The future of the Mish Mash "Survivor queue"


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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

I would definitely be up for coordinating things with you TBO, to make sure that our games don't clash for people involved in both of them. For example, the merge during your game where there's a bunch of new people for everyone to meet coinciding with a slower point during NAH.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:42 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 22, PrivateI wrote:
In post 19, D3f3nd3r wrote:Three modded plus three played? First-timers can be dangerous, true.

Possibly. Have the next game start taking signups around when the FTC starts, so that that downtime is only a few days. The gaps aren't a problem, but I'd like to avoid them.

Non-anons seems generally more casual. Maybe separate out the anon survivors and have a separate line for other stuff?


With the first point, I would largely disagree. Requiring three modded games between the two mods is a lot. Plus, Game of Thrones wouldn't have happened, and that would be awkward. I would recommend, like I said, just ensuring that it's reviewed before it goes out, and requiring maybe a total of ~45 points or something between the mods, where you get a point for each person you have surpassed. (For example, placing 4th in a 16P game would grant you 12 points. (That's a super simple system, obviously.)

Game of Thrones is a really good counterpoint. We want Game of Thrones to continue to happen. Perhaps something like this would be good, or mandatory reviews for all-new-mod teams.

With the second, the only reason gaps are an issue is because they hold up the queue. I would rather give people the chance to finalize any preparations than to rush a game into production. UNLESS we were going to require players to have the forum/challenges thoroughly designed and fleshed out prior to entering the queue.

I don't think we need to mandate this. Ideally everything should be at least fully designed by the time a game is one game from running, in my opinion. A forum can be whipped up in a couple days if it has to be.

In post 25, CuddlyCaucasian wrote:I would definitely be up for coordinating things with you TBO, to make sure that our games don't clash for people involved in both of them. For example, the merge during your game where there's a bunch of new people for everyone to meet coinciding with a slower point during NAH.


Do we want The Arena to obey whatever we set up here? It might be easier to just grandfather it in and be more organized going forward, but I could see either way. It also depends on how much longer we expect Hyrule to take.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:32 pm

Post by KingdomAces »

Grandfathering just sounds like a bad idea to me. This is the type of question that we are going to have in the future. What is happening now will continue to happen, and we need to be prepared for that. The original Arena was just TBO modding and happened alongside a Survivor, and from what I remember there weren't very many problems. In my opinion, we should try to make a system that allows for this type of game to happen.

What problematic games have even happened recently though? Summertime was a year and a half ago, and Mario was before that. Both of those even still completed. As long as people remember, or at least know of, the Legendary Box, something like that isn't going to happen again. As long as people remember Arkham, people will know to advertise any game that may be bastard as such. If you want to bring up Doctor Who, remember that the mechanics were listed in the thread before signups began.

What we should really be focusing on is the queue itself. How it's going to be organized, and how much needs to be ready before you are able to reserve a slot. That's the real problem we've been having lately. We can play everything else by ear as we always do until there actually comes to be a time where action is actually required.

On that front, here's my suggestion.

A: Before a game can be added to the queue, mods need to have (or submit if we do go with a review system) a general outline of the game. This includes all of the twists that will occur, their timing, and any unique mechanics that will be involved.
B: When the ongoing game arrives at merge, the first game in the queue should have a board set up if necessary, an idea for every challenge, and avatar backgrounds for at the very least the first phase of the game. If it doesn't and the game after it does, then it is brought ahead. If no games in the queue are at this point, then all parties involved are notified and are given another week or so before opening up the slots to games that aren't in the queue yet that are at this point in development.

Having never designed something like this myself, I'm not sure if this is actually sound, or if I may have missed something important.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:12 pm

Post by Cephrir »

Season Finale was problematic!

I think that mandating the mods' schedules that severely is kind of unfun. Things have always ended up getting done in time, have they not? I think some parts of your suggestions are reasonable -- like having something of a design layout ready before entering the queue, which seems like an improvement over people claiming spots on a whim and making something real later -- but I don't think they necessarily need super strict monitoring every step of the way. Perhaps a general "how's it going?" every so often would be reasonable and it's probably a good idea to let games jump ahead if they're more prepared and the mods want to. I doubt the less ready mods would really object to that.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:22 pm

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

I was really just suggesting that TBO and I coordinate to make sure major events didn't happen in both our games at the same time, but not that that should be a requirement or anything!
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:25 pm

Post by animorpherv1 »

Not read much into the thread, but my 2 cents:

In post 2, PrivateI wrote:
- Should there be a minimum number of mods for a game?

Two at least (at least one main, with the other as co-mod or backup), with a maximum of four (at least one of which is "backup").
In post 2, PrivateI wrote: - How much experience should the mods have? (Should they have had to play a total of three games between them? Should they have had to mod one game before? If they have never modded, should the game be reviewed?)

