Let's Study Games - Redemption Mechanics

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Let's Study Games - Redemption Mechanics

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:44 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

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Hello, and welcome to the first installment of Let's Study Games, a series that I hope to run monthly. The goal of this series is to look at various design choices that we have seen in our LSGs and determine the advantages and disadvantages they have for the players, the moderators, and the community as a whole. By necessity we will be looking at past games through a critical eye, but we do so in hopes of improving games in the future. There are no "wrong answers" in these threads, so don't be afraid to give an opinion that goes against the grain.

For our first thread, we are going to be looking at Redemption Mechanics. Over the course of MS history these have been implemented in a whole bunch of different ways, with varying degrees of success. Eventually we will look at each one of these in depth, but for now to start the discussion off I pose this question to the community:

What is the purpose of Redemption Mechanics? What do they add to the game? Does this answer change if you are a player, a moderator, or a spectator?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:46 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

For me personally, the ideal use of a redemption mechanic is when somebody who went out early gets a chance to reflect on why they were booted and try again. In an environment where going home early means waiting at least two months to try again, it can increase engagement for those players. This is doubly so when newer players tend to be the ones who go home fast.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:13 pm

Post by MURDERCAT »

Ego, excited for this thread
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:18 pm

Post by Skelda »

I'm opposed to most redemption mechanics I've seen. The best use of redemption mechanics was definitely Barely Survivor though. All of the returnees were premerge, and there were a large enough number of returnees to give them all legitimacy and a real chance at winning the game. People were also being eliminated in wacky ways to begin with, so the fact that they returned felt more fair.

Basically, in Survivor, one of the main goals (if not the main goal) of the game is to avoid being voted out. I don't see a way for returnee twists to exist without undermining that goal, and insofar as that's the case, in my mind they fundamentally go against the spirit of the game.

I have other issues with them as well, namely that returnees enter the game with little to no chance to win in many instances which isn't fun for mods, specs, Jurors, other players, or the returnees themselves, and that players find it unpleasant to be voted out and then be forced to linger knowing their odds of returning are slim and their odds of winning if they do return slimmer, among other things. I also have narrative issues with them from a spec's point of view. We can maybe discuss those problems as well if people want, but my biggest issue is that they go against the most basic element of Survivor as a game and in my mind break part of the formula that makes Survivor so compelling in the first place.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:19 pm

Post by tris »

i think redemption can be good if done right. i think it was used well in Barely Survivor for example, mostly... . in that game, it allowed for that crazy 6 player elimination to happen without actually immediately removing 6 people. It allowed for people who wouldn't normally be first boot in a larger tribe, to have a chance. also, the big brother format made it so that the players who were eliminated later were given some leverage to mitigate the disadvantage of coming in later. i did not enjoy having to meet everyone all at once at the shipwreck though.

i understand that sometimes, redemption is going to reintroduce a player who, having failed earlier, might not be a player who is likely to win. i think redemption should only be used if it fits well with the design of the game like in Barely Survivor taking into account the possible downsides.

note: i was a returnee in Barely Survivor who might be biased lol.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:31 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 1, Haschel Cedricson wrote:For me personally, the ideal use of a redemption mechanic is when somebody who went out early gets a chance to reflect on why they were booted and try again. In an environment where going home early means waiting at least two months to try again, it can increase engagement for those players. This is doubly so when newer players tend to be the ones who go home fast.
I definitely would not say that returnee twists increase engagement just because they result in the unfortunate situation where tons of people are technically still in the game but aren't invested because they know that they've most likely already lost. That situation to me is the opposite of engaging. And then for the few people who return, they still know that they probably can't win and so aren't as engaged as they otherwise might have been. Shouldn't we want our new players who go early to get to experience a proper game instead of this overly drawn out, demoralizing experience?

And regardless, I will note that I can't think of an instance where a new player was voted out, returned, and then had a serious impact on the game once they came back. This is something that sounds good in theory, but hasn't really played out. There may be exceptions, but this twist has at this point of proven track record of flopping. Most often people are returning to be eliminated in a few rounds anyway since everyone else has had time to forge bonds with one another.

