Eggman's Mini Normal Review


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Eggman's Mini Normal Review

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:51 pm

Post by N »

Eggman has a 13p mini normal to review. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.

Reviewers: Antihero, Marquis, Cephrir

Eggman wrote:1. I will be attending a summer camp from the 5th to the 22nd, but I will be able to check in on the thread every morning and night. (It's from 12-5, so that leaves plenty of time for the night.)
2. The game will have 9 players.
3. My backup mod will be MURDERCAT. Please include him in the review process as well!
4. I do not have any modding experience as of now: however, two other users and I will soon be modding what qualifies as a Mini Normal game on another site. I'm also going to run a separate Mini Theme game on the same site, as soon as I can finish writing up the flavor.

5.
Spoiler: First Post
Thank you for playing in my first game! I hope you enjoy it!

[Insert Player List Here]

The Rules:
1. All sitewide rules apply here too. Don't break them.
2. Don't quote any PMs I've sent you. Paraphrasing is OK.
3. Talking about this game outside the thread is not allowed! That includes PMs and off-site communication.
4. Play to your win condition. Throwing the game makes it less fun for everyone else.
5. Don't use anything anyone short of a master detective wouldn't notice (cryptography, hidden messages, tiny text).
6. Provable randomness, such as random.org, is banned.
7. Don't be a poor sport. As a cool guy on this site once said, "Attack the play, not the player".
8. Don't pretend to be me.
Underlined purple is my color. Please don't use it.

9. If you die, you get a "Bah" post. You can't say anything game-related in it.
9. Each in-game day will last 14 days and each in-game night will last 2 days.
10. Players that don't post for two days (48 hour) will be prodded. If a player is prodded and doesn't post within one day (24 hours) of the prod, I will look for a replacement for that slot. If a player receives three prods they will be replaced. If you're in V/LA, you are exempt from the above rules for the duration of your V/LA.
11. If a player is voted for by the majority of living players, that player is lynched, and will not be able to participate for the remainder of the game. Players can continue to post until I post the end-of-day writeup: this time period is called Twilight.
12. Votes will be counted if they are placed by the vote tag or in bold. Examples of these votes:
VOTE: Eggman
Vote: Eggman

13. If you want to end the day without a lynch, I will accept votes for Abstain or No Lynch. They will be treated as one and the same in the vote writeup. Examples of these votes:
VOTE: No Lynch
Vote: Abstain

14. Every player will have a Role, dictating what they can do during the night, if anything. Here's a sample PM for the role "Vanilla Townie".
Welcome! You are a
Vanilla Townie.

You have no night ability.
You win when the town has eliminated every threat. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.

Day Quicklinks
Day 1 Start
(The day start and end-of-day writeups will eventually go here.)


Spoiler: Role PMs
Welcome! You are a
Vanilla Townie.

You have no night ability.
You win when the town has eliminated every threat. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.

Welcome! You are a
Town Jack-of-all-trades.

Your abilities are:
Look for Clues
: you can investigate one player during the night, and see if they are
Town
,
Mafia
, or
neither
. You can only use this ability once!
First-Aid Kit
: you can choose one player during the night to protect them from being killed. You can only use this ability once!
Shotgun Blast
: you can shoot one player during the night. You can only use this ability once!
You can only use one of your abilities per night.
You win when the town has eliminated every threat. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.

Welcome! You are a
Town Tracker.

Your ability is:
Night-Vision Goggles
: you can choose one player during the night and see who they visit.
You win when the town has eliminated every threat. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.

Welcome! You are a
Town Bulletproof.

You have no night ability. However, you are wearing a bulletproof vest, which will protect from one gunshot.
You win when the town has eliminated every threat. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.

Welcome! You are a
Mafia Strongman.

Your abilities are:
Factional Communication: you can talk with your Mafia buddy, ____, in this thread.
Shotgun Blast: as a mafioso/mafiosa, you or your Mafia buddy can kill one player per night.
I Work Out A Lot: you can flex your muscles, ensuring that the Mafia's Shotgun Blast will kill your target. You can only use this ability once!
You win when the Mafia controls at least 50% of the votes. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.


Welcome! You are a
Mafia Goon.

