[Standard] Survivor: Know Your Enemies (Summer wins!)

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:01 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 148, Espeonage wrote:@tris and ari: Why was Malkon or Jess not eliminated over Skrew? Bc the moment Skrew went at that TC the game was over for you two.

Like I am only asking a question out of politeness. This vote has been locked since Awoo left the game. The tier list since awoo for ftc has been Jess > Malkon > Me > People who can't win if any of those three make it to ftc. Like if there was an idol play that would be fine. But voting out Skrew was game throwing and game throwing is not voteworthy in FTC.
That was all me and I've been trying to take proper credit for a while now.

Maybe I shouldn't be.

I voted skrew in an active effort to keep those two as I thought my loyalty was another aspect of my game that could be sold to the jury.

I was wrong.

So be it.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:15 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 144, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:I brought Jess to F3 out of loyalty to my allies. I would have brought Awoo here as well if they had made it far enough that I could make that choice. I would have lost to them, as I am losing now, I suppose. I can accept the defeat, I just legitimately thought that my saving an ally despite knowing she was strong, that my honouring an alliance that started in the budding points of the game, that my ability to make this game what *I* wanted it to be rather than relying on others to get here or relying on challenge wins to get here, well I thought that would all speak to my abilities and to a winning strategy in showing how I had outplayed her here. I guess I was wrong.
Using my third and final post to reply to this. I want you to know that I understand this thinking and in fact have used it myself in #2016 when I won the FIC and chose to not betray my ally Ted Cruz, bringing him to FTC where he made me look like a chump instead of the game's uber-goat Hillary Clinton. Loyalty IS a valuable part of Survivor, and in fact it often can be a crucial part of jury management. So yeah, I completely understand why this is a frustrating FTC for you because I know how much it sucks when something you planned to be the capstone of your game turns out to be a surprise lodestone around your neck.

LSGs on MS tend to not be the friendliest to new players who don't know the expectations the community has of them; most games have the early boots littered with players who didn't PM enough or thought that "keeping the starting tribe strong" was the most important thing. There have been discussions about how to fix this, but I've concluded that sometimes players need to be kicked in the dick so they can improve next game. I know from first-hand experience that this FTC probably also feels like getting kicked in the dick. It sucks, but take solace in the fact that this is a special dick-kicking that many members of the community - longtime members, even! - never have the chance to experience.

Look at this FTC not as the end of Survivor: Know Your Enemy, but as a waypoint on the evolution of your LSG career. This hurts right now, but I guarantee next time you are within striking distance of FTC this will be an invaluable experience that very well could lead to victory in the future.

That's my time. Love you all (yes, you too, Ari <3) and I'll see you all on the other side of the reveal.
Haschel, I don't know what to say here other than to thank you for this post.

I think you do know how much it meant to me to read this, and I appreciate you burning your final post in order to address me here.

This has been the most high-stress, unpleasant, special dick kick I have experienced in a long time.

I honestly felt the votes would at least be somewhat divided here. That I would have been able to argue down some of the things brought up against me. That I could make an honest case for a game well played and that I could maybe squeak out a victory from it.

Apparently that all was thrown away simply because I am sitting beside Jess.

I appreciate so dearly that this game is being played with friends who I know and trust. You are all fantastic and are doing a great job as jurors. I can't wait for it to be over now though.

I suppose I'm honoured to be in this elite group of individuals who got their asses handed to them after what they thought was a fantastically played game.
I have indeed learned a lot from it. And I will do better next time.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:30 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

https://vocaroo.com/1j5bMmqFFvQv

This is not an important question to answer, feel free to get to it if you have time, this is just a quick explanation for the way I am voting, an apology for a couple things I got wrong, followed by a question at the very end.

If you have time and are looking for a question to answer, feel free to get to this, otherwise feel free to ignore it. It's just a silly, fun thing to do if you have time :)
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:32 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Ari, thanks for responding.

