kind of research, let's say I wanna mod a challenge that I've seen 3 times, I have those 3 as great resources on how to run said challenge but, as a newer mod I don't know that this challenge was cancelled a few years ago due to something going wrong (don't expect me to have read every survivor game) I then run the game and make the same mistakes as the one that went wrong and have to cancel my one too

So yeah research is great, organised research is better

Another idea Ive just had for this is a moderator notes sections, the idea of this would be that some challenges may have things that the mods do that isn't visible to those playing so it could be handy to know what goes on behind the scenes, it'll save you from having to message the mod of the game to ask about it
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:42 am

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In post 2, VashtaNeurotic wrote:2. Most games are linked in the Anonymous Characters Database in the "Links" tab (though it is currently missing legendary): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =130718772 .
Also and more accessibly, there's sort of a wiki page for this that some people invest a solid amount of time into. I know some of the games might not have forum links there but many do and those that do not really should.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:43 pm

Post by CreativeMod1 »

Okay so I've started creating a challenge list for challenges used in LSG, i'd love it if I could get some help and support in filling up this spreadsheet, I've made a start on it using the challenges from CotM 2018
There's 2 sheets on there:
1) a list of all challenges used per LSG, so you can see I've made the first column for CotM, very simply listed all the challenges used in that game and then linked them all to their rules
2) a complete list of every challenge, within this sheet we group together rules set of the same rules, the first rules column should be used for the best and clearest example of the rules with the end columns for other examples. There's that says whether a challenge is a solo challenge or a team one (I'm counting team challenges that are mainly played as if you are a solo as it being solo e.g. sushi go). Finally, there's a column for if you have some mod notes for behind the scenes based things.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'd really love some help on keeping this sheet updated and filling it up with loads of challenges...feel free to also add examples and rules sets from mish mash games

Also, I'm not great at like jazzing up spreadsheets, more of organising stuff, so if anyone wants to make it look fabulous then be my guest

(Side note, lol looking through CotM and I saw in the Diamant game Cuddly mentions that he should sort through and collect all the challenges together viewtopic.php?f=116&t=77997)
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:04 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 4, Haschel Cedricson wrote:The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion.
the listmods havent created a game since switching to a new platform

im honestly looking for help understanding how to setup a proboards forum myself

you're welcome to create the guide or work on one though
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:15 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

In post 9, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 4, Haschel Cedricson wrote:The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion.
the listmods havent created a game since switching to a new platform
Setting aside the fact that CC literally just ran Survivor: Legendary so that's not true at all, perhaps that's part of what I think is unacceptable. We knew we would need a replacement for Zetaboards in July; I don't think expecting the listmods to help with a solution within a nine-month timeframe is unreasonable.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:28 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 10, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 9, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 4, Haschel Cedricson wrote:The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion.
the listmods havent created a game since switching to a new platform
Setting aside the fact that CC literally just ran Survivor: Legendary so that's not true at all, perhaps that's part of what I think is unacceptable. We knew we would need a replacement for Zetaboards in July; I don't think expecting the listmods to help with a solution within a nine-month timeframe is unreasonable.
1. CC wasn't involved with the functionality/backend setup of Proboards for Legendary. Which is why I specifically used the verb "created". By the time CC got on board with the Legendary mod team, Vijarada had already done the vast majority of forum setup. And Vijarada seems to have a really good grasp of the software.

2. We evaluated other platforms. On the back end, we had been investigating with Kison whether there was something within PHPBB3 that could replace the functionality (that was a dead end) and then we reached out to some people who used NDIM Forums but never heard back. We evaluated fluxBB as well, but it was severely limited in functionality compared to what we used with Zetaboards. Then there was CODOFORUM, which requires purchasing web space to host the forum itself. By the time we got done tracking down these other options and evaluating them, Killing School Semester was already deep into the game, and Legendary was heading forward and would use Proboards, so it seemed the community had landed upon other alternatives already.

3. I know you
love
to publicly blast the listmods, but being toxic and assuming we're all just lazy or not doing our jobs is maybe a bit unwarranted. Again: you're free to take steps towards creating guides and resources for the community, as most guides/resources of that type have come from the community in the past (ani's newbie guide, CC's Elo ratings (before he was a listmod), the resources CreativeMod is putting together in this very thread).
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:11 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

In post 11, xRECKONERx wrote:3. I know you love to publicly blast the listmods, but being toxic and assuming we're all just lazy or not doing our jobs is maybe a bit unwarranted.
I don't know where this is coming from because I have gone out of my way to NOT publicly blast the listmods. I made one comment here that I stand by, and I had no plans of posting in this topic again. But since you want to talk about this in public, then yes, I do think the entire LSG modteam has dropped the ball here. Yes, I think the listmods not making transition to new forum software a number one priority is not doing their jobs. Yes, I think it's lazy for a listmod assigned to a game to not even log into the forums while the game is in process. I think it's bad for for a listmod to volunteer to comod an LSG and then flake out without even notifying the other comods that they needed to find a replacement. You quoted all of those community-made resources but failed to mention that they were all made before the LSG forum with dedicated listmods was a thing. Saying "Oh, we'll just let the community do it!" is ignoring your job.

