JaeReed's Mini Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

So this is basically five town prs against one scum pr (and day talk), with some of the town prs weak, and towns power focused largely (though not entirely) on kill prevention.

I'd also note that towns power seems to coordinate very well; only real wrench between the investigative and protection focus is the one-shot jk.

[mhsmith0]

Probably the first question I'd ask before thinking on balance is, what kind of game do you want to run? It seems like you want a somewhat diffuse set of town power that still works well together, and somewhat limited scum power to counteract it.

[mhsmith0]

Goon, Goon, JOAT (strongman/role cop/roleblocker)
vs Doctor / 2-shot follower / JOAT (bulletproof / jk / gunsmith) / UB Neighbor / Neighbor

So a few thoughts:

1) So I'm actually going to somewhat disagree with mastin's take about town power being un-synchronized. I'd agree that 2-shot follower limits its ability (my thought was it's better than a tracker due to reporting ability type instead of where someone went especially in the absence of powers that could confuse a follower like vig or scum doc), but constructed as is, there's really strong potential power for the doctor to protect basically any outed PR (follower or JOAT or neighbor) with very limited ability for scum to counteract it (a single strongman shot and a single roleblocker and a single role cop to maybe get lucky and find the doc). I don't think it's crazy to imagine a scenario where the JOAT gets a gunsmith guilty on a goon, and then is virtually unkillable as he absorbs a N2 bullet with the BP and doc protect, and then the doc still has ability to save, and the BP is still on, and the JK shot can be used.

That there are multiple potential ways to stop a kill is I think a pro-town aspect; it's true that it doesn't create an automatic clear or guilty, but it's also true that the kill-stopping powers added together create a reasonably likely scenario of two kill stops, which IS (IMO) a really strong pro-town outcome.

Overall, I think that town's power is actually highly synchronized, with no real false guilties or false innocents for the follower (except for the 1-shot role cop getting followed maybe), and a doctor that can potentially protect either the follower or the JOAT, each of which have a chance (though not very high) of getting a guilty from PR usage.

I'd say that town's overall power in terms of individual roles isn't super high, but I'd say that the power all work together pretty reasonably well, while the scum power is pretty limited in its ability to stop town (I don't think I really see how the scum JOAT can single handedly shut down town since it gets one shot each of three powers, which I think are fundamentally aligned towards stopping the doctor more than other roles).

2) In terms of balance, I'd say that town is fairly unlikely to get anything super useful out of the follower, but it's certainly not impossible. The big strength for town IMO comes two-fold: first, simply that it has five PR's that don't really mesh together poorly (and town neighbors can be interesting if they mutually town-read each other, especially given a UB being in the hood), and second, that town has a realistic chance to stop two night kills and buy an extra mislynch.

Scum power essentially weakly counteracts both of town's strengths (role cop is generally useful for either finding a PR or finding a slot that can be lynched in the day if VT, which lessens the edge from having five PR's; and RB/strongman act against town's kill-stopping power). In a general sense, I like that aspect of the design, since you're not making scum completely helpless against the things that town can do, but there are distinct and meaningful edges that town has PR-wise.

3) I agree with mastin about nerfing the UB, and I think that a gated 1-shot use backup is a neat idea, and think that helps reduce its impact and potentially rewards scum for effective N1 PR hunting (whereas debatably with a full UB, a N1 on the doc actually hurts the scum team, or at best doesn't help them all that much). If the UB gets something on like N3, then having zero shots left probably isn't terrible, presuming town got something helpful from its PRs by then. If the UB only has like one shot JK or the like, then it's still something it can use.

4) One area of swing that is either a bug or a feature depending on how you see it is the scum powers being concentrated in the JOAT. An alternative would be to give each of the shots to one of the mafia, which would have the effect of making the game a bit less dependent on whether the key mafia PR is protected or lynched. I think I'd prefer the powers split up into separate one-shots for each mafia, but that's a thought kind of off the cuff, and am curious what the group and Jae think.

5) I think that a BP getting absorbed doesn't count as a night action for follower, so if a BP loses its vest, it's basically no action (or only whatever active action was taken). I'm not sure of that one though.