At least one half of the mods (rounding down, and at least one must be a MAIN mod) needs experience. I'd be willing to allow an entire crew of newbies if they've all played in several survivors previous AND gotten it reviewed (and I'm willing to review)
In post 2, PrivateI wrote:- How many games can be in a queue for the same relative time slot at one time?

I'd argue for two at max (if the queue starts to get large and it's around summer time), but one is fine.
In post 2, PrivateI wrote: - Should games have to go through a review process?

See above - for a group with entirely new mods.
In post 2, PrivateI wrote: - What qualifies as a large social game? If I decide to run a 10P Mole, do I need to run it through the queue?

I say 12 at least, but only if it fits the "large game" requirement.
In post 2, PrivateI wrote: - Are there some standards for a game (specifically Survivor) that we could agree to? For example, if we had a set of requirements (a Survivor game should not cross-tribe communication, a game should have at least one way of swapping players prior to the merge, a game should not have a Legendary Box, etc.) that a game must adhere to, or else describe itself as somewhat bastard?

  1. At least twelve players
  2. Compete in challenges
  3. Elimination style format (players leave the game through things like voting dueling, though those are not the ONLY methods)


I feel like that is all that must be included. This is the bare minimum of a Survivor or Big Brother game to function.
In post 2, PrivateI wrote:- How far in advance must games be announced?

One month. A game can be created in under a month with the correct planning and people. This also allows people plenty of time to check their schedules s well.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:32 pm

Post by Shiidaji »

- Are there some standards for a game (specifically Survivor) that we could agree to? For example, if we had a set of requirements (a Survivor game should not cross-tribe communication, a game should have at least one way of swapping players prior to the merge, a game should not have a Legendary Box, etc.) that a game must adhere to, or else describe itself as somewhat bastard?

Survivor is a Mish Mash game on this site. Limiting a moderator's ruleset options would be restrictive and creatively limiting. Players can make educated decisions based off of a game's ruleset as to whether or not they will enjoy the game.

The point of a queue system is to promote game health by encouraging orderly cooperation,
not
to stifle game creators' options. I agree that an organized, maintained list of games coming up is a great idea. Messing with the point of Mish Mash is not.

-

I would like propose that an
optional
review committee be formed of past game moderators. Review would not be a mandatory measure when joining the queue, however, should the game meet the reviewers' standards of approval the prospective moderator can point to the groups' consent as a sign of baseline quality.

It is likely that quite a few of the potential candidates for this type of committee would also wish to participate regularly. This means that a committee would require multiple participants that could each personally opt out of reviewing announced games at their own discretion.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:57 pm

Post by KingdomAces »

I disagree with the part about a committee being formed of past game moderators. Then I wouldn't be able to be part of it. I'm actually being completely serious when I say that I'd probably be in one of the best positions to do this type of thing.

As much as I wouldn't want to stress potential moderators by having deadlines, what is the purpose of having a queue if you are allowed to join it and then back out at the last second, leaving a lot of people behind you that thought they had way more time? I'm not saying we should be forcing people to make games either, if there's nothing in the queue, then that's fine as well. I just think that if there is going to be an official queue, and there is actually multiple games in it, then it's unfair to the people in the back if the people in the front are holding them up by not doing what they said they were going to do. I'm trying to be as lenient as possible here, but if we're just going to go with 'they'll get to it when they get to it', then why does this thread even exist in the first place?

And yes, I should have included two tribe start with no swap in the things that I doubt people will do again.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:10 pm

Post by Shiidaji »

KA <3

In post 32, KingdomAces wrote:I disagree with the part about a committee being formed of past game moderators. Then I wouldn't be able to be part of it. I'm actually being completely serious when I say that I'd probably be in one of the best positions to do this type of thing.

It is an objectively sound criterion for committee consideration!
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

The main thing is like, moderators should only trust the job of reviewing to someone they personally believe will do a good job, and then it's up for potential players to then decide if they trust the judgment of the reviewers.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:20 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

I am not interested in a review panel at this time.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:20 am

Post by Snakes »

I don't really see the need for a review panel. Mods are generally good about being prepared. No game has been abandoned since all the way back in 2012, and the mods have always been ready. Even games that haven't been received well, like Bahamas, had all of their challenges prepared before the game started. If there's a controversial twist, the mods can ask the spectators if they think it's a good idea and then decide if they still want to go through with it. Or they can announce the twist ahead of time, like with Doctor Who, and then it's up to the players if they want to sign up. I don't know how much I like a committee that tells the mods how they should run their own game.

I don't think there should be an experience requirement that is set in stone. A lot of it is a judgment call. Game of Thrones was a very successful game where neither Jal nor Nyalite had previous modding experience, but both had made multiple FTCs and were very respected members of the community. Needing to have a total of three games played between the mods is a good idea, but even with that, simply signing up for a game and then playing until they get voted out doesn't mean they're going to be ready to run their own game.

