Web of Trust - Game Over

[mykonian]

/in

[mykonian]

give me a pm!!!

[mykonian]

okay. I think I'll pass on the "random trust stage" as it takes to long to get the information we want.

RQS it is: If I was to trust you, would you trust me back?

[mykonian]

Trust Redcoyote

[mykonian]

ABCDE
DEFGH
if ABCDE and DEFGH collapse then
one virus in DE one virus in ABCFGH thus
exclude DE from all consideration
then
exclude scummiest of ABCFGH in third iteration (e.g. A)
if collapse, (e.g.) A included + 4 others

if one of ABCDE and DEFGH collapse
win

so guys, should we start forming an ABCDE?

One scum in ABC and one in FGH = lost.

Post preview edit: I couldn't think of one, Drench. The game isn't broken at first. You could probably prove that it isn't broken, but I'm not that into maths.

But you are right. ABCDE has to be formed at some point.

[mykonian]

Kagelord trusts Wing, who trusts Drench. That makes that kagelord trusts drench. Drench trusts zodiark. Which means Kagelord trusts Zodiark too.

I don't think I want Kagelord in the group of 5.

[mykonian]

Think about it more closely though. Trusting other people doesn't really matter if you're scum. What matters for scum is for people to trust them. It's actually in town's best interest to get a feel around with as many people as possible before we have to make our 5-people webs. How do you propose we do that without first trusting other people? >>

By investigating. You don't vote people to find out if they flip town. You can't untrust.

And this post confirmed my read. Kagelord is trying to talk it straight again.

[mykonian]

Ummm, exactly when did I start trusting Wingless?

when Drench trusted him.

Well, D1 is over

Trust Drench

. I don't think this will work, but it is no longer possible to get a group without Drench and Kagelord. Zodiark is pretty cool though.

[mykonian]

nah, you trust drench, and drench trusts me, so you trust me. Same as with Kagelord.

It's too the other way around. I trust drench, and drench trusts you, so I trust you (and I actually do). I think we are at 5 then.

[mykonian]

trust RedCoyote

trust Zodiark

Mod, could we have prods?

[mykonian]

I'm still not 100% getting the iteration part. Is there a limited number we have? I must be just missing it in the rules.

We have only 4 chances. After that the viruses win.


And I'm not a virus.

[mykonian]

Right now, I'm thinking myk and sak. Myk has trusted every player in the game so far, except sak, so I'm thinking possible distancing attempt there. Everyone else is fairly townish so far.

Right now, we need people to be questioning each others trust for each other, not just wildly trusting each other. Let's throw around a few moral dilemmas or something, as long as we do do something.

Good thinking. I haven't been thinking much about who I trusted. The second round I trusted right away the persons on top of my townlist. The first round I just entered what I knew would be the group of 5. I have only made 2 trusting actions in both rounds, so your results are a bit skewed because I entered as last in the previous round.

What we do need here, is a town consensus. I'm pretty sure I don't want drench in it. He very bravely trusted everybody into the group last round, and knowing drench, that could have been virus-bravoure. Kagelord I'm less convinced on. It could actually be that he didn't know the rules well (which would just be antitown). On this moment, you know my townreads. Everyone else is in the grey zone.

What kind of question do you want? Would you like to answer this:
What is your opinion about starving people?

ah, funny guy. Are you scum?

[mykonian]

nah, myk isn't scum.

I think Kitoari is town, but that is just toying with some maths. It would have been more likely that the web of trust failed if 2 of the active players were viruses then if only one was. Which makes it probably that the inactive player (kito) was town.

Zodiark, why do you keep making the mistake that I only trusted twice yesterday? Your Kito-Myk link is rather insane seen kito's posts, but also since I never trusted the 3 other members of the final web of trust. I "hammered" because I knew I was town (which means it becomes easier to figure out who was the virus there, or, by accident, make the chance bigger that we would win).

TBH, I don't get the mykhate and I would love to see that resolved. Because with my mutual trust with RC (who is a townread of mine), a succesful web of trust is highly unlikely without us. Only in case my read on RC is wrong (which I doubt), you have a small chance this round. I don't want this to be a lost round because people were suddenly convinced I am scum. We can't mislynch here.

