Hydra Discussion Thread

[Silverclaw]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

[Haschel Cedricson]

To take this a little bit further, I've always said that game design should start with a thesis statement and every twist or design choice should advance that thesis in some manner. I don't think mods should throw in hydrae for no reason.

Equestria's thesis was "Friendship Is Magic", so it made sense to allow a single hydra.
Barely Survivor's thesis was, as best I can tell, "cheap and terrible in a way that isn't ACTUALLY cheap and terrible". Hydrae weren't part of the original design but I don't think as implemented they took anything away from it.
KSS specifically wanted to "introduce despair" as their thesis, and surprise latecomers with secrets is on-brand.
Arkham City was basically the game with lots of good ideas thrown in with little consideration to how they all worked together. Thematically Two-Face made sense but ultimately I think Two-Face being a hydra doesn't even crack the Top Ten of wacky things about Arkham.

If a game doesn't have a thesis where hydrae make sense, then they shouldn't be in the game for the sake of having them in the game.

[D3f3nd3r]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

[Skelda]

I would be down with saying that hydrae either add points to a game's complexity or can only be included in games of a certain complexity. I know practically, a lot of times hydrae join games bc specific players request them, like Malkon and Flum in Equestria. But if I joined a Standard or Vanilla game wanting a pure Survivor experience with few twists and a hydra was present, to me that is a significant twist.

[VashtaNeurotic]

Okay there are a couple subjects at play.

Subject 1: Do Hydras Inherently Advantage the players?

I'm not sure that the theory on this is as clear cut as people think. Sure having a partner you can bounce ideas off of is a major bonus. However, if you have 2 people who very much are not on the same page you can have anti synergy that makes the hydra work a lot worse that the sum of its parts, especially if they disagree on literally anything. And while maybe if one head messes up people will still be fine with the other, it can equally be the case that one of the heads (*cough* Malkon *cough*) turns people off more than the other could. Also with challenges being split between heads, you can't just end up with a social and challenge superplayers.

Subject 2: What purpose should Hydras serve?

I really think that Hydras are a really good way to let newer players be able to engage in more Advanced games. I don't think anyone likes the idea of someone new coming in, not knowing what to do, and immediately getting booted learning very little. It isn't fun for the person that got booted and it doesn't help grow the community. I also like them helping out players who are busy but still have a mind for the game as we saw with T&H. Like are people seriously going to argue game without Radja is better for everyone than game with Radja? Lastly, while those other two are pragmatic, hydras kind of sound like a fun time for two people who get along, but that would probably be best saved for a Big Brother all hydra game, since honestly that idea sounds amazing to me.

Subject 3: Are there better ways of handling the problems set up in 2?

On activity, there really isn't, the only question is whether you just prefer that someone who wants to play but is busy not sign up at all. On helping newbies, well Hydras are a lot more flexible than teams/partner twists. Teams and partner twists require you to build an entire game around a mechanic and frankly, that's just not going to happen very often. We can get those occasionally, but yeah no. Meanwhile Hydras can be implemented in most Advanced/Complex games, and since we only get a handful of new players/people with V/LA issues every game it can just cater to that group without having to overhaul an entire game. Not to mention that even with like partners/coaches twists, typically the partner can't see your PMs, and learning how to PM is both a very major aspect of the game and one that is hard to teach without some PMs right in front of you.

Overall I think Hydras are a smart tool to be used in specific situations. Also someone make an all hydra Big Brother game.

[Silverclaw]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

Then you just create a groupchat with both of them and congratulations it's basically the same thing? Feels pointless and clogging.

[D3f3nd3r]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

Then you just create a groupchat with both of them and congratulations it's basically the same thing? Feels pointless and clogging.

And what happens when you have different non-strategy-related conversations with both heads? Feels confusing and clogging.

[xofelf]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

Then you just create a groupchat with both of them and congratulations it's basically the same thing? Feels pointless and clogging.

And what happens when you have different non-strategy-related conversations with both heads? Feels confusing and clogging.

If they're signing their posts, it's exactly like being in a group chat. It's not that bad at all. It's really no different either way.

[Silverclaw]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

Then you just create a groupchat with both of them and congratulations it's basically the same thing? Feels pointless and clogging.

And what happens when you have different non-strategy-related conversations with both heads? Feels confusing and clogging.