And finally, what is the alternative for new players who go home early? Gone are the days of there being a prejury forum in which eliminated players are forced to languish until the live reveal. We allow players who go home early to spectate now. In most instances, I would argue that spectating will be more valuable and more engaging for players than sitting on a Redemption Island for 5 rounds playing a halfhearted version of Survivor only to most likely not return anyway or to immediately go home again if they do.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:39 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 4, tris wrote:i think redemption can be good if done right. i think it was used well in Barely Survivor for example, mostly... . in that game, it allowed for that crazy 6 player elimination to happen without actually immediately removing 6 people. It allowed for people who wouldn't normally be first boot in a larger tribe, to have a chance. also, the big brother format made it so that the players who were eliminated later were given some leverage to mitigate the disadvantage of coming in later. i did not enjoy having to meet everyone all at once at the shipwreck though.

i understand that sometimes, redemption is going to reintroduce a player who, having failed earlier, might not be a player who is likely to win. i think redemption should only be used if it fits well with the design of the game like in Barely Survivor taking into account the possible downsides.

note: i was a returnee in Barely Survivor who might be biased lol.
I think that Barely Survivor is the best use of the returnee mechanic that the site has ever seen, but also it's not a standard situation because by its very nature it pushed the limits of what a game of Survivor is. With that said, if there's a game that made it work, it's definitely that one.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:43 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

In post 5, Skelda wrote:And finally, what is the alternative for new players who go home early? Gone are the days of there being a prejury forum in which eliminated players are forced to languish until the live reveal. We allow players who go home early to spectate now. In most instances, I would argue that spectating will be more valuable and more engaging for players than sitting on a Redemption Island for 5 rounds playing a halfhearted version of Survivor only to most likely not return anyway or to immediately go home again if they do.
This is a very good point.

I think your first paragraph is oversimplifying a bit, though. Dark Rey came very close to winning Barely Survivor. Both Star Sapphire and Abraham Lincoln had tangible impacts on Arkham City after returning at the merge, with the latter having a reasonable shot of winning the game if not for leaving at F5.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 7, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 5, Skelda wrote:And finally, what is the alternative for new players who go home early? Gone are the days of there being a prejury forum in which eliminated players are forced to languish until the live reveal. We allow players who go home early to spectate now. In most instances, I would argue that spectating will be more valuable and more engaging for players than sitting on a Redemption Island for 5 rounds playing a halfhearted version of Survivor only to most likely not return anyway or to immediately go home again if they do.
This is a very good point.

I think your first paragraph is oversimplifying a bit, though. Dark Rey came very close to winning Barely Survivor. Both Star Sapphire and Abraham Lincoln had tangible impacts on Arkham City after returning at the merge, with the latter having a reasonable shot of winning the game if not for leaving at F5.
Considering that tris had already made an FTC before Barely Survivor, I wouldn't consider her a new player (which is what I was specifically talking about in my response). And I've already said that I think Barely Survivor is a bit of an outlier here and not really an example of what I'm talking about.

Arkham City was before my time unfortunately and I have no knowledge of it so I can't comment on that. But the fact that you're having to go that far back to find an example of this twist working is extremely revealing. This is a twist that has been tried quite a few times since I started playing in 2016, and it has very consistently flopped during that time. The juice is just not worth the squeeze on this one.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:59 pm

Post by Silverclaw »

OKAY I'M HERE.

I'd like to go into Barely Survivor's Returnee twists (particularly the Hole) and what each of them were, what mechanics they introduced, and why they worked so well to me:


The Hole had 6 people in it from start to finish and started with a double-elimination round. This was both to keep numbers at 6, and to force communication. I think this worked about as well as it could have, given we just thrust 6 people into a secret tribe. It was very likely that someone would get in the crossfire, so there was a little bit of playing the people who were on the other side of the vote to be favourable to you. This basically worked as well as I could have wanted it to, everything considered.

But the real shining star here is
Big Brother: Hole
, which was actually our take on how to 'fix' large RIs. There are a few problems we had with a large, steady RI like this, but the important one is that anyone who comes in late is at an inherent disadvantage. Being penalized for literally doing what the game wants you to do is no fun at all and is generally pretty miserable. So how do you fix that? By giving a reason to talk to, interact with, and work with the new players. It doesn't matter
how
this is achieved, but it needs to be achieved. We decided on Big Brother because it was an easily adaptable format that worked with our general theme of controlled, fake chaos. But I'm sure there are more ways to introduce a similar mechanic and maintain the very survivor-like nature of the game if you tried to think enough!

I also really liked being able to insert an outcast tribe into the game as well for a few rounds. It gave people a hint of "what to expect going forward", and then dumping all of them off into a Shipwreck ensured that a few of them would survive into new tribes and also make sure they had a chance to properly meet EVERYONE, so they couldn't be singled out easily for not talking to people.