[mykonian]

Tasky, who is in need of being replaced?

[mykonian]

I agree, we need more action.

That isn't going to help though.


(prepost edit) I did make a mistake. It is more then symbolic. You split the game. Two webs of trust exist now: Me with RC and Zang, you with Zodiark and Drench. On this moment, they both are completely clashing on reads. No doubt scum are having a lot of fun with this, but the town is devided. Somehow, some way, we have to resolve this. What do you propose?

[mykonian]

A MODEST PROPOSAL:
~Abridged~
Drench and Zodiark trust me, forming a 4 person web.

this doesn't work. This already exists, and these are 3 players

We then fuse with the 3 person web.
We vote to eliminate whoever, in my case probably zang and myk.

nope

???
Profit, hopefully.

So, that is something for next round, probably. How are we going to make sure that this isn't a lost round? This group obviously isn't going to pick up Kagelord. Drench isn't high on our lists either. Zodiark was invited, and still is. You went down on the list recently (this has more to do with following zodiark then your actual reads for me, but Zang is a more direct person). Wing is left, and null.

So, what do you think is a possible 5 player team? I have already posted what I would prefer, but I haven't heard a good one from you.

[mykonian]

damn. Zang said that about Zodiark. Not about you.

[mykonian]

Sorry, made a mistake too. Your group isn't yet a solid web of trust with mutual trust. Most likely because Drench needs prodding.

[mykonian]

So... looks like we're kinda screwed in this game, which is why I'm losing interest.

Town reads: Zodiark and Kit

Scum reads: Zang and myk

Everyone else is in the middle right now.

You are aware that 2 scum is all you need? So, why are we losing?

If you bandwagon, do it smart.

[mykonian]

and sorry Kito, you were right. You would end up with 4, as you'd get Kagelord because Zodiark trusts him. AWESOME.

[mykonian]

uhm, no. If you actually believed that Zang and I were scum (which you obviously don't, because you aren't stupid), this web of trust could be formed:

You
Wing
zodiar
Drench
Kito

This could be done right now. However, you don't. This game is only split in case you assume that of "my" web of trust are town. I'm confident of that. You said you aren't. But you didn't act like it.

[mykonian]

could you give me a definition of active lurking?

[mykonian]

*sigh*

Well, only way we'll know is to try, I suppose.

Trust Kitoari

Am I the only one seeing how KageLord already knows the outcome? And then he play's that he could try anyway. obvscum.

[mykonian]

BUMP.

This game isn't going to finish.

[mykonian]

GREETINGS GENTLEMEN
As your official Advanced Drench Substitute (or ADS for short), I believe that the first point of order is to...

TRUST: Kitoari

And by extension, I auto-trust Wingless, KageLord, and Zodiark13.
That makes 5, and the end of round 2.

The last sentence makes me believe that JDGA doesn't believe this would be the last round.

I wonder, who would be opposed to a grouping with Zodiark, Kitoari, Wingless, RC and mykonian? Those are the players on top of my townlist on this moment.

[mykonian]

Kagelord - zang as scumteam?

But seriously, I'm not really going to listen to your opinions. If there are 5 players that agree on a group, that group will form. If I had to choose, you had very little influence in that.

[mykonian]

*You would have very little influence in that.

[mykonian]

Actually, thinking about it more, maybe: Zodiark, Kitoari, JDGA, RC, Zang?

Same thing again. You are quite eager to place Zang into it as soon as you have to go out. Or maybe you are certain things are going right because JDGA is in that group.

There is the point, btw: why are you excluding yourself if you are town? That really makes no sense. You are trying to look townie, and not actually town.


for JDGA: you bandwagon mindlessly. "lets keep myk and Kage out, as you all think they are scum!".


@Zodiark: is it the fact that I'm in that group?

[mykonian]

very simple, just like in an ordinary scumgame. There is a little more logic involved in this game, as you know for sure that from a failed round, no two of the group of 3 that stayed out can be scum together. Zang can't be scum with RC, with me, or with Kito. etc.