That's on the hydras for making conversations difficult, which will just get them voted out faster if they can't stay on one topic.

This however could seriously have repercussions when a player decides to only talk to one hydra and not the other, or does a total stupid and forgets that the two accounts are one hydra [With how often you see people failing basic tasks like PM'ing the right player, this will happen a lot].

[Silverclaw]

FTR, the real problem point for hydras isn't the PM'ing thing, its the burnout thing, because hydras allow one player to take a break from the game for a day to recharge, which is a potential problem moreso than people not liking what is basically groupchats.

[D3f3nd3r]

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Quick note to this - personal opinion here, but unless the hydras are a part of the mechanics of the game, it should be made aware

regardless of the game type.

I'd even take this a step further, and

force hydras to sign or otherwise make it VERY AWARE WHICH HEAD IS CURRENTLY ACTIVE.

I didn't force this in Barely Survivor, each hydra came to that decision on their own and I think it's very important for clarity reasons.

I mean I do also feel like there should've been different accounts for each of the two heads of the hydras.

Then you just create a groupchat with both of them and congratulations it's basically the same thing? Feels pointless and clogging.

And what happens when you have different non-strategy-related conversations with both heads? Feels confusing and clogging.

If they're signing their posts, it's exactly like being in a group chat. It's not that bad at all. It's really no different either way.

I think the reason I'm weirded out here is like, if this was a non-anon game and you were on a tribe with a hydra, you would never attempt to reach out to either head individually?

[Snakes]

Right, let's explore this mechanic. Here are the games that have featured hydrae:

Arkham City:

Two-Face

Killing School Semester:

Korekiyo and Toko

Equestria:

Flim and Flam

Barely Survivor:

Tortoise/Hare, Droids, Lindsay Lohan

All four games handled this in very different ways.

Arkham City had it as a surprise hydra; the players were unaware that hydras were a possibility. It was done almost 100% for flavor reasons (mods can correct me if I'm wrong here. Killing School Semester still had them as surprise hydra but treated them like different players; the hydrae were introduced after the game had already started and entered the game late as "transfer students". This gave players an indication that *something* was potentially up with them, and the character choices were hints that more than one player might be behind the wheel. This was always an intended mechanic; it was planned that there would be hydras in the game before KSS went into signups.

Equestria was different; there was no mechanical reason for Flim and Flam to be a hydra. What happened was Malkon and Flum both came to me and said that neither one really wanted to play a full game by themselves but asked if they would be able to hydra. The idea amused me so I agreed on the condition that I got to pick their character, and I gave them Flim and Flam as a clue to the players.

Finally, Barely Survivor allowed hydrae as an afterthought but before signups completed. It was publicly known that hydrae would be in the game and furthermore they were intentionally flagged as such by virtue of having "X and Y" names. This allowed players to know exactly what they were dealing with.

All of these games were either Advanced or Complex on the rating scale. In terms of which games should have them I would say that they should probably never be in a Vanilla game and used extremely sparingly in a Standard. If it IS a standard game then they should be limited in number and also expressly flagged out as such to the players.

Zack & Cody from Disney were a hydra too, right?

Overall, I would say that being in a hydra gives you an advantage. Sure, it can go wrong if the two heads aren't on the same page, but in a game like Survivor, it is so beneficial to have someone you can bounce ideas off of and get advice from who you know is never going to betray you.

[xRECKONERx]

I'm not sure that the theory on this is as clear cut as people think. Sure having a partner you can bounce ideas off of is a major bonus. However, if you have 2 people who very much are not on the same page you can have anti synergy that makes the hydra work a lot worse that the sum of its parts, especially if they disagree on literally anything. And while maybe if one head messes up people will still be fine with the other, it can equally be the case that one of the heads (*cough* Malkon *cough*) turns people off more than the other could. Also with challenges being split between heads, you can't just end up with a social and challenge superplayers.

I really don't think you should evaluate this in this way. "Well yeah SURE it can be a huge advantage but sometimes if the partners don't get along it's not a huge advantage!" That's not, mechanically, something you can balance for. Similarly, you can't balance a game around "well sure, someone COULD use this item as it's intended to be used... or, the person who gets the item could wind up being a big dumbass and not use it at all!" You cannot balance for the scenarios where things won't be used to their fullest advantage. You have to work under the assumption that they will be utilized.

