Hydra Discussion Thread

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:10 pm

Post by Fluminator »

Hydras should be banned. It's way too big an advantage. I know first hand.

I get it's so much fun, it really is. But survivor is not the best platform for hydras. If there was a LSG that had the hydra mechanic built in naturally, that would be a ton of fun though.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:33 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

In post 118, VashtaNeurotic wrote:The situation with P&D was a bit nuanced as we didn't want to softlock a hydra because of time zone issues (and would not happen if we didn't decide that to alternate a hydra head must actually participate in a challenge first, but I stand by that view) and it was definitely a better solution than any other one available at the time.
This was unfair as we weren't sat out of the challenge, we counted as one of the competing players Sirius just didn't submit anything during it. I would think your partner submitting a big fat zero and not speaking during the challenge is punishment enough.
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:55 pm

Post by Klick »

I understand why there's a focus on the challenge aspect of hydras - it's a lot more obviously measurable. But the problem with hydras becomes much more obvious when you consider the implications of a hydra playing a particularly strong social game.

In a social game, players are only really limited by what they are able to think of saying. One player is capable of making all of the decisions that that person would think of making. If you add a second mind into that mix, you're adding a second person's set of decisions into the potential options for that slot. An effective hydra would definitely be able to sort between those two players' sets of potential decisions and choose to do things that would work better than either player would consider doing on their own.

As a simple example, I didn't follow the last game, but Skelda spoke about the clear advantage there seemed to be in having a hydra to talk things through with at FTC. Often, FTC mistakes wind up being due to individual short-sightedness, not being able to see something from a juror's perspective. Having two people interpret what a juror is saying makes it a lot more likely that the slot will be able to give a response that the juror will favor.

Anyone who has worked together with a particularly tight ally in a game should really be able to see that two people working together are able to do so much more than either of them would be capable of alone.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:57 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

Uh anyways my opinion as one member of the hydra in Pantheon that was the least hydra-ey hydra: Just having someone take over every second challenge gave me huge peace of mind. Just days that I could take as a break from Survivor and then come back refreshed for PMing because I wasn't spending the first week of the game playing a board game or two hours cursing Baba Yaga's name. Of course it was an advantage. The hardest thing about Survivor is it takes so much time investment and you have two people's time blocks to work with. In my opinion the winning hydra obviously benefitted from having two people pumping out FTC content as well whereas the other finalist had empty timezones where he was, shock, busy.

TBH I don't know why Pantheon is being used as an example of why its a problem though: Pantheon was a Bastard Game. There was one Hydra on each starting tribe so it was like "representative player for the Tribe with massive advantage twist here". Maybe don't take the player with the massive advantage to the end? Regardless I agree hydras should be used as coaching experiences and people should not pick each other when hydras are allowed, because struggling players don't always know they're the ones that need help. It's something the mods should judge and decide. Run more games like Survivor Legendary with EXP tribe vs Newbie tribe with Coaches.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:04 pm

Post by Klick »

I do think there's merit in asking whether the fun of having hydras in games justifies the imbalance though. My answer would be 'probably not', but I dunno, I don't have much stake in that argument.

PEdit: not read that last post yet but Shadow is probably right
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:17 pm

Post by Mist7676 »

Ok, I also wanted to respond to this because I obviously have thoughts, but didn't know where to start.

First off, I do think playing into a hydra is a very self-selecting group; therefore, it's hard to talk about it being an advantage/disadvantage in a blanket statement. The people who opt into being in a hydra are probably the ones that feel they would benefit from being in a hydra and know they could do well with that setup. If you know you're not going to be someone that can compromise or deal with someone else's game, then a hydra just isn't an option for you. On average, hydras will do better because of this self-fulfilling prophecy. But to say in principle hydras will always be better isn't true.

For me, this hydra was fulfilling the need of wanting to play and enjoy the game while also not being entirely available to do so. At the beginning of the game, Noraa was busy with exams and would not have been able to play the game whatsoever. For me, I became unavailable around Rakshaka tribe and the beginning of merge. I checked in when I could, but for the most part Noraa was the only player at that time. Point blank, having access to a hydra as an option allowed us to play and I think that point is being forgotten in this advantage/disadvantage discussion. Hydras make playing Survivor (and other LSGs) much more accessible. If we're concerned about filling games and having to pull from spectators due to our games expanding, having that as an option is important. There's no way to minimize the time commitment within the game (other than reducing challenge timeframes) as it's always going to be a game that benefits players that are able to respond at all hours of the day to form connections. But we open access to more players by giving those who can't contribute 100% the option to play.