The other things we know is that there are 2 players who have, right from the start, been "very protown", by not selecting themselves as the towniest member. It is the only information you have as town. But both Drench and Kagelord have been very social selecting others. From a town piont of view, this makes no sense. However, from a scum perspective, it seems "protown", while they think they can manipulate the town.

There are some other tells, but another one is just the same as in the normal mafia game. You would never lynch day 1 on page 2 because there has to be a lynch. The defence that you'd need a few groups of trust to fail before you can start the game (drench in a way suggested this), is insane. In a normal game you would scumhunt too, so why not here? I see only a few players doing some scumhunting, and me and zodiark are the most active there. I'm purposefully excluding Kito, since his reads were made after zodiarks scumhunting, and were quite alike zodiarks. However, Kito has shown some independent mind, which JDGA lacks totally in the last post (lets keep myko and Kage out, as everybody seems to think them scummy).



Seriously, I can't understand that people don't see and understand this.

[mykonian]

The problem with this game is that we don't know how many scum are in the Web. If we knew, the game would be a simple game of logic. Our loss I guess.

My point? I really have no idea how to win at this point. I'm not giving up, just I'm saying I have yet to deduce a way of winning that doesn't involve psychoanalyzing every single post for scumtells.

Zodiark, I don't know what your background is, but you can look at it the other way. You know with absolute certainty that there is 0 or 1 scum in the group of players not in the web of trust. No scumpairs in the group that stayed out. Zang, kito and RC can't form a scumpair. Zang, myk and RC can't either. From that point of view, Zang is less likely scum, and if Zang is, JDGA, zodiark, wingless or kagelord has to be his partner.

The game can't be figured out completely, but if we get a next round, the last round we start with quite a bit information.

One thing we want to make sure is that one of RC or Zang gets in the group of 5. Otherwise we learn the same information again. Since Zang is lurking hardcore, and RC is just timid, we should get RC in, I think. Kito's proposition is close enough to my own. I would want to go for that.

trust Kito

.

Can I confince you to take RC in stead of Zang? RC was my earliest townread and Zang hasn't really done a thing.

[mykonian]

I misread. Who are you missing then, kito...

oh, Wingless. I haven't really noticed him. Weird. OK, I fully agree in that case. People staying under the radar are usually a bad sign about them.

[mykonian]

I think JDGA and Kitoari are the wild cards at the moment. I'm completely unsure which way to go with them. That already makes three people though (Kage, JDGA, and Kitoari). If everyone is feeling okay about JDGA though, I think I'd actually prefer excluding Kitoari/Zang/Kage. That's impossible now though (unless Kitoari doesn't trust mykonian).

Trust: Wingless

.

I don't trust JDGA. I don't want Kito and Zang out together in the third round (if it fails, we wouldn't get the same information from round 1 again). Zodiark, feel free to set up the core of the proposals, if you agree with them.

[mykonian]

MASSPROD

[mykonian]

Wait, mykonian, I distinctly remember you saying that between Drench and Kage you were more likely to trust Drench. What happened?

A. I don't trust Drench/JDGA
B. I don't trust Kage

Conclusion, I don't want them both in? I'm afraid that I don't know what you are talking about.

[mykonian]

Apparently, saying that we have three slots to exclude, and therefore we should exclude the three people who are generally considered the most scummy, is in itself scummy.

It is. Voting because the rest of the game thinks someone is scummy is avoiding responsibility. You should think for yourself.

You are sitting out, definately.

[mykonian]

Let me dig it up, because I remember me, you, and Zang talking about Kage and Drench in a previous web.

I know. I have said something like it might be Drench in stead of scum. However, JDGA continues to be scummy, so that is one difference.

What I don't understand it that you seem to think that I suddenly think Kage town?

[mykonian]

hmm, odd.

You are aware that Kito has posted those connections earlier as a possible group of 5 for this round? This was a "hammer" post. Kito seems to be trying to move the game forward, and the only other point against kito is how he first followed your reads almost completely. Other then that, the points against JDGA and Kage are much clearer, one of who you again want in the group of 5. I really don't understand why.