I think the problem is partially with the way you're handling FTC. You're acknowledging that we all think you were just riding Summer's coat-tails, and you're telling us that that's not the case - but you're not giving us much to consider in terms of actually trying to convince us that that's not the case. The onus is on you to convince us that we're wrong.

You started moving in that direction with discussing the SleepyKrew vote at F5 in post 145, but you still did it in a way that forces us to do the mental gymnastics. I can sort of try and guide you in the right direction...
  • What were you deciding between? If you don't vote for Skrew, what happens?
  • In what way was the play your risk? You got zero votes that TC; do you think you would have gotten cut at 4 if the move backfired?
  • What did Jess think you were going to do? When did Jess find out what you did, was it during the TC or once the votes got read?
I don't think the argument is there for you to change things, but if you want to take credit for that move, you need to explain why you deserve the credit, especially because six of the eight jurors didn't live long enough to see it happen.

------

And now that you've addressed Skrew's question about me, I think I'll bite on giving that a reply.

Ari, the reason people told me I was likely going out was out of respect. On the Jury probably around the F6, Haschel and I described your social game as coming directly out of Survivor 101, in that it was like a Physics 101 class where you ignore friction and air resistance, and treat every object like a point mass. Sure, backstabbing people is generally how Survivor is played out, but at some point you need to strip away the Survivor label and just go from social skills. That's why people told me I was getting voted out. That's why I was, and to an extent still am, upset at you - it all looked so fake in retrospect, even the parts that weren't us talking Survivor. You never tore off the disguise.

I'm happy to discuss this more postgame, but I have no desire to try and re-litigate this before the winner is announced tomorrow night.

------

Also @Jess I'd still like an answer to my first question!
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:44 pm

Post by Pine »

In post 150, Aristophanes wrote:
In post 148, Espeonage wrote:@tris and ari: Why was Malkon or Jess not eliminated over Skrew? Bc the moment Skrew went at that TC the game was over for you two.

Like I am only asking a question out of politeness. This vote has been locked since Awoo left the game. The tier list since awoo for ftc has been Jess > Malkon > Me > People who can't win if any of those three make it to ftc. Like if there was an idol play that would be fine. But voting out Skrew was game throwing and game throwing is not voteworthy in FTC.
That was all me and I've been trying to take proper credit for a while now.

Maybe I shouldn't be.

I voted skrew in an active effort to keep those two as I thought my loyalty was another aspect of my game that could be sold to the jury.

I was wrong.

So be it.
That's...kind of why you're losing here, friend. You're trying to take credit for Skrew's exit when you should be trying to excuse the strategic blunder. You'd have had a shot with me against Skrew, you don't against Jess.

Also big +1 to everything D3f had to say.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:57 pm

Post by SummerInWonderland »

Hey D3f! Sorry it took me so long to answer. I have been super busy but also I wanted to really think about this question.

What I did differently? (strategic, social, structural)


I really don’t want this to come off as cocky but I have always been a pretty solid survivor player. Medevac was my first anon survivor game and still to this day overall my best game I think. In games I often have extremely high moments where I am dominating the game and then some lows where my back is up against a wall. Medevac a lot went right for me. I was in control for most game. For those who know nothing about medevac, think of it like I was Awoo in this game but when I got in trouble I idol’d out the biggest threat and carried on to make it to the end and win. Each game I play, despite if I won or not I try to learn from my experiences. There were quite a bit of similarities from that game to this but also some differences ill get into.