Your abilities are:
Factional Communication: you can talk with your Mafia buddy, ____, in this thread.
Shotgun Blast: as a mafioso/mafiosa, you or your Mafia buddy can kill one player per night.
You win when the Mafia controls at least 50% of the votes. Confirm by PMing me back with your role name.


Spoiler: Results
Jack-of-all-trades

You were able to successfully protect [target]!
After investigating [target] all night, you have discovered that they are
Town!

After investigating [target] all night, you have discovered that they are
Mafia!

After investigating [target] all night, you have discovered that they are
an Independent!

You have successfully shot [target]!

Tracker

After watching [target] all night, you have concluded that they visited [player].
After watching [target] all night, you have concluded that they did not visit anyone.

Bulletproof

During the night, you were shot! Your bulletproof vest is too damaged to continue protecting you; you're now a Vanilla Townie.

Mafia

Your Strongman's strength let you shoot [target] through their protection!
You have successfully shot [target]!
You shot [target], but failed to kill them!
Last edited by N on Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GTKAS

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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:15 am

Post by Antihero »

scumsided
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:19 am

Post by Cephrir »

I'm not sure that naming abilities is normal, but I didn't check.

The JOAT should not be informed if his shot or protect worked or not.

I don't believe bulletproofs are informed when their vest is used up. In addition, the name of this role as presented is Town One-Shot Bulletproof, not Town Bulletproof.

Also, yes, this is scumsided.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:50 am

Post by Eggman »

I think the one-shot Bulletproof should be notified if his vest is popped so that he can know to start playing like a Vanilla Townie. How would you know if it wasn't a JOAT doc save?
Naming the abilities was just something silly I came up with based on my time at another site.
How could I make it less scum-sided? Would increasing the player roster to add another investigative role, VT, and goon work for that?
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:55 am

Post by Cephrir »

In post 3, Eggman wrote:I think the one-shot Bulletproof should be notified if his vest is popped so that he can know to start playing like a Vanilla Townie. How would you know if it wasn't a JOAT doc save?
You wouldn't.

This is a Normal game, so there are certain standards that are in place, and I'm pretty sure that would be among them.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:56 am

Post by Cephrir »

In post 3, Eggman wrote:How could I make it less scum-sided? Would increasing the player roster to add another investigative role, VT, and goon work for that?
Oh wow, I just realized this is 9 players and not 13. I thought it was scumsided with four extra vanilla townies.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:57 am

Post by Cephrir »

If you want to run a 9-player game you're gonna want 2 scum

If you want 3 scum, you're gonna want more players

4 scum is pretty much right out
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:49 pm

Post by Antihero »

In post 0, N wrote:Eggman has a 13p mini normal to review
where did you get 9p, ceph?

i'm confused
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:20 pm

Post by Antihero »

In post 3, Eggman wrote:I think the one-shot Bulletproof should be notified if his vest is popped so that he can know to start playing like a Vanilla Townie. How would you know if it wasn't a JOAT doc save?
Naming the abilities was just something silly I came up with based on my time at another site.
How could I make it less scum-sided? Would increasing the player roster to add another investigative role, VT, and goon work for that?
1) your discretion. USUALLY on this site bp's aren't told when their vest is popped, but some of the older mods do

2) allowing ANY potential to use flavor to deduce alignment / veracity of a claim is off limits. that's why attaching flavor to game-related mechanics like roles and abilities is a no-no in normals. sorry. (once you're eligible for the theme queue you have a lot more freedom)

3) 13p is the maximum for it to still be a mini. anything bigger, you're getting into large territory.

ok, so right now you've got 1 scum pr + 2 goons vs 1 strong town pr + 2 weak prs + 7 vts.

you don't have enough protective power in this setup to justify giving scum a strongman. you've also got the joat's one-shot vig kill that's going to put town at even numbers (anti-town)

for us to get closer to balanced, there needs to either be more town power and less scum power or more town power (emphasis on protection).

you can:
>ditch the strongman and go w/ an all goon team. then add a decent town PR.
>keep the strongman and add a town jailkeeper. then upgrade that tracker to a stronger investigative like a watcher or a cop.
>split the killing power off from the joat and give town a 2-shot vig and put in ???? something else for the joat.

long and short of it: town needs more power, scum may need less
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:47 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 7, Antihero wrote:
In post 0, N wrote:Eggman has a 13p mini normal to review
where did you get 9p, ceph?

i'm confused
Ctrl-F "9"
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:03 pm

Post by Antihero »

i blame n
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Post by Antihero »

in THAT case, it's actually a lot closer to fine.

the scum strongman is still too much. trade for an encryptor or 1-shot investigative and i think i'd pass it.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Post by Cephrir »

Ohhh my god I thought there were two goons for some reason and there aren't

I'm so stupid.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:17 pm

Post by Cephrir »

The strongman might be fine, I guess, since hitting the bulletproof would just put the town on evens anyway, but I think having the strongman is a weird design decision (at that point.... why have a bulletproof at all?)