[mykonian]

Kage: Zodiark, Kitoari, JDGA, RC, Zang
Kitoari: Mykonian, RedCoyote, Kitoari, Zodiak13, Zang
Wingless: RC, Zang, Mykonian, Kitoari, Wingless
RC: RC, mykonian, Wingless, JDGA, Zodiark

EBWOP: I find it simultaneously funny and annoying that the only people who responded to my main post were the ones I called scum in it.

Not that I'm not used to it, but I find it annoying you suspect the two most active players of this game. I am pretty sure you are town, but you aren't playing the way you could.

In a way, every point you find is somehow connected to me, and while you missed Kito's single and only scumtell (his buddying to you right into the game), you somehow think he is forcing the town's choice this time. I already said that Kito's proposal was similar enough to mine that I could accept that (I had wingless for Zang, and they are both lurkers) and I supported it. Kage already supported a choice like that on the basis that it would give information the next day (though I don't know if he actually accepted kito's proposal).

Both Wingless and RC only disagree on Kito in the fact that one throws you out, and the other Kito. Both seem to me to be a bad idea, but again, they are pretty close to what Kito proposes. I think your argument is a little flawed.


And the most annoying thing is, that while you now give some reasons (how bad they might be), that Kito is scum, you have never given me such a favor. You truly tunnel on me, as can be seen here. You give reasons why Kito must be scum ... and suddenly I must be his scumpartner! Out of the 5 scenario's you made, suddenly that is the only one that counts.

Only Kage seems to agree with you that I shouldn't be in the group of five, and in later posts he has already agreed with my choice for the group of five. So really, who is trying to force anything here? Stop tunneling and become constructive. We want to win, here or in the next round, and to do that, you need to make a group of five that works. Start constructing one then, and don't blame others for making their choice (and Kito made a well informed one) when nobody else will.

[mykonian]

Not that I'm not used to it, but I find it annoying you suspect the two most active players of this game. I am pretty sure you are town, but you aren't playing the way you could.

Could you sound any more pretentious with this comment if you tried?

I tried very hard

In a way, every point you find is somehow connected to me,

More misrep. Only 3 of my 5 possibilities involve you, and one if them implicates that you are town.

then why in your EBWOP do you only refer to the possibilities with Kito and me?

and while you missed Kito's single and only scumtell (his buddying to you right into the game), you somehow think he is forcing the town's choice this time.

Exactly what the hell are you trying to say here?

that your scumhunting is rather short sighted and that you don't seem to consider things that have happened.

I already said that Kito's proposal was similar enough to mine that I could accept that (I had wingless for Zang, and they are both lurkers) and I supported it.

How like scum to submit a proposal one person different than his scumbuddie.

Just like RC and Wingless, IIRC. Or those four are all townies who are actually on the right track.

Kage already supported a choice like that on the basis that it would give information the next day (though I don't know if he actually accepted kito's proposal).

I was under the assumption that he was referrering to to this:

Zodiark, feel free to set up the core of the proposals, if you agree with them.

Oh well, my bad.

That quote by me was refering to the groups of 5 kito and I were talking about.

Both Wingless and RC only disagree on Kito in the fact that one throws you out, and the other Kito. Both seem to me to be a bad idea, but again, they are pretty close to what Kito proposes. I think your argument is a little flawed.

And these two comments are connected how exactly?

That you seem to think Kito forced the town. He didn't, he was acting on over half the towns general idea. Your argument isn't resembling the truth.

And the most annoying thing is, that while you now give some reasons (how bad they might be), that Kito is scum, you have never given me such a favor. You truly tunnel on me, as can be seen here. You give reasons why Kito must be scum ... and suddenly I must be his scumpartner! Out of the 5 scenario's you made, suddenly that is the only one that counts.

Seems you didn't hear last time I said I have already given my reasons. And I didn't say my chosen scenario is "the only one that counts". I said that I feel it is the most likely one. More misrep. Seriously, three in one post, and four in two, how scummy can you get?

Then, seen the insane amount of quoting you have done in this horrible post, qoute you quote your post where you gave your reasons? I can't find it. And "the most likely one" is just another excuse to keep tunneling.

Only Kage seems to agree with you that I shouldn't be in the group of five, and in later posts he has already agreed with my choice for the group of five. So really, who is trying to force anything here?

