Large Social Game Guidelines

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Large Social Game Guidelines

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:20 pm

Post by PrivateI »

It's your trusty LSG Listmod team, here with an exciting update!

While MS site rules are robust, and discussion rules generally guide our conduct expectations for Large Social Games, there are some specific guidelines that have generally been informal, or repeated from game to game and never formally codified. We will be in the process of changing that in the coming months, but until then, here's a teaser rule, which will be effective immediately:

In the past, game moderators have, on occasion, honoured the wishes of players who wished to conceal their identities after a game ended. Going forward, all forum identities for all anonymous games will be revealed at a game's conclusion during the live reveal. We may allow exceptions, but this will be on a very rare, very limited, case-by-case basis with input from all listmods.


We welcome feedback for things you would like to see us include in an LSG-specific ruleset. One thing to remember--these rules are NOT expected to take the place of the Forum Rules or the Community Guidelines, simply to supplement them with concerns specific to the Large Social Games.

We look forward to hearing from you.

The Social Games Listmod Team

Update: We will keep an ongoing list of new rules in this space.

Hydras1. Hydras should be known to players. Both in signups and in the game itself, players should know that hydras exist, how many there will be and who they are. "Bastard" games, as always, usually involve some fundamental break in the rules, and hydras could be a part of that.
2. Hydra pairings must be approved by the listmod in charge for games where they're included, and priority will be given to hydras where at least one player directly benefits from the pairing due to experience or scheduling.
3. A game with hydras will automatically be classified as higher than Standard, in addition to the disclosure rules otherwise noted.
4. Hydras must alternate challenges. Before the game begins, if possible, hydras must decide which head will compete in the first challenge, and must alternate thereafter. Sit-outs from a challenge do not count as competing in the challenge. Any scheduling issues with a specific challenge will result in the normal substitution rules for any player, but under no circumstances should the other hydra head perform as the substitute. Additionally, a player that has a substitute in a challenge will still be responsible for competing in the next challenge they're able to--alternation will not resume until the player in question competes in a challenge.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:23 pm

Post by xofelf »

Keep in mind, while we love suggestions, we may not take every one that you give us. Thanks <3
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:27 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

I approve.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:37 pm

Post by Silverclaw »

I'm a little bit concerned about this, actually. I do think it's important to take people's preferences into account when it comes to this kind of thing, and here's why:

1) I feel like live reveals should be treated as more of a "fun moment to end the game with" thing, more of an "if" than a "when" if you don't mind. Yes, just because its tradition on MS to reveal everyone identities doesn't mean it's always going to happen. Maybe a bunch of people from off site decide to host a game on MS again or something, as an example.

1b) If the situation arises where it may become mandatory, then we're running the risk of people not asking for it by doing this.

2) What happens if a list mod is playing in the game and this discussion needs to happen? Isn't that unfair to some extent?

3) This is really assuming that everyone knows there's going to be a reveal. Frankly put that's never going to happen, because I sent out the most well thought out and detailed "Welcome to the game" PMs for players EVER and we still had a small handful of people confused on even the basics, let alone the fact that we do live reveals.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:43 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 3, Silverclaw wrote:I'm a little bit concerned about this, actually. I do think it's important to take people's preferences into account when it comes to this kind of thing, and here's why:

1) I feel like live reveals should be treated as more of a "fun moment to end the game with" thing, more of an "if" than a "when" if you don't mind. Yes, just because its tradition on MS to reveal everyone identities doesn't mean it's always going to happen. Maybe a bunch of people from off site decide to host a game on MS again or something, as an example.
It's only a "when" when there's a reason you don't want your ID revealed. I think the most prevalent case where this happens is when a player is excessively toxic, which is already a problem (as we just talked about on Discord). Considering we seem to be one of incredibly few communities that even plays anon games I wouldn't expect a group of fully new (and experienced, as required by the rules to mod a game) mods to come in and mod an anonymous game.
2) What happens if a list mod is playing in the game and this discussion needs to happen? Isn't that unfair to some extent?
Presumably we trust the other two listmods to make the decision in this case? I don't see a problem with this?
3) This is really assuming that everyone knows there's going to be a reveal. Frankly put that's never going to happen, because I sent out the most well thought out and detailed "Welcome to the game" PMs for players EVER and we still had a small handful of people confused on even the basics, let alone the fact that we do live reveals.
Every game onsite has had IDs revealed at the end of it. Maybe adding a disclaimer about this at the start of the game is fine; "I didn't read the rules oopsie" isn't a valid excuse for someone to be toxic.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:47 pm

Post by Silverclaw »

If you're assuming someone is going to hide their ID after because they were being toxic then the mods need to check themselves because that's NOT a valid reason to hide someone's identity.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:54 pm

Post by PrivateI »

As a note--this discussion between listmods would happen in between jury votes being cast and the live reveal (I am looking historically, and have only found one game that had no such "break" in between the deadline and the results). If absolutely necessary to preserve anonymity until the reveal (because a listmod was a juror, for example, and the person seeking to preserve their identity was a finalist), the decision would be made by all available listmods.

Also, part of the goal of this is to codify those things that have been a "given" in our large social games. One of those "givens" has been a live reveal at the end of every anonymous game I'm aware of--we're simply codifying that a reveal of some kind will happen, even if it's just a single post with all player identities, and that those reveals will include all players.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:24 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

RE discussion on discord, perhaps the rule could be presented as something like:

"In the past, game moderators have, on occasion, honoured the wishes of players who wished to conceal their identities after a game ended. Going forward, all forum identities for all anonymous games will be revealed at a game's conclusion during the live reveal. Exceptions may be allowed on a case-by-case basis with input from the game moderators and listmods."
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:08 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

Unless this becomes retroactive, I don't see the point.