A one shot role cop would be cool
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:01 am

Post by Marquis »

lol u guys

joke's on me though, because I forgot to bookmark this thread. I will take a thorough look after work.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:41 am

Post by Eggman »

Spoiler: So, would this be a better 9-player setup?
Town Jack-of-all-trades (One-shot cop, doctor, roleblocker)
Town Tracker
Town Even-day Doctor
Town One-shot Bulletproof
3 Vanilla Townies

Mafia Strongman
Mafia Goon

The even-day doctor gives Town a little bit more protective power to justify it. Alternatively, replace one of the VTs with a Backup Doctor or make the Doctor a non-consecutive night doc (if his target is protected it won't work the next night).

I was also thinking of increasing the size to 11 players, by adding a weak PR (Friendly Neighbor?) and a Traitor. Would that be balanced?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:46 pm

Post by Antihero »

still not enough protective power to justify the strongman. even-night modifier p much means the doc will get in probably 1 shot max

i think a scum rolecop would boost scum power a bit w/o overpowering them
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:37 am

Post by Eggman »

Spoiler: How about this?
Bumped up to 11 players:
Town Jack-of-all-trades (cop, doctor, roleblocker)
Town Watcher
Town Non-consecutive night Doctor
Town One-shot Bulletproof
4 VTs

Mafia Role Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Traitor


Or with 9 players:
Town Jack-of-all-trades (cop, doctor, roleblocker)
Town Tracker
Town Non-consecutive night Doctor
Town One-shot Bulletproof
3 VTs

Mafia One-shot Role Cop
Mafia Goon
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:33 am

Post by Marquis »

The second one is a bit townsided; I'd accept that with a full Mafia Rolecop and one of the last two PRs removed.

The first one I like more, noting that the Tracker's been buffed to a Watcher. 8:3 is an inherently scumsided distribution, but I do like how you're using the Traitor to mediate that slightly. Still, town could benefit there from a slightly stronger PR than the non-consec doc; perhaps a full Bodyguard if you want to keep the protective aspect, or something investigative/manipulative seeing as it's a Role Cop they're up against now and not a Strongman.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:36 am

Post by Marquis »

Scratch that, for the 9p (second) one you'd probably need to make only one of those changes, though I'm a bit more iffy on the balance there.

Not sure how much you'd like to bring it up to 11p for certain, but I think it usually makes for a more interesting/committed game. And I think the setup you've presented for the 11p is also both more interesting and clearer balance-wise.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:49 pm

Post by Antihero »

In post 18, Marquis wrote:The second one is a bit townsided; I'd accept that with a full Mafia Rolecop and one of the last two PRs removed.

The first one I like more, noting that the Tracker's been buffed to a Watcher. 8:3 is an inherently scumsided distribution, but I do like how you're using the Traitor to mediate that slightly. Still, town could benefit there from a slightly stronger PR than the non-consec doc; perhaps a full Bodyguard if you want to keep the protective aspect, or something investigative/manipulative seeing as it's a Role Cop they're up against now and not a Strongman.
^this
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:35 am

Post by Eggman »

Hmm.
I like the 11-player setup right now, but going by the Perfect Win method, Town wins on D3 while Maf wins on D5.
Would a nighttime Town Suicide Bomber or Desperado screw up the balance? Are those roles even normal..?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:51 am

Post by Cephrir »

I think pretty much all mini setups will appear townsided if you use that method.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:53 am

Post by Antihero »

perfect win method is flawed. scum SHOULD need more mislynches to win than town need good lynches.

(i also think neither desperado nor suicide bomber are normal)
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:45 pm

Post by Marquis »

You're almost at the finish line! Just a tweak or two left, unless there's any other concerns you have?
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