I think a queue would be a good idea, though. There are a lot of games that people are working on, and it's a little confusing knowing which one is going to run when. Having the schedules be public knowledge and not letting any game jump to the front would be good.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:04 am

Post by Cephrir »

I wish we had a way to measure being a respected member of the community. That honestly might be the most important thing.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:37 am

Post by KingdomAces »

Whether or not you are a respected member of the community relies on how much the community respects you. Humanity has been trying to find the best way to objectify that since the dawn of time, and yet still there is no answer. No matter what the criterion are, people who deserve respect will be left out, and people who don't will be able to find the easy way in.

Do I need to repeat myself? The current issue we are having here is how we are going to determine what games are going to happen when. Would a way to guarantee quality of future games be nice? Definitely. We've been discussing this issue for years though, and nothing ever gets done on that front. On top of that, it's not like anyone actually thinks that something is going to happen if we don't set up a review panel or something similar. We're here to discuss a queue, so let's actually discuss a queue.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:50 am

Post by Cephrir »

Well, I think we're all agreed on the need for one! You're right though, we've gone off on a tangent.
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:29 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

I'm not really sure a separate queue is actually needed, I don't think we spam that much whenever something big happened is the normal thread, if you separate everything out, i think the normal Mish Mash list is just going to be too quiet as most of the posts in there are about survivor.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:23 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

The OP has been updated. The staff is not interested in granting any powers beyond what thread creators can already do, so the mod won't get a specially-colored name like list mods of Mafia games.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:42 am

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

Bc we in mish mash aren't as important to the site as everyone else *cries*
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:55 am

Post by KingdomAces »

Okay, so right now what we need to do is set up the queue. Cuddly/Klick's Names Are Hard is first up, right? Is that ready to go now?

This is from the OP of the game list:
In post 0, CuddlyCaucasian wrote:Arkham City Survivor – 24P (no pre-in slots available), mods: xofelf, Nicholas1024 and ???
Anonymous Survivor game set to destroy your mind in summer 2015
Survivor: 1990s or Denim Island – ?P (unknown if pre-in slots available), mod: Flameaxe
Set to run after Arkham City Survivor
Survivor: ??? – ?P (no pre-in slots available), mods: kloud1516, animorpherv1 and kdowns
Anonymous Pokemon Survivor game; undecided running time

Nappa also said that he wanted to reserve a slot for Dragon Ball Z, and that he was looking for a co-mod. On that note, if we are requiring at least two mods, then Flameaxe will need one as well. Aside from that, the only other game mentioned in the current version of the game list is Hunger Games, which was postponed indefinitely.

If we're not having any strict queue requirements, at the very least we should probably have where in the development cycle each game is listed. The tiers I'm thinking of are: Ready to Run, Close to Finished, In Progress, and Still in Concept Stage. That sound good? Any improvements or flat out better ideas?

PEdit: CC, Coug being a skittle already is more than enough. There really isn't anything else someone could do other than maintain an OP anyway. Zaicon would be made a skittle for his work in the replacement thread well before someone in charge of just overlooking a subset of a subset of the forum.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:18 am

Post by CuddlyCaucasian »

I know, I was just kidding. :P NAH is close to finished, we've got the board designed and all the forums set up. We have all the challenges picked out as well, all we're really working on now is getting the challenges written out.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:44 am

Post by Shiidaji »

Ka wrote:If we're not having any strict queue requirements, at the very least we should probably have where in the development cycle each game is listed. The tiers I'm thinking of are: Ready to Run, Close to Finished, In Progress, and Still in Concept Stage. That sound good? Any improvements or flat out better ideas?

  • In Progress
  • Accepting Applications
  • Ready to Run
  • Under Development


?

Something positive that may come from this separate queue is an easier path for potential newbies to follow, very exciting. As long as the OP is concise and cute and not as alien/unfamiliar as an informal queue must look like to an outsider, fresh meat might feel more inclined to sign up.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:53 am

Post by KingdomAces »

I don't see games that are ongoing or accepting applications to be part of the queue. By In Progress, I meant that the development is in progress, meaning it's more than just a concept, but it will still take quite some time to actually be ready.

EDIT: By that I mean I should probably have a better name for that, but if we are going to prevent confusion as to what game is going into signups next, I still think it's an important enough distinction.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:06 am

Post by Shiidaji »

They totally should be! Links to the past games page/the ELOs in the OP would be super too.

That's a good idea for upcoming mods to coordinate their dev progress. Dunno if they'd prefer that over just posting in-thread about it.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:39 am

Post by Save The Dragons »

In post 47, Shiidaji wrote:Links to the past games page


This 100%
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:16 pm

Post by Flameaxe »

then Flameaxe will need one as well


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