Certainly not me. If I was, I would push my chosen scenario by voting for it.

Stop tunneling and become constructive. We want to win, here or in the next round, and to do that, you need to make a group of five that works. Start constructing one then, and don't blame others for making their choice (and Kito made a well informed one) when nobody else will.

You call spur-of-the-moment "well informed"?

It seems like you're dodging my questions by asking your own. How about responding to my previous post before trying to make me look like the scum you are.

Spur-of-the-moment? Seriously!? Kito trusts a group we were talking about a week ago. However, you suddenly scumhunt on the

last

post kito made. You are really making no sense.

[mykonian]

hmm, odd.

You are aware that Kito has posted those connections earlier as a possible group of 5 for this round? This was a "hammer" post. Kito seems to be trying to move the game forward, and the only other point against kito is how he first followed your reads almost completely. Other then that, the points against JDGA and Kage are much clearer, one of who you again want in the group of 5. I really don't understand why.

Kitoari is trying to end the day with as little town consensus as possible, a large scumtell. The low activity is simply justification. JDGA and Kage's inclusion are solely because we cannot make a group without you and Kit without one of them, hence the reason I suggested either one of them.

Didn't know you want a reaction to this. You know my stance on JDGA and Kage. I don't want them in another time. I reacted to the fact that Kito doesn't force our hands, as the consensus is largely obvious from RC's summary of proposed groups. My proposal is missing but I later agreed on Kito's anyway. I feel like I have posted this before... have you read it before too?

The rest is for Kito, as I see it. I'm not scum with kito, I think we are both town, but I'm not as certain of it as I am with RC.

[mykonian]

Do you have access to the QT's that RC could read? Otherwise I might have to copypaste some stuff for you.

[mykonian]

trust Zodiark

I really like him better then Zang.

[mykonian]

seriously, why would you prefer Zang over Zodiark?

anyway, nothing is lost. Zodiark has to trust one of our group to get in. Zang has to do the same, but I think (hope) Zodiark is here before Zang.

mod, could we get some prods?

[mykonian]

Becase Zang has never been inside the web of trust. It serves us best to get information about him by including him in a web this time.

For you to not want to have this information to look back on is very suspicious to me.

FoS: Mykonian

Lady, the only information you get is from the three that stand out. None of them can be scum together. As long as you don't have the same 2 players out of the web, there is no problem. (this is the argument why RC and Zang and kito, or RC, Zang and Me shouldn't stay out together. Nothing stops Zang to be out with Kage or Drench, we'll get new information from that, if this fails)

[mykonian]

However, we can cross reference a hell of a lot MORE if Zang isint on the outside of the web of trust for the third time out of four.

Know that I'm not english, and although I hear it more often "cross reference" isn't in my vocabulary.

And since I can't see how getting Zang in would help us, but could you explain?

[mykonian]

Cross reference means to take two situations and find the commonalities in them.

For example: if the first web, and the second web, both give us information. Things we must know to be true, and other things we can assume are likely to be true. If we compare the two, we can prove certain things to be more likely, than just looking at one. But the less diversity that the groupings have, the less we will learn.

Ok, in that case, try to give an example how you can get more information from 2 totally different groups compared to two groups that have one the same person standing out.

The information is the same, mathematically. And I don't like how Zang plays.

[mykonian]

You are correct in saying the AMOUNT of inforamtion we will get is about the same... However, if we do not put Zang into the WoT this round, we will have NO information on him going into our final web.

So, it's not how much we get, but rather, who we get it on.

And I'd like to see Zang in a WoT.

The other way around. We'll have the most information about Zang. (you only get definate information about the people that are out). Did you even think what information you could get, or are you just talking from a mafia-background?

[mykonian]

tasky was prodded

Time to prove you wrong, Zodiark

[mykonian]

trust Lady

I'm going to put up all my info there asap.

[mykonian]

working on that catch up thread for you, lady.

[mykonian]

You could ask for the links, Tasky should still have them, and you should be able to read the threads RC could read.

[mykonian]

Ok, I blame Zang. Normally Zodiark is more active then him, but on the moment that it matters, Zang is there first.

