mastina's Mini Normal Review

[mastina]

First and probably obvious question: These are all 1 shots?

That generally goes along with being a JOAT, yes. (Also laid out in the role PMs: "Each is one-shot".)

also how would rolecop work in this? Do they get full roles of these JOATs or just that they are JOATs?

As I said here:

Rolecop gets the information which would flip.

...It's the full-flip. However, I did also say:

If the town is too strong as-is, I can drop the Vanilla Cop JOAT. I wasn't quite sure whether the town would be too weak against the scum, so I threw that in as an extra; if you think the town's better without, I can drop that role.

divide up scum power and nerf town a bit here.

Nerfing town I can do (see also, I only included the Vanilla Cop JOAT as a role if the game would be scumsided with only three town JOATs), but I am against the idea of dividing scum power up.

I believe your modding colour is going to be almost impossible to read for people using MafBlack.

Known issue, but not usually problematic. I usually reserve the mod color for important announcements (which in a Normal are hopefully rare) and for editing posts when the need arises to do so.

and I think you probably do need to drop one of the town joats, too much investigative power and not enough leftovers for mafia to fakeclaim as their joat.

I would MASSIVELY prefer the dropped JOAT to be the Vanilla Cop JOAT, since that JOAT was not part of my original idea. I added it as a last-minute "in case I need the extra town power". It was not intended to be a core aspect of the setup.

The core aspect of the setup as I saw it was: strong investigative JOAT, protective JOAT, and a weak investigative JOAT to back them up, with the mafia having whatever power level they needed in order to provide a reasonable defense. I estimated ninja/strongman/roleblocker as a JOAT would give them freedom of movement in terms of allowing them to break town synchronization, while not offering a counter to every situation and not dominating the PRs.

[mastina]

^Basically, the way I see it: if it's the tracker-JOAT + the vanilla-cop-JOAT + the protective-JOAT, you've got three very weak PRs. Short of the tracker getting a guilty or the neapolitan getting a(n ambiguous) guilty or the rolecop clearing/condemning a player (rolecop, by the way, would get "vanilla" on a goon, forgot to mention that earlier, but that's the standard in place last I knew), probably the best the town can get is a single innocent in the form of finding a vanilla townie with the neapolitan. If the scum had no power, that could maybe be acceptable (though I'd still see the scum winning the game more often than not), but with the scum power there's a 0% chance town wins that game.

If it's the tracker-JOAT + the vanilla-cop-JOAT + the cop-JOAT, the town is left completely and entirely at the mercy of nightkills. (Also makes the strongman shot on the mafia JOAT redundant.) The game enters into ridiculously-swingy territory: a mafia roleblocking one JOAT and killing a second N1 leads to a near-guaranteed scum victory. That same game where two or three of the JOATs get guilties N1 leads to a town steamroll. I simply don't see that as being comfortably balanced.

If it's the vanilla-cop-JOAT + the cop-JOAT + the protective-JOAT, well, this one against the scum JOAT I can see as balanced, though it does hold a slightly higher chance of confirming players in my opinion. (The extra Neapolitan shot > the tracker/follower/motion detector powers, whereas the vanilla cop/rolecop ~= tracker/follower/motion detector powers. So the vanilla-cop JOAT is slightly stronger than the tracker-JOAT. The only counterbalance to this is that a vanilla-cop JOAT is less likely to be believed when paired with a cop-JOAT.)

So I suppose I can do that combination. But my preference WOULD be the tracker-JOAT + cop-JOAT + protective-JOAT, because that combination was what I originally envisioned the setup to be, and runs by my mental math to be about the same as the vanilla-cop/cop/protective one would.

[mastina]

Mastin even in reviews you can't keep responses down to a few sentences

Okay, how's this for a response: I'm getting rather a few mixed signals for my review.

[mastina]

Just a note in case it becomes relevant: I'll be V/LA from the 23rd through the 27th for Christmas-related reasons. During that time, I won't be able to do much.

[mastina]

That's my question.
I've gotten a different answer from each reviewer; there seems to be no consensus.
You want one JOAT removed, from my understanding--I have stated that I would drop the vanilla cop JOAT. You also suggested distributing the scum power, but mhsmith disagreed with you on that. (It is also against my preference.)
Cheery Dog either wants one removed, or thinks the game is fine with all four (hard to tell, his post was ambiguous), and hasn't clarified that.
mhsmith has said it doesn't need to be fundamentally redesigned, but hasn't weighed in on what he actually thinks, as far as I know.