(But I also don't see the point in wanting your identity not revealed)
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:54 pm

Post by Aronis »

This is a minor suggestion: but I'd love to see the player count included in the game's signup post. I'd also love it if there was a rough eta given on how long it'll last/when it'll end
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:03 am

Post by PrivateI »

Friends,

We're excited to unveil the first set of rules--this one deals with hydras specifically. Let us know if you have any questions.

1. Hydras should be known to players. Both in signups and in the game itself, players should know that hydras exist, and who they are. "Bastard" games, as always, usually involve some fundamental break in the rules, and hydras could be a part of that.
2. Hydra pairings must be approved by the listmod in charge for games where they're included, and priority will be given to hydras where at least one player directly benefits from the pairing due to experience or scheduling.
3. A game with hydras will automatically be classified as higher than Standard, in addition to the disclosure rules otherwise noted.
4. Hydras must alternate challenges. Before the game begins, if possible, hydras must decide which head will compete in the first challenge, and must alternate thereafter. Sit-outs from a challenge do not count as competing in the challenge. Any scheduling issues with a specific challenge will result in the normal substitution rules for any player, but under no circumstances should the other hydra head perform as the substitute. Additionally, a player that has a substitute in a challenge will still be responsible for competing in the next challenge they're able to--alternation will not resume until the player in question competes in a challenge.


You might notice that we mention Bastard games in these rules--look for more to come outlining our differentiation of Complex vs. Bastard games in the future.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:14 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Good rules I think (given that hydras aren’t likely to get yeeted into the sun as they should be)

One other thing I’d like to see addressed, could we require that game mods specify the maximum number of hydras that will be allowed in their game at the start of signups?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:24 am

Post by PrivateI »

In post 11, D3f3nd3r wrote:Good rules I think (given that hydras aren’t likely to get yeeted into the sun as they should be)

One other thing I’d like to see addressed, could we require that game mods specify the maximum number of hydras that will be allowed in their game at the start of signups?
This was implied in the original rule, but yeah, I'm happy to formalize that.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:38 am

Post by xofelf »

It's more hydras can have their space, but should be upfront about it so people who don't want to engage with them, do not have to.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:49 am

Post by Dannflor »

These seem like good rules!
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:56 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 13, xofelf wrote:It's more hydras can have their space, but should be upfront about it so people who don't want to engage with them, do not have to.
Not sure if I’m reading this properly but are you disagreeing with Monty’s statement in the post above yours that declaring the maximum number of hydras allowed in a game beforehand is good?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:58 am

Post by xofelf »

Oh, no. Sorry, I'm like.... super tired and words are hard. What I'm saying is, since we're not yeeting hydras into the sun, we're making rules to make it so people who don't want to have to engage with hydras, aren't surprise by them being there and how many there are. I agree fully with what Monty has said. Should have quoted your post i was responding to.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:58 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

I like these rules mostly but I have a question about this one.
In post 10, PrivateI wrote: 4. Hydras must alternate challenges. Before the game begins, if possible, hydras must decide which head will compete in the first challenge, and must alternate thereafter. Sit-outs from a challenge do not count as competing in the challenge. Any scheduling issues with a specific challenge will result in the normal substitution rules for any player, but under no circumstances should the other hydra head perform as the substitute. Additionally, a player that has a substitute in a challenge will still be responsible for competing in the next challenge they're able to--alternation will not resume until the player in question competes in a challenge.[/area]
So let's say we have Hydra Head A and B, and it's B's turn to do a challenge, something comes up and a sub does it. B still has to do the next challenge right? So let's say the next challenge is semi-live, the tribe has to work together and B has a bad schedule/timezone so they don't compete, and since it's a semi-live tribal challenge, no substitue is called. Finally in the next challenge B is able to compete, and then do. Then and only then A would be free to compete in a challenge, even if they were available in all of the other instances, right? Or am I misreading.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:07 am

Post by Cephrir »

I believe you are correct.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:19 am

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Why couldn’t A do the one after the semi-live challenge? B was on the active roster for the challenge, they just de facto submitted a score of zero.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:21 am

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Is sitting out of a challenge explicitly defined as being an official thing that happens because tribe sizes are unequal (or a challenge explicitly requires being run with X people) or does it also include not taking part in a semi-live challenge that you could theoretically take part in because you’re not available when your tribe opts to do the challenge? My guess is that it does not considering a lot of those challenges do have some sort of pre-start-time prepwork/strategizing that happens.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:24 am

Post by Cephrir »

In post 19, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Why couldn’t A do the one after the semi-live challenge? B was on the active roster for the challenge, they just de facto submitted a score of zero.
Oh, you right.

I was understanding Vash's example as meaning they sat out. If the hydra submitted a score of 0 or was counted among the tribe but just didn't help with a semi-live challenge, I would think that would count as participation.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

For the record the implication would be something like "Figure it Out" where you just have however many tribe players show up. How to count those challenges is hard to tell.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:33 am

Post by VashtaNeurotic »

Okay, so not showing up to a semi-live challenge still counts as participating since it affects your tribe, similar to submitting a 0 for a challenge. In that case it seems good to me. The only case I think that fails to work would be if only 5/7 of a tribe are asked to show up, and 5 do show up, but not the hydra head.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:39 am

Post by Cephrir »

In post 23, VashtaNeurotic wrote:The only case I think that fails to work would be if only 5/7 of a tribe are asked to show up, and 5 do show up, but not the hydra head.
If I'm understanding this right, I would think it'd be the same as sitting out.
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