This is kind of the whole problem.

The sheer advantage of having someone who you know has your best interests/goals in mind and won't lie to you or mislead you... that's

fucking enormous

. It's huge. It gives hydra that one singular advantage over every other player in the game and therefore throws off the balance entirely. There are plenty of other advantages I think hydras get, such as limiting burnout or allowing people to tag out when they need a break whereas solo players can't do it, but they're irrelevant. This one advantage (which isn't even debatable, it's objective fact that it's an advantage) unfairly advantages the game towards hydras vs. solo players.

I am kinda like flabbergasted we're even having this discussion. It's why hydras should've been banned in mafia a long time ago too but nobody took it seriously.
Literally the winner of the game is called the SOLE Survivor? Not really "sole" survivor if multiple people are winning together, is it?

[D3f3nd3r]

(Also mods are always going to attempt to group players together such that they are much more likely than not to get along.)

[Awoo]

FTR, the real problem point for hydras isn't the PM'ing thing, its the burnout thing, because hydras allow one player to take a break from the game for a day to recharge, which is a potential problem moreso than people not liking what is basically groupchats.

Correct. Having Radja take over the end of FTC when I was burned out would have been what won us the game if the vote tied 4-4 and it went to avocado's tiebreaker.

[Awoo]

I think in a way hydras are advantageous for two reasons
1) you have one true ally that will never betray you
and
2) you have two chances.

What I mean by number 2 is that if one head fucks up, people will still give the other head a chance.

Point 2 is incorrect.

Nobody said "Damn, hare screwed up for voting maggie, but tortoise is chill so who cares" or "Damn, whatever droid suggested the bees blindside screwed up, but the other one is fine". One person screws up, it tanks both their games. Because they are a single slot. That's how it works.

[VashtaNeurotic]

I'm not sure that the theory on this is as clear cut as people think. Sure having a partner you can bounce ideas off of is a major bonus. However, if you have 2 people who very much are not on the same page you can have anti synergy that makes the hydra work a lot worse that the sum of its parts, especially if they disagree on literally anything. And while maybe if one head messes up people will still be fine with the other, it can equally be the case that one of the heads (*cough* Malkon *cough*) turns people off more than the other could. Also with challenges being split between heads, you can't just end up with a social and challenge superplayers.

I really don't think you should evaluate this in this way. "Well yeah SURE it can be a huge advantage but sometimes if the partners don't get along it's not a huge advantage!" That's not, mechanically, something you can balance for. Similarly, you can't balance a game around "well sure, someone COULD use this item as it's intended to be used... or, the person who gets the item could wind up being a big dumbass and not use it at all!" You cannot balance for the scenarios where things won't be used to their fullest advantage. You have to work under the assumption that they will be utilized.

This is kind of the whole problem.

The sheer advantage of having someone who you know has your best interests/goals in mind and won't lie to you or mislead you... that's

fucking enormous

. It's huge. It gives hydra that one singular advantage over every other player in the game and therefore throws off the balance entirely. There are plenty of other advantages I think hydras get, such as limiting burnout or allowing people to tag out when they need a break whereas solo players can't do it, but they're irrelevant. This one advantage (which isn't even debatable, it's objective fact that it's an advantage) unfairly advantages the game towards hydras vs. solo players.

I am kinda like flabbergasted we're even having this discussion. It's why hydras should've been banned in mafia a long time ago too but nobody took it seriously.
Literally the winner of the game is called the SOLE Survivor? Not really "sole" survivor if multiple people are winning together, is it?

I guess it's fair to say that we need to evaluate the best scenario in terms of hydras, and when they work, they can end up being stronger than either player is capable individually. Even in that case, I'm still fine with it. Firstly, I don't think it advantages them so much that it just makes the game unfair. Like Flim Flam was made up of two winners and yet it didn't break the game, T&H might have won but they literally almost went out mid merge. Also, lots of inherent advantages exist in survivor, experience, activity, challenge ability that advantage certain players, but none of them end up breaking the game. In fact, I think it's best for these to be used in cases where people have significant disadvantages in those areas (well maybe not challenge ability, but the point is still there). After all, Survivor isn't a sport, so I'm more than fine with giving some people a better chance at success if, on balance, it makes the game higher quality and allows more people to play.