Strategic-
This was my first real game so I can say while I played a dominating game I wasn’t the refined player I am now. Strategically in that game I picked one path and ran with it, if it didn’t work I would be scrambling to come up with another idea. A lot of things worked that game but I didn’t have many backup plans. Most rounds this game I was planning in advance what my options were, what other people would want, what I could reasonably do, if people needed me as a vote, making sure there were targets ahead of me so that if I did find myself in a bad position I was able to get out of it. In medevac I wasn't quite able to think of the game fully in that way and honestly I just was a new cocky player thinking everything would work out for me :)

Social
– Medevac is where I learned my social approach to games. The best friend, the goons, the shield strategy came from this game and each time I play I add to this. I probably could have a decent survivor guide at this point lol I did lose allies that game that I have learned how to manage a lot better. I had an ally flip on me because they saw me as a threat, didn’t think we were equal but back then I very boldly told them why they were wrong and I was quite an aggressive player.
Going to bring it back to this game a bit. I learned that, telling someone what to do in the game of survivor rarely works out. I am just gonna to use this as an example here for discussion purposes :P
In this FTC ari stated the following:

But Skrew, Summer did not play me in this game and I chose to make every move I made. I was not even consulting Summer for most of them other than to tell her where we were at and what we were doing. She did not control me. She did not control the game. I did.”
In medevac when I told someone what to do and I didn’t consult them I learned very quickly that it is a horrible way to get someone to do what you want. When manipulating people its about making them think they came up with the idea, that they have control. I think I did that a lot this game quite well, especially with ari and I didn’t do that in medevac. This answer does play into something Skrew asked me so I am going to expand on it in that question !! but socially in medevac, I didn’t quite understand how to talk to people I was trying to manage. Its really hard to do, and I think I did that this game much better. If you tell someone without asking them for their input, or just saying you have an idea and you want them to go along with it, A LOT of the times that isnt going to work out because
1) no one wants to be told what to do - people at the very least want the illusion of control.
2) it makes them feel like a not valuable ally - "why did they come up with this without talking to me and seeing what I want" "do I even MATTER to them?"
thats what happens. I had made this mistake in medevac, I was thinking mostly about what I wanted and how I could get it, often not factoring in how other people would perceive those words. I told people what to do and thought I could get away with it and I lost a goat ally because of it.


Structure
- Medevac had a stamina twist that meant the structure of the game was very important to play to. I always look to use everything I can to my advantage and I have ALWAYS done this but I can say now, in this game, I relied less on idols, advantages and challenges. As long as Malkon didn’t win the FIC I think I was always making it to the end. At final 5 I proved I didn’t need immunity. I kept my idol until the last possible moment where I didn’t need to play it, the kayne idol never came out so my idol nullifier was never needed. I think immuntiies and advantages are important parts of the game but people often say I “rely on them” and “could never get to the end if I didn’t have idols/immuntiies” that way of thinking was true for medevac for better or worse. I don’t think that applies to this game, they helped me out a lot! I put a lot of work into having multiple ways to survive and play from a positon of power this game, and I think that is quite different than my first game in medevac.


thanks for the fun question! its been a while since I have thought about that game and brought back some good memories
also fun fact @haschel almost beat me and snuck out the win that game! (forever being a thorn in my side ;) ) xoxo
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:42 pm

Post by Espeonage »

I have spent over two hours putting this post together and I'd been planning it for over a week. I have given everyone from merge onwards a song.

As I already know my vote, and will provide a blurb as I submit it, I wanted to take a post to create a moment with everyone. This was a very weird game being a non-anon and not knowing many of you particularly well beforehand. I wasn't the best player this game, and I went through a lot in my real life, but this game was here to come back to as much of a struggle it was.

So, please find and hopefully enjoy your song. All of these songs that I personally adore for various reasons, and they reflect a feeling, an emotion, a message, or an explanation for various things in this game. Every single one comes from a place of love and maybe you won't understand but each of these is an expression of how I view you or some part of our game together.

Spoiler: Mist


Spoiler: DK


Spoiler: D3f


Spoiler: Pine


Spoiler: Awoo


Spoiler: Espe


Spoiler: HC


Spoiler: Skrew


Spoiler: Malkon


Spoiler: Ari


Spoiler: Tris


Spoiler: Jess
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:16 pm

Post by SummerInWonderland »

Hey skrew! :o
How did I (skrew) play the best game on paper?