If it were left to me, I would run it as EITHER:
JOAT (Cop, Gunsmith, Neapolitan)
JOAT (Tracker, Follower, Motion Detector)
JOAT (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard)
JOAT (Vanilla Cop, Rolecop, Neapolitan)
VT x 6

JOAT (Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker)
Goon x 2

OR

JOAT (Cop, Gunsmith, Neapolitan)
JOAT (Tracker, Follower, Motion Detector)
JOAT (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard)
VT x 7

JOAT (Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker)
Goon x 2

...But I haven't gotten clear feedback on you from whether this would be acceptable, and if it was, which of them would be better balanced.

[mastina]

I'd be fine with tweaking the vanilla cop JOAT. (Which seems to be the closest we've gotten to consensus--"first with four would be fine, with a minor tweak".)
Honestly I put in the Neapolitan mainly because I couldn't think of a third power to give that JOAT other than Neapolitan.
I'd be open to suggestions. The best option I can think of would be to use my non-normal role on a "weak hider":
-When hiding behind a target, has effectively commuted. (And is thus immune to the roleblock.)
-If the target is shot at (regardless of whether this shot would kill the target), the hider dies.
-If the target is not town, the hider dies.

...But that's just the best I can think of.

Alternatively, the third shot could be a Friendly Neighbor (or even just a Fruit Vendor).

Like I said, if you've got ideas...open to them. What would your preference be? It basically seems like you want all four JOATs, but want that third Neapolitan power to be something else.

[mastina]

To me, it goes against the spirit of a JOAT to have the JOAT
-have less than three abilities
-have more than one shot of an ability.

I feel like if you do that for a JOAT, it stops being a JOAT. A JOAT, to me, means 3-4 abilities which are all one shot.

[mastina]

Fruit vendor works for me. So with that, would this be acceptable?
JOAT (Cop, Gunsmith, Neapolitan)
JOAT (Tracker, Follower, Motion Detector)
JOAT (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard)
JOAT (Vanilla Cop, Rolecop, Fruit Vendor)
VT x 6

JOAT (Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker)
Goon x 2

[mastina]

SETUP:

Town:

JOAT (Cop, Gunsmith, Neapolitan)
JOAT (Tracker, Follower, Motion Detector)
JOAT (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard)
JOAT (Vanilla Cop, Rolecop, Fruit vendor)
VT x 6

Mafia:

JOAT (Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker)
Goon x 2

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Spoiler: town roles

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town JOAT (Cop/Gunsmith/Neapolitan)

.
During the night, you may use one of your three powers. Each is one-shot.

• Cop:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive a result of "town", "not town", or "no result".
  
• Gunsmith:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "does not have a gun", "has a gun", or "no result".
  
• Neapolitan:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "is a vanilla townie", "is not a vanilla townie", or "no result".

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town JOAT (Tracker/Follower/Motion Detector)

.
During the night, you may use one of your three powers. Each is one-shot.

• Tracker:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive a result of "[Your target playername] visited [player(/players they targeted]", "Playername did not go anywhere", or "no result".
  
• Follower:
  During the night, target a player. You will be informed what type of action they used, but not whom they used it on. If they targeted nobody, you will be told "playername did not visit".
  
• Motion Detector:
  During the night, target a player. Possible results are "you sensed motion", "you did not sense motion", and "no result".

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town JOAT (Doctor/Jailkeeper/Bodyguard)

.
During the night, you may use one of your three powers. Each is one-shot.

• Doctor:
  During the night, target a player. They will be protected from any and all nightkills that night.
  
• Jailkeeper:
  During the night, target a player. They will be protected from any and all nightkills that night. Any night action that player takes will fail.
  
• Bodyguard:
  During the night, target a player. If they were to die, you will die in their place.

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Town JOAT (Vanilla Cop/Rolecop/Fruit Vendor)

.
During the night, you may use one of your three powers. Each is one-shot.

• Vanilla Cop:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive a result of "vanilla", "not vanilla", or "no result".
  
• Rolecop:
  During the night, target a player. You will receive their role.
  
• Fruit Vendor:
  During the night, target a player. They will receive the following: "someone has sent you a piece of fruit!".

You win when all threats to the

town

are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Spoiler: scum roles

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your partners are

X

(

Goon

), and

Y

(

JOAT[Ninja/Strongman/Roleblocker]

).
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.

You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,

Playername

.
You are a

Mafia JOAT (Ninja/Strongman/Roleblock)

.
Your partners are

X

, and

Y

, both

Goons

.
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the night, you may use one of your three powers. Each is one-shot.

• Ninja:
  During the night, if you use this power, your kill cannot be detected by any method.
  
• Strongman:
  During the night, if you use this power, your kill will bypass protection, standard kill immunity, or interference.
  
• Roleblock:
  During the night, target a player. Any night action that player takes will fail.

you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.

You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.

The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.

Good luck and have fun!

[mastina]

I suppose I should officially note in here as well that the game has ended.

[mastina]

(Which would mean this review PT would be released I'd think?)