Not Known 15's Large Normal Review, April 2019

[Performer]

which reminds me that I forgot to correct something...
Informed Even-Night Bulletproof Odd-Night Vigilante
Abilities:
Kill:You may attempt to kill another player.
Modifiers:Even-Night Bulletproof:You cannot be killed on even numbered nights.
Informed:You know that [NAME] started the game as Town Universal Backup. This information is redacted upon your flip.
Odd-Night:You can only use your abilities on even numbered nights.
Win Conditions:
You win if all enemies of the town are eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening.

Oops. Will make a full post when you have finished looking at balance. (this should not affect it because that is already the Normal rule for Informed)

+1

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This is another very creative setup from NK15!

11 vts
town universal backup
Informed Even-Night Bulletproof Odd-Night Vigilante
Odd-Night Bulletproof Even-Night Vigilante

vs

2 activated commuters
activated commuter & nights 1-2 cop
commuter enabler traitor

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Another good thing is that based on number crunching and IF neither vigs shoot at night, then...
18 people alive so 10 needed for lynch on d1
16 so 9 d2
14 so 8 d3
12 so 7 d4
etcetera. So that doesn't look like an issue.

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Some things I'm wondering about:
If mass claim happens, the commuters will suddenly look mighty suspicious. However I imagine if 1 of them ends up being lynched due to too much suspicion based on setup speculation, I imagine the other mafia commuter should be a townread by town.

The informed bp vig & town universal backup, can function as sort of a masonry...so that's a plus.

I feel like the 3 commute abilities and two nights' worth of copping town members, is a little too powered up for scum due to the inherent wifom madness that could occur from the setup...

[Performer]

The Backup is confirmed town to the Odd Vig - they won't die by vig Night 1.
The vigs are Bulletproof on the nights they can not kill:
- they can not kill each other.
- If all TPR's are alive at any point, and are trusted in a massclaim then the Mafia cannot stop them from attacking 3 more people.
- The Mafia has to be careful to protect the traitor. The Cop is not only a tool to find it but also a hint that a dead traitor might not be desirable.
The Traitor is probably the most swingy and difficult role in the game. If they get lynched or killed their team has no more powers left - except the nightkill. This decreases the Mafia power.
It is true, however, that I didn't take WIFOM into account - mainly because
-people try to outguess the mods at their own peril(instead of going scumhunting)
-unlike vigs, who cannot be Mafia(yes they could be fakeclaiming SK's but that's something that doesn't lead to a lynch early), commuters can be anti-town.
-you can't know what they will guess anyways...

I like the points here. It definitely is true that if the nights 1-2 cop and/or commuter enabler get shot, that helps out town. And if scum do for some reason, commute instead of kill....that should have town wondering in the day play about the commuter's plausibility to be town or scum.

I'll wait for mhsmith to see if he has more feedback .

[Performer]

Regarding hybrid roles in normal queue - from what I recall, northsidegal had a hybrid tracker follower role and that role could do both abilities at night.
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SUGGESTION: adjust the traitor role, so that it stops enabling the commuting at some point (after n3 seems okayish off the cuff, i.e. it enables results through n3, but n4+ the commuting stops [maybe work thorugh n4, then n5+ it stops?])

I forget if it's normal for a mafia commuter enabler traitor to be build to STOP enabling the commuting at some point, but if that's reasonable, then I'd be somewhat inclined to roll wtih that
I guess an alternative would be to turn one of the mafia into a goon, so that the traitor has a bit less power, but I'm not sure that really goes in line with your intentions here.

I've not heard of any role that has a modifier limit of stopping enabling at some point...like a nights 1-4 commuter enabler traitor for example. That sounds to me like the n1-n2 cop/activated commuter mafia role in terms of a modifier for certain nights. No objections from me..

However....

My worry about the role of Commuter Enabler Traitor, if it ends up being changed to N1-N4 Commuter Enabler Traitor - is that normal for the teamed scum to not be informed though? Like the scum team doesn't have to know anything in their role description like "there exists a traitor who can enable your commute ability for specifically n1-n4" - not sure if the teamed scum have to know about it in this case.
I'm just worried that if they don't know about it and keep commuting instead of killing, then post game players might complain that it was unfair along the lines of "wait a minute, if they knew about that commute enabling modifier on the traitor ending by n4, they would've just killed instead and that could've changed the game."

[Performer]

Yeah, making it n1 - nx commuter, rather than "surprise it's no longer enabled but traitor didn't die" is a better fix

I agree

If that's the interpretation of the Normal rules then I'd rather get rid of the cop, and give one of the Mafia an information(with the modifier Informed) that their traitor is a Commuter Enabler.

I think it's what the role's intent and description are. Like a Town Tracker Follower - nsg said she wanted to make that a hybrid role so whoever the role targeted, could get track and follow results. So for the mafia cop+commuter , I think you just have to specify in the role description what you want to do. From what I've seen, it's up to the setup designer of what they intend for roles that have multiple abilities.

[Performer]

@nk - oh I was speaking of hybrid as in a multitasking modifier. Sorry if that was confusing...

[Performer]

I have nothing else to add at the moment - mhsmith?

[Performer]

im good with this

+1