Well silly you should know this :P but I GUESSSSSSSSS I can explain it for you…. so “on paper” you were on the right side of the vote the most in merge, at the time received no votes against you.
There is a lot of uhh not on paper reasons why you were one of the top players this game. You threat managed really well, and honestly played me which like…I like to think is very hard to do. Sure, I ended up beating you BUT that was me making people act out of their best interests. You had good timing for your moves, you had a lot of information throughout the game (oops!). Overall, just a very strong game without many flaws.

How did the vote on me come about?

Okay I have already talked about this vote but I am REALLY going to get into it. So prepare for a play by play!
I didn’t mention this before but gonna go through some of the obvious as well

1) I started this round talking to you, obviously I needed to see if there was anyway you would think about keeping me. I knew it was a long shot but I at least wanted to see what information I could get from you. This may seem like an unimportant thing but you told me malkon/tris had already said they wanted to vote me so I knew I had to work on tris harder than I would have probably without this because she didn’t own up to wanting to vote me until later in the evening after I pushed her to I had to get her to own up to wanting me out, without being forceful so that after we could discuss not voting me out lol. Anyways, I did this only because I just needed to rule you out, move on, and come up with a plan to stay and beat you

2) This answers the big/misconstrued question as well. I had twist things A LOT this round. I mentioned this and explained briefly what I said to tris. I also did a very similar thing to Ari! I haven’t mentioned this but during this round I called ari to discuss the options of the round. I approached it with the idea of figuring out “who would be best for us to sit next to in the end?” to do this, I went through every combination of ftcs for us and where the votes would go on paper. I made a chart for me/ari/skrew, me/ari/tris, me/ari/malkon. I went through each one writing where I think the jurors would go and the justifications for that. I had Malkon as “stealing votes from ari” I portrayed it as Ari would never stan a chance against Malkon because they would be competing for the same votes- in this situation I had it down as Malkon gets 1st, I get 2nd, ari is in 3rd. I then went into the Ftc scenario where you are at the end with us, and the narrative I pushed was that you played the best game on paper/had no flaws and no bad relationships really. The end product of the chart was – this would be the most “up in the air” ftc as in Ari didn’t have many secured votes, you could have swept which meant you were arguably the most dangerous person to have in the end. I also had written out a ftc where me/tris/ari were in the end together, and not surprisingly I had it written out that Ari and I went in having the same amount of “locked votes” but the rest of the jurors could vote either of us, so we both stood a good chance of winning!! This was because I needed ari to feel like he could beat me in then end AND that he wanted to target you/malkon when it made most sense for me to take you out. To be clear, most of what I said I thought was polished believable bullshit. I made stuff up to make myself look weaker like "d3f and I had a horrible relationship and we never talked" (not true) " Pine is probably going to vote for you because you were the one leading his vote" (not true) "Awoo was your closest ally so he obviously is going to be a lock for you, you never betrayed him meaning he will vote for you!" (not true) I think this was important to my overall success here because Ari and I were on call discussing it as I wrote it out, we were working together on figuring out the best path for both of us, thats how I went about it, and that I think is a much better effective method than telling someone how it is. :)

3) After having figured out the FTC breakdowns with Ari it was really easy to make it seem like taking you out was the best because we had talked about it and Ari agreed you were the most up in the air potential person to beat in the end! plus adding in that you were probably better at challenges

4) I already talked about getting tris onto voting Malkon (so please go back and see that! But that goes here)

5) Yeah Ari did the stuff with Malkon, or Ari agreed to do what Malkon wanted. Not gonna claim any sway in that conversation.

6) At this point I knew if everyone was being honest with me the vote was going to be 1-1-1 leaving Ari and my votes to be the deciding ones.

7) I thought at that time you were the biggest threat to me getting to the end and winning so knowing the vote would go through on you, I took the shot.