Survivor Equestria is starting tomorrow, and we'll be hosting it on the MS servers. We're doing that because I asked the listmods to help me with that, got ignored, and went to Kison myself.

For the record none of this is personal; all three of you are great people. But I'm not thrilled about where the LSG forum is at the moment and frankly I would hope you all aren't either.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:35 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

we investigated other options. for months. by which point the community had come up with their own solution, so we let it be up to the gamemod.

i'm not sure what you're referencing with a listmod flaking on a game, but there's PROBABLY extenuating circumstances that explain it if it's related to what i think it is.

if this is what it looks like when you try NOT to blast the listmods i'd hate to see what it looks like when you do.

FWIW, you not once ever asked me to help with finding Equestria hosting. so i'm not sure why you feel ignored, or who ignored you.

in any case, it's clear you have an axe to grind so feel free to open up a private message with the listmods to seek out a solution when you have a problem (as other users have done).
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:06 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

In post 13, xRECKONERx wrote:if this is what it looks like when you try NOT to blast the listmods i'd hate to see what it looks like when you do.
Oh, that last post was blasting the listmods. I'm referring to before when you somehow took "The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion" and turned it into "I know you
love
to publicly blast the listmods", implying I have a history of doing this when you know perfectly well that's not the case.

Believe me, I address plenty of concerns in private messages. As far as axes to grind go, you're the one who brought personal attacks into this.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:39 pm

Post by CreativeMod1 »

Don't wanna get too much involved but...

If you got time to argue, you got time to check out my awesome spreadsheet and go contribute to it

Yes this is my attempt at trying to bring this thread back to its main purpose, I'm trying to create something to help support the community, I don't want this to be turned into something about what people did or didn't do
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:27 am

Post by Vijarada »

In post 11, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 10, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 9, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 4, Haschel Cedricson wrote:The fact that the listmods haven't made one yet for proboards or another zetaboards replacement is borderline unacceptable in my opinion.
the listmods havent created a game since switching to a new platform
Setting aside the fact that CC literally just ran Survivor: Legendary so that's not true at all, perhaps that's part of what I think is unacceptable. We knew we would need a replacement for Zetaboards in July; I don't think expecting the listmods to help with a solution within a nine-month timeframe is unreasonable.
1. CC wasn't involved with the functionality/backend setup of Proboards for Legendary. Which is why I specifically used the verb "created". By the time CC got on board with the Legendary mod team, Vijarada had already done the vast majority of forum setup. And Vijarada seems to have a really good grasp of the software.
i never found proboards or zetaboards that difficult really (proboards theming being much easier), so i'm not totally sure a guide would help that much. it's not suuuuper hard to find stuff you need on google? for proboards at least.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:31 am

Post by Vijarada »

i continue to believe that arguing about the finer points of the list moderation is a waste of time if we have like 5 large socials a year, which would happen with or without them (before them we had more in fact!).
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:56 am

Post by CreativeMod1 »

In post 16, Vijarada wrote:
In post 11, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 10, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 9, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 4, Haschel Cedricson wrote:The fact that Creativemod1 made a spreadsheet for challenges is absolutely amazing in my opinion.
the listmods havent created a game since switching to a new platform but his spreadsheet when full up will make it quicker for them to do so
Setting aside the fact that CC literally just ran Survivor: Legendary so that's not true at all, but I'm sure it will be better for their next game given CM1s sexy spreadsheet. We didn't have Creativemod1 back in July, I wish we did, he's a really fun and funny guy
Omg I know right, Creativemod1 is so amazing, he always makes me laugh and he's such a genius with some of his ideas, I think he could solve anything, I can't wait for when he moderates a game, I bet it'll be the best game ever
You're so right, did you see his amazing ideas in the Mish mash reorganization thread? Wow he takes my breath away with how sexy his mind is sometimes, and yeah I see he's started working on an MCU themed game, I'm gonna be the first one to sign up to that!!!

I got bored so I fixed the quotes xD
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:13 am

Post by McMenno »

In post 18, CreativeMod1 wrote:
In post 16, Vijarada wrote:
house
tonight
mafiascum is on life support
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:05 am

Post by CaptainMeme »

I'm planning to fill this out for RTC at some point :) I'd be really interested in seeing mod comments on challenges for other games (Especially KSS)
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:42 am

Post by CreativeMod1 »

Yussss meme!!
Yeah I hope that people really use the mod notes bit, it'll be very helpful to know some things that go on behind the scenes
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:39 pm

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

I was really happy with all the challenges in the Void, Rick and Morty, and Summer of Spookz, I'll try to get all of those filled in!
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:31 am

Post by CreativeMod1 »

BUMP!!!
The lovely xofelf has done some beautiful work on the spreadsheet and put a few more challenges on there, could other mods please update from their previous games too please <3 <3 <3
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:00 am

Post by xofelf »

You're welcome. I figure if I'm searching for a specific thing anyways, I may as well just fill in the spreadsheet as I go. The one thing is, there's some challenges that will be a touch difficult to describe but probably should come up with some standard title to group them together. Also if I'm feeling particularly ambitious, I may go look at nonanon challenges from way back when as some of those have not been duplicated since.
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