I don't think it was any specific singular mechanic that made the Hole a particularly amazing RI, but how they all worked together to make RI less of a problematic process by removing as many faults as possible while buffing its strengths.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:03 pm

Post by Dannflor »

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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:07 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Silverclaw, can you speak a little bit as to the specifics of what your goals were as far as having redemption mechanics in the first place?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:14 pm

Post by Silverclaw »

In post 11, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Silverclaw, can you speak a little bit as to the specifics of what your goals were as far as having redemption mechanics in the first place?
Well really, I wanted a game that would take as long as physically possible, so we had time for others to finish making their games because oops no games in the queue. My main design goal was to have a game that went long without feeling like it was dragging on forever? Redemption helps with that, because Redemptions happen in secret.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:26 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

In post 8, Skelda wrote:
In post 7, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 5, Skelda wrote:And finally, what is the alternative for new players who go home early? Gone are the days of there being a prejury forum in which eliminated players are forced to languish until the live reveal. We allow players who go home early to spectate now. In most instances, I would argue that spectating will be more valuable and more engaging for players than sitting on a Redemption Island for 5 rounds playing a halfhearted version of Survivor only to most likely not return anyway or to immediately go home again if they do.
This is a very good point.

I think your first paragraph is oversimplifying a bit, though. Dark Rey came very close to winning Barely Survivor. Both Star Sapphire and Abraham Lincoln had tangible impacts on Arkham City after returning at the merge, with the latter having a reasonable shot of winning the game if not for leaving at F5.
Considering that tris had already made an FTC before Barely Survivor, I wouldn't consider her a new player (which is what I was specifically talking about in my response). And I've already said that I think Barely Survivor is a bit of an outlier here and not really an example of what I'm talking about.

Arkham City was before my time unfortunately and I have no knowledge of it so I can't comment on that. But the fact that you're having to go that far back to find an example of this twist working is extremely revealing. This is a twist that has been tried quite a few times since I started playing in 2016, and it has very consistently flopped during that time. The juice is just not worth the squeeze on this one.
I know part of the problem with this is that we had very few games with returnees between Arkham City and recently. To the best of my knowledge, only seven games since then (summer 2015) have had returnees: Civilization, RtC, KSS, Equestria, PCW, Barely Survivor, and Of The Fittest. For comparison, it happened in nearly as many games in a ten-game span in 2011-2013 (Destiny Islands, Seafoam, Mass Effect, Arkham Asylum, and Greece). At some point tomorrow I'll go through site history and run through the actual returnee mechanic used in each game that's seen returnees.

Spoiler: List of Survivor games with returnees, to the best of my knowledge (40 total anonymous games in this timeframe)
Destiny Islands (Fall 2011)
Seafoam Islands (Winter 2012)
Mass Effect (Spring 2013)
Arkham Asylum (Summer 2013)
hi xof : )

Greece (Fall 2013)
Hogwarts (Summer 2014)
Doctor Who (Fall 2014)
Arkham City (Summer 2015)
Civilization (Summer 2017)
Reverse the Curse (Summer 2018)
Killing School Semester (Fall 2018)
Equestria (Spring 2019)
Power vs. Courage vs. Wisdom (Spring 2020)
Barely Survivor (Winter 2021)
Survivor Of The Fittest (Spring 2021)

EDIT: Equestria, Hogwarts, RtC, KSS, and Destiny Islands existed
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:33 pm

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Rick and Morty had a returnee as well, and so did Hogwarts (I think?) and maybe Conclave.

I really liked the way Civ did it (also that was four years ago??). with the social element still a huge element. I guess one quibble/discussion point I'd have is that I wish we let players know there was a returnee mechanic before it happened. Returnees haven't been disclosed, as far as I know, for almost any game we've had on site, and I think disclosure can bring about some additional gameplay elements.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:50 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

I also think it's worth mentioning the Survivormeets; two of which have had Redemption. I think it's incredibly important that live games have that element because people are spending actual time and money to travel to those events. Even if we accept the premise of returnees can't win, the benefits of continued participation 100% outweigh those concerns.

EDIT: Reverse the Curse also had a returnee.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:03 pm

Post by D3f3nd3r »

Conclave did not, but the other two did. Will add those to the list, sorry! I’m not looking to include non-Survivors on this list.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:56 pm

Post by Cephrir »

Skelda's first post pretty much nailed my opinion. That said, there have been some returnees that have impacted the game, and I do think if we continue to do returnee twists one will eventually win, as Grogu was probably one immunity away. I also returned in Greece (easy to forget as I was not out for long) and like, probably had a chance at winning until I started talking at FTC, but I think juries didn't hate returnees as much back then.

I do think we've thoroughly explored the design space at this point and I think I am maybe not super interested in putting them in game designs myself anymore barring some new unique idea.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:16 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

KSS also had a returneee
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:26 pm

Post by Skelda »

In post 15, Haschel Cedricson wrote:I also think it's worth mentioning the Survivormeets; two of which have had Redemption. I think it's incredibly important that live games have that element because people are spending actual time and money to travel to those events. Even if we accept the premise of returnees can't win, the benefits of continued participation 100% outweigh those concerns.
I agree with this. And also I'm not convinced that returnees can't win in a Meet format. I also like returnees in live Discord games, and I'm fine with them continuing to be a thing. And my best win of all time will of course always be my victory as a returnee in 4/20vivor.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:27 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

I feel like returnees in marathon games have had bigger impacts overall on the game than returnees in long term games.

