A Something_Smart 13p pre-design

implosion
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:43 pm

blepropl.

i gave you both topic mod privileges at cfj's suggestion.
Last edited by implosion on Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Something_Smart
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:12 pm

Okay I really should have written this down. I didn't think it would be this long... :roll:

It's something like:

Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Visitor
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Visitor
Mafia Strongman

Town Motion Detector
Town Backup Motion Detector
Town Ninja Doctor
Town Informed N1-3 Informed (you will learn the role, but not identity, of a different mafia member each night; N1 CV; N2 Strongman; N3 CV)
6x VT

There might have been another town role, but I'm not sure, so let's just start with this. Thoughts?
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mastina
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:34 pm

First thought is insanely scumsided. Ungated strongman is a counter to the town's only real power role. Knowing the roles of the scum roles doesn't make up for the fact that their investigative role is incredibly situational, their protective role can't protect, and that they're effectively as a result entirely VT against a scumteam that has free reign to kill whoever they want and claim whatever they want.

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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:19 pm

so there are two main ideas here:

one, that the motion detector can only see scum visits, so if you get a no visit then it's probably a clear. if this happens after the strongman is dead or when the strongman was confirmed to be killing, it's definitely a clear.

and two, that if the informed lives long enough to confirm all the scum roles, the motion detectors are basically both confirmed.

I agree that the setup's scumsided-- but I want us to be on the same page first regarding the point of the setup.
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mastina
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:00 pm

In post 3, Something_Smart wrote:one, that the motion detector can only see scum visits, so if you get a no visit then it's probably a clear.
Sure, you know this by holding all the info.

...How is the town meant to know that?

They have no way of knowing that no motion = essentially hard-clear. They gain that information by the end of N3...IF the informed is left alive, and IF the motion detector lives, and even then, motion detector can't with this info change their target choice to accommodate for that.
(That, aside from how low the chances are for a no motion result. Literally 6 slots per night will detect motion: the fruit vendors, the fruit vendors' targets, the strongman, and the nightkill. Literally half the game shows as getting motion, so a no motion result is statistically speaking quite unlikely.)

Also, even IF the scum roles are confirmed, that does not confirm the motion detectors as town. What stops the motion detector from being a fakeclaim? What stops the ninja doctor from being a fakeclaim? What stops the backup motion detector from being a fakeclaim? The town doesn't have any way to confirm their roles as actually being town.

While the town shouldn't need for their roles to be conftown in a game (town roles not being conftown is a feature not a flaw, sure!), assuming that they would be conftown when they very much aren't, as part of the balance, is a mistake. Which is to say that you seem to be assuming that the town roles would be conftown post-N3 with the informed living that long. IF the Informed lives that long (not a guarantee), I don't think they actually ARE.

So imo the setup has a double-whammy of perfect info you as the designer know, which the town will not have nor can reasonably and intuitively deduce from their limited info perspective. (Basically. Assuming the town will make the perfect deductions is required for the town to have a chance; nothing in the setup makes it easy for the town to make those perfect deductions. Quite the contrary in fact.) And while with perfect info it might be less scumsided, lacking that perfect info I would call this tremendously scumsided. As-is I'd call it upwards of 90% scum-town.

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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:24 pm

I generally assume that if there's an X and a backup X in the setup, they'll confirm each other's roles as likely legit. Maybe that's not accurate. Regardless.

What do you think about ditching the informed (which is an incredibly wordy role, too) and just giving everyone the scum roles at the start of the game?

Also, the mafia members aren't fruit vendors, but they could be, and that would make the motion detectors way easier to confirm (and a lot closer to a cop). Then mafia would have to choose between having an effective godfather and getting a strongman kill.

I actually kinda like this...
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Strongman

Town Motion Detector
Town Backup Motion Detector
Town Ninja Doctor
7x VT

Public info: The Mafia consists of two Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendors and a Strongman

Thoughts?
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mastina
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:20 am

I would consider that much better but still notably scumsided because of the aforementioned,
-Town doctor is worthless while the strongman lives
-The motion detector having literally 6 worthless results per night with only 6 possible innocents.

However, it IS much better, as the town DOES have a way to know their innocents are actually innocent and have that info available from the getgo.

I'd call it ~60% scumsided, which is technically in the passable range as the highest extreme possible allowed. In that it's technically passable, but still scumsided by a margin that's not insignificant to the point of being inadvisable, but if it's a scumsided-but-passable setup you want, you have it.

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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:25 am

MD targeting mafia isn't a worthless result; they still get guiltied if they don't claim a PR and they don't claim fruit.
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mastina
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:02 pm

Not necessarily; the town knows the mafia roles but doesn't know the town roles--a motion result could be due to an unknown town PR targeting the mafiate in question.

Yes, come massclaim, a lack of a PR claim from the mafiate and a lack of PR visiting them makes it a guilty, but it does require those very specific things to become a guilty:
A lack of the mafiate claiming PR, and a massclaim where nobody claims to have visited the mafiate.

We as the reviewers with all the info know that the motion on the mafia is a guilty when they don't claim to have received fruit. The players will not.

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm

Yeah, that's true.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:06 pm

So, I probably want to add a town role then.