I was able to take you out this round- and have ari and tris believing their best shots were against me; this was no small feat lol


What's your favorite Digimon?


imma go with patamon :)
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:17 pm

Post by SummerInWonderland »

oop lots of typos - sorry I am rushing a little bc trying to get a lot of homework done :( sorry
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:08 pm

Post by SleepyKrew »

@tris
Not playing Pokemon is one thing, but not having a favorite Pokemon is entirely different! Would favorite Digimon be better for you?

Thanks to all 3 of you for answering my questions. Nothing so far has made me reconsider my vote, so I won't make you jump through further hoops. I'm happy to discuss stuff after the game. gg!
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:13 pm

Post by tris »

i would love to talk more freely about things where people don't have limited posts after the game!
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:31 pm

Post by tris »

also, i want to reiterate that i do not feel too bad about this. well, i do keep thinking about how i did things wrong, but i'm going to channel that into improving for the future. and, i am happy that i made it all the way here, and i think i have a lot of potential.

i also appreciate how you are trying to keep things positive malkon <3
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:32 pm

Post by tris »

i am recalling right now how summer would often say "people aren't talking to me" lol.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:33 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 153, D3f3nd3r wrote:Ari, thanks for responding.
Np, sorry about the delay on it.

I see what you are saying about making the Jury do the work here. I'm not going to change anything at this point, and I accept that. I was warned the jury would beat me up a bit, I just was expecting to have more to stand on in here. But let's give some answers.
  • What were you deciding between? If you don't vote for Skrew, what happens?
    if I don't vote for Skrew Malkon goes. And I have to trust the F4 to keep me
    I figured I had a better chance of getting to FTC without Skrew there because I was unsure if he would target Tris and i was unsure is he had more Firemaking points than I did. But I assumed he did and did not want to lose it to a tied vote.

  • In what way was the play your risk? You got zero votes that TC; do you think you would have gotten cut at 4 if the move backfired?
    I had a theory that Malkon and Tris were actually still with Skrew on Jess and timing, among other things, led me to that possibility. It was a risk to go against the tribe there, to lie to them about what I was doing, and to put my nech out so far. It wasn'tthat round, but in F4 and in FTC that I thought it was risky for. If I had made that move and failed, would I be here? I don't know.

  • What did Jess think you were going to do? When did Jess find out what you did, was it during the TC or once the votes got read?
    I told Jess I was voting them and said goodbye that morning. I then had talks with Malkon and Tris and told Jess because at this point we were committed allies and I had made the choice to fight for having her in FTC so of course I was telling her things. I convinced her on the Skrewed maneuver when I Big Brained out a little before FTC. If I had not, her vote would have been on Malkon.
------
And now that you've addressed Skrew's question about me, I think I'll bite on giving that a reply.

Ari, the reason people told me I was likely going out was out of respect. On the Jury probably around the F6, Haschel and I described your social game as coming directly out of Survivor 101, in that it was like a Physics 101 class where you ignore friction and air resistance, and treat every object like a point mass. Sure, backstabbing people is generally how Survivor is played out, but at some point you need to strip away the Survivor label and just go from social skills. That's why people told me I was getting voted out. That's why I was, and to an extent still am, upset at you - it all looked so fake in retrospect, even the parts that weren't us talking Survivor. You never tore off the disguise.
This response has 2 parts.

First, wrt my 101 survivor play, I know that backstabbing isn't the only thing one can do. I am aware other plays exist and that I had other choices. I found something I could do, though, and leaned into it. My other options were to backstab ot betray my original alliances, which furthers this issue, or to become full Goat, which I did not want to do amd which would not have let me win here as I would have nothing to claim as my own.

The second part is going to make me unpopular but it's not like I have the votes to lose so whatever.

I am sorry that I did not tell you. I am sorry that I felt fake in my interactions with you. It has nothing to do with respect. I do respect you, I did enjoy talking with you, running a game together was great. You're a cool guy and I'm sorry that I hurt you.