Now will I say being in a hydra benefitted us? Definitely. Sorry to depart from your points Noraa, but it was very clear to me that having someone I could essentially offload PM'ing to was a godsend for a player like me. I enjoy the social aspect of the game, and that's why I play these, but being able to straight up ignore the game during challenges and pop back in to communicate during tribals was extremely helpful. It reduced my burn out and made it easier to treat people like pieces to maneuver. I also can say us arguing was not a disadvantage. If anything, having someone to challenge your play and consider other alternatives is a huge boon in a game that quickly allows you to tunnel on one option. Having hours of discussions and disagreements forced us to put more time into the game and thus made our play better. Is it impossible for players on their own to do this? Players on their own can sit for hours and plan out various paths and situations. They can question their beliefs and reconsider their options and more time into the game. Again, a game like this will always benefit those that have more time to put into it. Hydras get two times that time and I think therein lies the issue.

I don't want to focus too much on what worked/what didn't in this game. It was one case and every player and player slot is different. We don't nerf challenge threats because they are a challenge threat. We don't try and find ways to take away someone's ability to form connections out of thin air, because some players will always just be better than other players. This game will find a way to deal with that either by taking them out when possible or handing them the win. The issue is you have to limit a hydra's time. The benefit was clear during the times we were both availabie. When Noraa and I would switch off with each other. She'd go to class and I'd log on and shoot off a few PMs. I'd have some work meetings, and she'd be done with class to reply back to people. She went to bed early and I was up pretty late keeping our chatline open. That alone was a gamechanger. In FTC, we'd draft responses simultaneously doubling our response speed allowing us to finish responding before the deadline. We sent them over to each other to confirm we were good with the content, but that's it. A quick review. If the goal of hydras is creating a more accessible game, then this time benefit is what should be nerfed. But I'll leave that to actual moderators to discuss :).
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:29 pm

Post by Mist7676 »

In post 124, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Unpopular opinion here, but imo hydras shouldn't have to swap back and forth on challenges. If they are gonna occupy one slot, treat them like one slot.

If that puts a target on them because it gives them an advantage in challenges then oh well, that's the breaks.
Agreed. I do think they should choose who's competing before hand and not go, "oh fuck a puzzle, vash you're up." But if a hydra wants to be a challenge threat, they should suffer the optics of it.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:25 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 122, Silverclaw wrote:Why are we talking about ID'ing players as if this is a thing that should be weighing into how people play? Because it really shouldn't be.
In an ideal world sure, but people are going to let them affect their game subconsciously and there really isn’t a ton that can be done about that.
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:31 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 128, Shadoweh wrote:Uh anyways my opinion as one member of the hydra in Pantheon that was the least hydra-ey hydra: Just having someone take over every second challenge gave me huge peace of mind. Just days that I could take as a break from Survivor and then come back refreshed for PMing because I wasn't spending the first week of the game playing a board game or two hours cursing Baba Yaga's name. Of course it was an advantage. The hardest thing about Survivor is it takes so much time investment and you have two people's time blocks to work with. In my opinion the winning hydra obviously benefitted from having two people pumping out FTC content as well whereas the other finalist had empty timezones where he was, shock, busy.

TBH I don't know why Pantheon is being used as an example of why its a problem though: Pantheon was a Bastard Game. There was one Hydra on each starting tribe so it was like "representative player for the Tribe with massive advantage twist here". Maybe don't take the player with the massive advantage to the end? Regardless I agree hydras should be used as coaching experiences and people should not pick each other when hydras are allowed, because struggling players don't always know they're the ones that need help. It's something the mods should judge and decide. Run more games like Survivor Legendary with EXP tribe vs Newbie tribe with Coaches.
Both games with hydras implemented this way have been complex, but what sets them aside from previous hydra implementations is how they were presented - as a feature, not as a twist. When you list weird twists from, say, Arkham, you’re going to (probably?) talk about the hydra. When you do that here, you probably aren’t.
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:35 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 129, Klick wrote:I do think there's merit in asking whether the fun of having hydras in games justifies the imbalance though. My answer would be 'probably not', but I dunno, I don't have much stake in that argument.