My first thought was something that interacts with the visits, so like a tracker or a personal watcher. Both of these feel quite strong and potentially feel-bad for the scum who have no way to talk themselves out of a guilty.

Maybe a neighborizer? They would automatically be confirmed town by virtue of the scum roles being public, so they'd effectively be an IC with a chance to interfere with the MD's but also a chance to have the communication matter (i.e. if a PR is neighborized and claims to the neighborizer).
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mastina
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:09 pm

Neighborizer as a setup-specific IC but with the tradeoff of potentially interfering with the motion detector seems like a decent push in the right direction, yes.

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:04 pm

Do you think it's balanced with the neighborizer?

Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor
Mafia Strongman

Town Motion Detector
Town Backup Motion Detector
Town Ninja Doctor
Town Neighborizer
6x VT

Public info: The Mafia consists of two Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendors and a Strongman

I expect the motion detectors to get some kind of useful results. There's definitely info in who claims fruit. Neighborizer is a hard clear, I expect one other PR to be mostly cleared by setup spec (probably the MD as the backup MD can vouch for the existence of an MD). So I think it feels pretty good?
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mastina
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:50 am

I think it's definitely in the balanced range, yes. It's definitely closer to 50% than 60% in either direction. (I'm not lucid enough to give an exact percentage, but it's 55%-or-closer-to-50%, could be 52.5%, could be 55%, could be 50%, it's in the reasonably balanced range and not badly scumsided or terribly townsided.)

I don't think it's unfun of a setup, scum have some agency, so all it needs is final role PMs and you've got the /pass!

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:13 pm

Spoiler: Role PM's
Vanilla TownieWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Vanilla Townie.

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Town Motion DetectorWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Town Motion Detector.

Each night, you may target another player. You will learn whether you have detected motion on them; you detect motion if your target visits anyone or anyone else visits your target. If your action fails for any reason, you will receive no result.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Town Backup Motion DetectorWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Town Backup Motion Detector.

If a Motion Detector dies, then you will gain the following power:
  • Each night, you may target another player. You will learn whether you have detected motion on them; you detect motion if your target visits anyone or anyone else visits your target. If your action fails for any reason, you will receive no result.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Town Ninja DoctorWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Town Ninja Doctor.

Each night, you may target another player. That player will be protected from one kill.
Your action cannot be detected by any action-investigative ability (Follower, Motion Detector, Role Watcher, Tracker, Voyeur, Watcher).

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Town NeighborizerWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Town Neighborizer.

Each night, you may target another player. That player will be added to your neighborhood, where you and anyone in it who is alive may discuss at any time.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit VendorWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor. Your partners are YYYY, Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor, and ZZZZ, Mafia Strongman. You share a private topic (link) that you may talk in at any time while you are alive, and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

Each night, you must target another player. That player will be informed that they received a piece of fruit.
You may take multiple different actions in the same night. This includes using a personal action and a factional kill at the same time.

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Mafia StrongmanWelcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is Mafia Strongman. Your partners are YYYY, Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor, and ZZZZ, Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor. You share a private topic (link) that you may talk in at any time while you are alive, and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

If you carry out the factional kill, it cannot be prevented by any means.

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Spoiler: Code
Code: Select all
[area=Vanilla Townie]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#008800][b]Vanilla Townie.[/b][/color]

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Town Motion Detector]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#008800][b]Town Motion Detector.[/b][/color]

Each night, you may target another player. You will learn whether you have detected motion on them; you detect motion if your target visits anyone or anyone else visits your target. If your action fails for any reason, you will receive no result.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Town Backup Motion Detector]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#008800][b]Town Backup Motion Detector.[/b][/color]

If a Motion Detector dies, then you will gain the following power:
[list][*]Each night, you may target another player. You will learn whether you have detected motion on them; you detect motion if your target visits anyone or anyone else visits your target. If your action fails for any reason, you will receive no result.[/list]

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Town Ninja Doctor]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#008800][b]Town Ninja Doctor.[/b][/color]

Each night, you may target another player. That player will be protected from one kill.
Your action cannot be detected by any action-investigative ability (Follower, Motion Detector, Role Watcher, Tracker, Voyeur, Watcher).

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Town Neighborizer]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#008800][b]Town Neighborizer.[/b][/color]

Each night, you may target another player. That player will be added to your neighborhood, where you and anyone in it who is alive may discuss at any time.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor.[/b][/color] Your partners are YYYY, [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor[/b][/color], and ZZZZ, [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Strongman[/b][/color]. You share a private topic (link) that you may talk in at any time while you are alive, and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

Each night, you must target another player. That player will be informed that they received a piece of fruit.
You may take multiple different actions in the same night. This includes using a personal action and a factional kill at the same time.

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

[area=Mafia Strongman]Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Strongman.[/b][/color] Your partners are YYYY, [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor[/b][/color], and ZZZZ, [color=#FF0000][b]Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendor[/b][/color]. You share a private topic (link) that you may talk in at any time while you are alive, and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

If you carry out the factional kill, it cannot be prevented by any means.

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.[/area]
Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Note-- This game has the following public information:
The Mafia team consists of two Multitasking Compulsive Fruit Vendors and a Strongman.
I'm on a path that is intertwined with
A debt that's paid when the world goes silent

mastina
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Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:11 pm

/pass!

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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:02 pm

oh no
GTKAS
"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky


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