[mhsmith0]

So wrt the gated ub, would he get to choose which JOAT power he gets if inherited? Bp is passive, so if it's "on the first power to get used gets used", then you might inadvertently tell the ub when he was shot at. Maybe you just tell the ub which powers are available and then ask which one he wants to inherit?

[mhsmith0]

I, er, uh, didn't know that...

[mhsmith0]

Wrt the BP shot, I think I'd prefer it as a commute. Your pm makes it clear, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the JOAT or UB be lazy about reading it and thinking it's passive like BP usually is.

I'm thinking with the gated UB it's probably balanced or very close to it. Imo towns power is mainly concentrated in kill prevention and sheer number of roles (with limited investigation power), and scum have limited but existent counters against that. And that's true whether JOAT is bp or commuter.

I still haven't figured into role pms and opening post, will look at that next, but I think I'm good with it balance-wise.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah that's the flip side. That's one I'm going back and forth on, mainly because there's a chance someone will fail to understand BP mechanics and get pissy about it post game. Otoh I'm usually unsympathetic to lol village so if that's why they lose it's really on them.

[mhsmith0]

I once had to explain to a jail keeper how their role worked... while I was still a newbie

[mhsmith0]

Which is fine, just need to make sure it's clear on that point. Though honestly the odds of rb/shot on same slot are low unless they think it's a jk or something.

[mhsmith0]

One small note on something I think you should change to be clearer

On UB role PM, please change

You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies, for one time use only.

to

You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies. However, your inherited ability will be converted to a 1-shot power.

(and then if the UB inherits JOAT, sent a role PM clarifying that the UB can only choose ONE of the JOAT powers, not that he can use each JOAT power once). Also in that case clarify which powers were already used and can't be used again (unless you want to allow him full selection)

Otherwise, I'm good with what you've done and approve it. That said, a few small/stylistic notes:

1) I'd suggest in your mod thread to make a list of REDACTED role PM's. Just something I like to do when modding so it is easier to avoid an accidental mod goof.

Alternatively, for mafia, you may also find it simpler to give a role PM that just says what their role is, and then in the mafia PM just show the full role PM's. You don't have to do it that way but it makes it easier to avoid a goof, especially on your first time. Example (from a newbie game):

Mafia Goon

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk during night phases only.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

There's nothing in there that gives any useful unredacted info (other than the filled in private PT link), so it can actually be flipped fully on lynch. Obv you don't have to do that, but it's IMO convenient and less work for you with less "oops" possibility.

2) Stylistically, I'd say avoid the modkilled spoiler in your OP. If someone actually gets modkilled, then it happens, but I don't think it needs its own section.

3) Only do a VC link if you're actually motivated to post them all. I've gotten to the point where I don't link them, and I don't think anyone actually is bothered by this, and I've had multiple games go through since I've stopped linking VC's and have yet to get a complaint or even comment on it.

4) I'd say change will to may for extensions. I don't think you're obligated to extend for very short down times or replacements done well in advance of a deadline.

5) Some rules I've found helpful that might be worth adding:
Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.
Flips will have full role revealed (I will essentially post the PM you received on your flip with the obvious required reductions)
The game will end when all threats to town have been eliminated or that is not possible.


That said, those five items are all suggestions, and it's fine without any of them.

[mhsmith0]

lol now that I've actually done research on how utterly useless town neighbors are in mini normals, I'm a bit worried town has too little power. That said, doctor, 2-shot follower, JOAT and a wonky UB are probably ok against goon/goon/JOAT. My guess is scum have >50% odds here, but hopefully town has enough power here to make it a good run. Slightly nervous, but I've approved it already and I think it's at least close enough to balanced (and at some point, if towns are bad enough for setups like these to be unbalanced, then so be it).

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually shocked by just how horrible town win rates in mini normals have been.

36-69, 34% in 10v3 mini normals from 1401 through 1832 (excluding a few where I didn't have the data to see what the roles were due to mods not showing the role flips on OP and games not getting archived accordingly)

That record is... utterly horrific. Like, my goodness.

[mhsmith0]

Also *fist bumps jae for win in 1844*

[mhsmith0]

Sounds good. Good luck!