Like Skelda and Kilby both won marathon games after having been voted off/idoled at one point.

I also feel like people should take how the person went out and what they did with their time back in into consideration. For example, in Power/Courage/Wisdom, I feel like I'd have held Mipha in more regard because she technically was idoled out rather than voted out. Did she leave? Sure, but like it wasn't as bad? Now that game I thought had a pretty good returnee mechanic as well and Mipha was 1 vote away from winning that game after making FTC (the 3rd returnee in MS history to do so in a long form game I believe).

So like sure it's easy to say "I'll never vote a returnee" but like I think criteria needs to be taken into consideration, were they truly voted out or just an unfortunate idol victim? How much time did they spend out of the game? What did they do differently to ensure it didn't happen again after they returned?

I just wish this topic was more...willing to be considered in terms of winnability. I know people have a stigma and if the person didn't use their time well after returning I think that's something to take into consideration.

I ranted a lot about this in Survivor of the Fittest but like it just feels super black and white to have the mentality not to give a returnee a valid shot to make a case because you've already decided they shouldn't win simply because they played the mechanic of the game.


To answer the actual question being asked here, I've had to re-evaluate my stance on this because of some of the responses people gave in the spec lounge for Survivor of the Fittest. I'm not sure returnee mechanics should be in play going forward, because enough people have expressed that they will already be in the mindset of not wanting to vote for a returnee, that ultimately it just makes me think the poor person who went through mental hell to get voted out, fight their way back in, and then not win it all just because they are a returnee is just fighting a battle they will never win.

It's a shitty mindset but like, I've seen no evidence to the contrary thus far. Mipha, Monica & Azmodan were the closest three to accomplish this goal thus far since they all made FTC and lost by 1 vote which partially has to do with returnee bias.

So what's the actual point any further?

For me, I guess I'm more open minded and want to know and would care about things that others wouldn't. I just think it's a problem that none of us care for, so why have it at all?
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:38 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

Same question to you, Malkon; when you added a return twist into PvCvW, what were you hoping to gain from the mechanic?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:43 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

In post 21, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Same question to you, Malkon; when you added a return twist into PvCvW, what were you hoping to gain from the mechanic?
The entire point of PCW was to prevent pagongs and keep the game as socially fluid as possible. So the more returnees that came back with the ability to be open minded to new possibilities that weren't locked in based on prior tribal connections since likely they now knew which people screwed them over.

It...had some moments such as with Ancient Oven who returned at merge with a vengeance against the people who voted her out and actually went on to play a great game and went out because an ally didn't want to risk their own game to keep her in.

On the flip side you have Oaki who came in at the same point who just...jumped in bed with the people who voted him out (and then didn't come back at a crucial tc where they would have saved themselves potentially).

Mipha got idoled out at like f12 or f11 I can't recall (different than Ancient Oven and Oaki) and played a very fluid game when she returned that put her in a position to survive some harrowing situations but I feel she was the most "balanced" and willing to do whatever it took to get farther than the prior two returnees.

So in this case, I think the pagong lines from prior tribes that were already blurred, blurred further for 2/3rds of the people who came back.

In that game all three returnees made f9. Oaki got 9th, Ancient Oven I believe got 7th and Mipha got 2nd.

Both Oaki and Ancient Oven were pre-merge boots that returned at merge.

Mipha was a merge boot (2nd or 3rd) and returned at f9 when the returnee mechanic officially ended.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:55 pm

Post by Haschel Cedricson »

I'll say what I was going for with the two returnee twists I designed.

Terra Incognito from Survivor Civilization was ripped off wholesale from Arkham City's Death Row. In the latter game, I as Clock King got my ass handed to me because I didn't know what to do anymore. Death Row served as a wakeup call and if it had not been for the worst Riddler ever I think I would have improved. I wanted to recreate that experience in a game that I knew was going to cast a number of new/nearly-new players.

The School of Friendship from Survivor: Equestria was done in service to the game's overall thesis of "Friendship Is Magic". Here returning to the game meant encouraging people to vote you back in, which led to ultimately a stronger landing for Pinkie Pie. The goal in the game design wasn't "How can we return a player to the game?" but "How can we have a mechanic where friendship is important?"
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Malkon05
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:57 pm

Post by Malkon05 »

I think part of PCW was also is there an EOE format that can realistically work in an LSG format since it wasn't a 1 and done sort of format, but people had lives and ways to gain or lose lives and unless they either directly asked to "quit" or lost all their lives they could continue, and the final challenge to return involved how well they had been able to salvage those lives, but it also contributed based on the fact that it wasn't just 1 returnee but multiple to helping the overall goal of preventing pagongs.

Forgot to mention that.
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