Lady and Zodiark are town.

BUUUUUUUUMP

[mykonian]

yes, RC was town. He scumhunted, was careful who to trust, and didn't "just do things". The same counts for zodiark, but more on the scumhunting front as being paranoid with him. Which is why they are my best town reads. Kito... I;m wary about him because he essentially copied Zodiarks reads when he replaced in. Scumreads I have explained well enough in thread, I think.

[mykonian]

Zodiark's thoughts are much alike mine. I agree that Wing shouldn't be in, which is 3/7 and enough for me.

So, kage out, Wing out. Who's the last one? Zang would be my choice.

[mykonian]

I know it is mishmash, but could you please not edit your posts Kage?

[mykonian]

replacement?

[mykonian]

Kito, I might be able to help you. Can we talk about something else then this game? it might get the thread a little interesting for you. Well, until Tasky has found a replacement, then the game just has to go on.

Where did you get the idea for your mini theme from?

Or, if you don't like to talk about that because it might players give a hint about it: have you read any good books lately?

[mykonian]

Bump!

[mykonian]

Well, what else can we do?

Seriously, who has read any good books lately? I need something to read and I wouldn't know what to read.

[mykonian]

well no other way to crack it...

trust myk and Lady L

I know lady... This post and the next (where he pronounces that he himself is protown, just as you) aren't convincing. Seriously, why trust in the last round before you have reread?

This is Zang's replacement, right? Zang-Kage still fits. It's very surprising that Kcda does have a gut feeling on JDGA, but completely avoids town's strongest read: Kagelord.

[mykonian]

I believe Zodiark is town. But for all the others I'd like to do a reread. Tomorrow I should have some time for that.

[mykonian]

Lets keep JDGA out, shall we?

[mykonian]

trust Zodiark

This one I'm going to do anyway.

I'm leaving JDGA, and Kage out. I'm still debating between Kcda, Wing and maybe kito.

[mykonian]

I don't trust Wing.

Trust Zodiark

Might as well move this along.

Ok, Kcda, zodiark, lady, myko, kito? That is fine, I think I would be equally disappointed if wing or Kcda won the game as scum.

Is there anyone (in this group) who doesn't agree with this?

[mykonian]

it's the other way around KCD. Zodiark has thought for some time that I was scum. And indeed in the QT's Zodiark was seen as solid protown but wrong.

[mykonian]

So, seen this, Kit can come in and I'm fine with that. After a reread I must say that I'd take Kc over wing. Wing is just our casual lurker, hasn't done any scumhunting. Kcda is putting time in the game, but in actual hunting, not in discussions.

trust Kc

ok, Either I have lost the game there and we should have gone with wing, or we manage to win this after all.

[mykonian]

for some reason I feel better bout myself and the game isnt over yet... we still have to chose one of 4 people to trust provided that your comrades trust me as well.

You want to reread the rules. You are in. (as LL trusts me, everyone I trust is trusted by LL too etc.). We are at a web of trust made of 4 players, and I'm only waiting on kit trusting one of us back, finishing this web of trust, and ending the game.

[mykonian]

We are waiting for kito to accept your invitation, I guess.

[mykonian]

Can we get a massprod?

[mykonian]

ahahaha.wav

It is my belief that the web has already been infiltrated by scum.
Hence, I believe we have already lost.
So, with this belief, I will allow the majority to add anyone else they want to the web.

Wow.

Well, congrats. And to think I was most confident that you were town.

[mykonian]

Tasky or LL: who was your partner?

[mykonian]

I would like to know if we were right about one.

[mykonian]

oh, I'd love to see your notes.

What I want to know most: Zodiark, I'm pretty sure you didn't catch the most obvious scumtell I made: what made you think I was scum?

[mykonian]

I'm not scum. But successful gambit is successful. I just wish it wasn't YOU who showed up first. Would have been more useful to see KageLord react.

But, you're confirmed town now anyway xD

Yeah. That gambit was a little too obvious

[mykonian]

thank you kc you made my day.

[mykonian]

Seriously, I loved the QT's. They formed my only scumtell. The way I used the QT's to buddy up to RC was obvious.