I really don't think the sole survivor point really weighs much. Survivor also takes place on an island live over 39 days where people don't have any other concerns. Forum survivor is inherently different from "normal" survivor and allows us to do very different things. Not to mention the game evolves over time, like final 3s, idols and redemption are all changes that have occurred that went against the original "thesis" of the game and yet, are mainstays.

[Noraa]

I think in a way hydras are advantageous for two reasons
1) you have one true ally that will never betray you
and
2) you have two chances.

What I mean by number 2 is that if one head fucks up, people will still give the other head a chance.

Point 2 is incorrect.

Nobody said "Damn, hare screwed up for voting maggie, but tortoise is chill so who cares" or "Damn, whatever droid suggested the bees blindside screwed up, but the other one is fine". One person screws up, it tanks both their games. Because they are a single slot. That's how it works.

yeah maybe not if you mess up badly but if its a small mistake, it is possible

As well as if one member is less liked, they can send the other member for certain things like talking about votes towards the end or ftc.

[xRECKONERx]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

[Awoo]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

lol~ a first timer has very low chances of winning. Pairing them up with someone as opposed to having them play alone increases equality across player slots.

[Skelda]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

I think the debate isn't about whether there is an advantage to playing as a hydra, but about how big the advantage is/if there are enough other benefits of hydras to outweigh that significant disadvantage.

I don't even disagree with you, like my gut is against hydras and I think about all of my worst moments in games and how much better I would have handled them if I wasn't in it alone. Especially Hare passing off his final speech to Tortoise when he was burnt out was a moment where I was like, "Man I would love that to have that option," especially when contrasted with Rey who was clearly also burnt out but had to write a speech herself which ultimately cost her Avo's vote (and maybe other votes as well).

A lot of Survivor twists are about deciding what degree of "unfairness" we are willing to accept in order for the betterment of the overall game though, and I don't really view hydras any differently.

[xRECKONERx]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

lol~ a first timer has very low chances of winning. Pairing them up with someone as opposed to having them play alone increases equality across player slots.

Yes, a first-timer has a low chance of winning. That's because learning how to play these types of games takes time and experience to learn, so when you do get better and play well and get far. A first-timer should almost always lose to experienced players in every game that isn't Mario Party. LSGs aren't Mario Party.

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

I think the debate isn't about whether there is an advantage to playing as a hydra, but about how big the advantage is/if there are enough other benefits of hydras to outweigh that significant disadvantage.

I don't even disagree with you, like my gut is against hydras and I think about all of my worst moments in games and how much better I would have handled them if I wasn't in it alone. Especially Hare passing off his final speech to Tortoise when he was burnt out was a moment where I was like, "Man I would love that to have that option," especially when contrasted with Rey who was clearly also burnt out but had to write a speech herself which ultimately cost her Avo's vote (and maybe other votes as well).

A lot of Survivor twists are about deciding what degree of "unfairness" we are willing to accept in order for the betterment of the overall game though, and I don't really view hydras any differently.

I think hydras fundamentally upset the nature of the game. Like to the point where if hydras become commonplace there's a 0% chance I would play LSGs ever again even if I had time. Yes there are twists in the game, the thing is all players are reacting to twists equally on the same footing. Hydras being in the game is inherently just one side has an advantage period the end and it has nothing to do with how the game unfolds, it's just straight up a starting point of unfairness.

[Awoo]

Counterpoint: Immunity idols and items are secret. Hydras, except in a few games where they were the tricky twist, are public knowledge.

You can intentionally vote out hydras so they don't get to FTC. It's literally that easy. Treat them like any other jury threat and don't give them the option to trade off writing speeches. Choosing who you want at the end is a known mechanic in survivor.

[xRECKONERx]

Counterpoint: Immunity idols and items are secret. Hydras, except in a few games where they were the tricky twist, are public knowledge.

You can intentionally vote out hydras so they don't get to FTC. It's literally that easy. Treat them like any other jury threat and don't give them the option to trade off writing speeches. Choosing who you want at the end is a known mechanic in survivor.

You are incapable of seeing why idols (something available to all players) and twists (something that equally affects all players) are different from starting from a place of inequality, yes?

I believe I'm done here then.

[Awoo]

Did you just say twists equally affect all players