PEdit: not read that last post yet but Shadow is probably right
To what extent would you consider games having hydras being especially “fun” for the players not in the hydras? The only line I can think of is “it’s fun because it lets more potentially-iconic people play that may not have been able to otherwise”.

(To be clear I’m not saying that it’s more unfun, it seems like the kind of thing that’s incredibly neutral.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:31 pm

Post by Noraa »

Yeah maybe I guess being able to bounce ideas was good. I dont really agree that it's like an amazing thing. Personally, I really didn't take in much of what Mist said just because I was very stubborn about my own beliefs and whatever. I dont see it as a very obvious benefit in this case but I guess I can agree that, overall, its' a pretty strong point.

I mean I do agree that Mist was an easy guess for who would hydra with Noraa but given D3f was the only one that ided Mist and didn't even play ...... that point might as well not exist. Going through confessionals, and Im not even done, I've seen FIVE people say Maat was Noraa now. I have yet to see anyone say EITHER OF US is Mist7676 cuz I haven't seen it.

Also re: Haschie's point, I dont really agree. Like uhhh I didn't know about the hydra rule about challenges. I had thought that we were allowed to switch off whenever we wanted to and my plan was to do most of the challenges and have mist do the important ones where we needed immunity so I kind of see that point being abused. I thought it would be really cool to have immunity the rounds we needed it and just get to do the rest of the challenges myself and flunk them all so I guess its prolly not good to let hydras just do whatever they want because they can do that. Though, admittedly, someone with good challenge performance on their own could also do that so it's not specific to hydras.

Either way, I absolutely agree that every person has their own strengths and those are already unfair "advantages". Nothing is done about that/if you want to argue stuff is being done, there are plenty of hydras that get targeted for being hydras. I think there's not an unfair advantage because in the end, it still depends on the players if they want to go far and not a hydra mechanic.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:31 pm

Post by Noraa »

Oh holy shit its my scum day. I've been on MS for a year. Holy hell
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:12 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

The thing to keep in mind about ID guessing is that a lot of people don’t put all of their ID guesses into the forum itself. I know that generally when I do play, they go in my Discord chat with the mods.
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:34 pm

Post by Shrek »

In post 134, D3f3nd3r wrote:
In post 129, Klick wrote:I do think there's merit in asking whether the fun of having hydras in games justifies the imbalance though. My answer would be 'probably not', but I dunno, I don't have much stake in that argument.

PEdit: not read that last post yet but Shadow is probably right
To what extent would you consider games having hydras being especially “fun” for the players not in the hydras? The only line I can think of is “it’s fun because it lets more potentially-iconic people play that may not have been able to otherwise”.

(To be clear I’m not saying that it’s more unfun, it seems like the kind of thing that’s incredibly neutral.
My experience with hydras is that two people equals more messages to respond to equals more time you have to be online and talk. They haven’t made the game more fun for me one way or the other due to their presence and it’s hard to not see them as an advantage.

I agree that they should be banned fully. I don’t see any real positives to keeping an imbalance like that in.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 pm

Post by kdowns »

I also have to /out unfortunately
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:10 pm

Post by Awoo »

LMAO
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:24 pm

Post by kdowns »

In post 139, kdowns wrote:I also have to /out unfortunately

WHY DID IT POST HERE I WAS IN THE OTHER THREAD.

Im stupid ignore me
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:26 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Well fine, I didn't want to be in a hydra with you anyway.
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:29 pm

Post by PrivateI »

In post 139, kdowns wrote:I also have to /out unfortunately
This is actually my preference for how people should express negativity toward hydras in the future.
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:44 pm

Post by Silverclaw »

I can't believe you'd do this to me, kdowns :(
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:26 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

In post 141, kdowns wrote:
In post 139, kdowns wrote:I also have to /out unfortunately

WHY DID IT POST HERE I WAS IN THE OTHER THREAD.

Im stupid ignore me
Damn hydra heads, always getting in the way of your thread postings.
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