The reason I do not turn off game mode in conversations is because unless it is predecated by a clause stating it is not game related, it is game related.

In my second ever game of Mafia, I made some sort of offhanded comment to a friend that had little to do with the game but told them I knew info. I was dead and they already had that info, but it made me worry.

In a game 2 years later I went out with a friend who was in a mafia game. We did not even mention it was a thing, but apparently my irl presence told him I was town and therefore turned the tide of the game. I'm still mot sure I should count that victory even though no cheating happened.

When I am in a game, I talk game. It flavours every interaction. sorry about that.
It is part if why I am looking forward to this game being over so much. Because I want the freedom to talk and bond and connect with all the wonderful people who played in this game. I thoroughly enjoyed it and every one of you in it. I want to better get to know those I met here or was simply not as talkative with before the game. I want to be able to do so unrestrained. If that makes me a weaker player, then so be it. But while I have the ability to divorce game talk and personal talk, I do not for the risk of slips in info and the of throwing a game are too great.

I'm not sure how much more I have left in me. I could go through Summer's posts and point out inconsistencies I've noticed. I might get one or two votes from that. I'm not sure if the time sink is worth it, but depending on how I feel after work I may do that closer to deadline.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:36 am

Post by Aristophanes »

I should clarify that the last portion of that post does not mean I was disingenuous with any of you. I love you all and I meant what I said to you and I really enjoyed you all and getting to know you.

I mean that it was all slightly flavoured by the game. But it was all still genuine.
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Ari has appeared way too competent for me to even pretend to know what they're thinking
- MooseEatsBear on discord mafia
it wouldn’t be an ari sig unless it takes up half the screen on mobile - Vonflare
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:31 am

Post by SummerInWonderland »

Malkon I started your question last night - but got super busy and only came up with a few. Ill post them just because I have them, sorry I didnt get to finish this question im hella busy

MALKONS GIF

Image
maybe we just closed a chapter instead and our story isn't done?.... Malkon/Jess part three ;) hopefully this round goes better.... hehe

Sleepykrews gif

Image
*smiles*

I also had this one for
Ari

Image
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:38 am

Post by Aristophanes »

<3
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:40 am

Post by Aristophanes »

Espeonage, thank you for the song. I understood a lot of depth from it and I don't think I've read too much into it.
Half meme, Half real, All Aristophanes ;)
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Ari has appeared way too competent for me to even pretend to know what they're thinking
- MooseEatsBear on discord mafia
it wouldn’t be an ari sig unless it takes up half the screen on mobile - Vonflare
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:52 am

Post by SummerInWonderland »

Thank you everyone for hearing my story. For those of you who made comments and didn’t have questions for me I would just like to say thank you.I have read everything and appreciated what yall had to say. I will be messaging you individually after <3

I was planning on saying more here at the end but sadly time got away from me :(
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:38 am

Post by Aristophanes »

Half meme, Half real, All Aristophanes ;)
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Ari has appeared way too competent for me to even pretend to know what they're thinking
- MooseEatsBear on discord mafia
it wouldn’t be an ari sig unless it takes up half the screen on mobile - Vonflare
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:26 am

Post by zoraster »

Thank you for participating, everyone! Please join us at 21:30 EDT for festivities and the live reading of the vote.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:10 pm

Post by zoraster »

The Finale is in 20 minutes. If you'd like to join us in the voice chat for it, you can do so here: https://discord.gg/vbNUvr

Please be respectful of the participants!
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Post by zoraster »

This thread is now unlocked!
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:12 pm

Post by Mist7676 »

rabble
You Are Worth It
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:14 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 173, Mist7676 wrote:rabble
Half meme, Half real, All Aristophanes ;)
- Jingle
Ari has appeared way too competent for me to even pretend to know what they're thinking
- MooseEatsBear on discord mafia
it wouldn’t be an ari sig unless it takes up half the screen on mobile - Vonflare
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