xSoniaNevermindx's Mini Normal Review


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xSoniaNevermindx's Mini Normal Review

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:12 pm

Post by N »

xSoniaNevermindx has a 13p mini normal to review. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.

Reviewers: Antihero, callforjudgement, Radja
; backup mod: Nahdia
xSoniaNevermindx wrote:1. Of course ready as I'll ever be!
2. 13 players!
3. My backup/co mod will be Nahdia
4. I have modded other forum mafia games off site on epicmafia but this will be my first time hosting on this site

Welcome to Mini Normal (put number here) Firework mafia!


Image
Playerlist:

1.Betty
2.Tom
3.TJ
4.Adam
5.Rocky
6.Misty
7.Bob
8.Amy
9.AJ
10.Lisa
11.Alex
12.Vicky
13.Courtney

*=prods

Spoiler: Living Players
Betty
Tom
TJ
Adam
Rocky
Misty
Bob
Amy
Alex
Vicky
Courtney

Spoiler: No Longer With Us (Dead)
Lisa Vanilla Town lynched Day 1

AJ Mafia Goon Killed Night 1

Spoiler: Most Recent VC
(VC here)

==========================================Post 2 in next line============================================
General rules

Follow all site wide rules

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Please don't use invisible, encrypted or really tiny fonts please (nothing below 75)
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No quoting any private mod communication, including your role PM, or contents of private topics. You can paraphrase
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I reserve the right to change the rules at any time as Mod
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This game has been reviewed for normalcy and balance.
>
If you have an action during the night and do not send in I will consider you taking "No Action"
>
If you have more then 1 action you may use it the same night (So a scum player could roleblock and perform the kill the same night)
>
Mafia have day chat.
Voting

>
A majoirty to lynched when half the players + 1 are voting the same person
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I will accept votes in bold or vote vote tag examples:
Vote Sonia
or VOTE: Sonia
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Votes in Spoiler tags hidden or very tiny text won't be counted
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Typo's on names when voting is fine as long as I understand who you're trying to vote.
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Unvotes are very helpful but not needed.
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Twlight phase goes on like normal feel free to post after a lynch until I lock the thread
Miscellaneous

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My color will be
Light Blue
Please don't use it or any other shade of blue
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We will have 2 week day phases and 2 day night phases
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If you have any questions please PM me or Bold with
@Mod
(Pm is preferred)
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If you are going
V/LA PLEASE PM ME

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I will prod after 48 hours of not posting and 24 hours after that if I see you keep posting to only prod dodge I will not take that into account after 3 prods you will be replaced.
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I don't mind swearing and I understand games can get heated but please nothing extreme
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You are allowed one "blah" post after your death nothing game related can be in it
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Game will begin after 10 people have confirmed

Spoiler: At least one person will get this PM
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Vanilla Town


Abilities
: You have your Vote and Voice.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

============================================All Role PM's===================================================
Spoiler: Town
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Vanilla Town


Abilities
: You have your Vote and Voice.

Win Condition
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Town Tracker


Abilities:
At night you can choose one person to visit and you will find out who they visited

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Neighborizer/De Neighborizer


Abilities:
At night you may choose 1 person to add to the Neighborhood You may also take someone out

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Town Weak Doctor


Abilities:
At night you may choose to protect someone from death but if you protect a mafia member you will die.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Town Universal Back Up


Abilities:
When a Power role has died you will take over their abilities/powers

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Town 1-shot Gunsmith


Abilities:
At night you may choose one person to check if they have a gun or not.

Win Condition:
You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town player is alive.


Spoiler: Mafia
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Mafia Role Cop


You share a daytalk with mafia partner
(Player name)
and
(Playername) (Url)


Abilities:
You may choose one person at night to learn their role. You also share a kill with the other members of the mafia

Win Condition:
You win when half the remaining mafia take over the town or nothing can stop you from winning.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Mafia Back Up Role Cop


You share a daytalk with mafia partner
(Player name)
and
(Playername) (Url)


Abilities:
When your main role cop dies you will gain this power: You may choose one person at night to learn their role.
You also share a kill with the other members of the mafia

Win Condition:
You win when half the remaining mafia take over the town or nothing can stop you from winning.
Hello xSoniaNevermindx! Welcome to Firework Mafia!
You are a
Mafia Goon

You share a daytalk with mafia partner
(Player name)
and
(Playername) (Url)


Abilities:
You share a kill with the other members of the mafia

Win Condition:
You win when half the remaining mafia take over the town or nothing can stop you from winning.

=========================================================================================================
Role Actions:
Tracker: You find out (player name) visited ____ / You find out (player name) visited no one.
Gunsmith: You find out (Player name) has a gun./You find out (Player name) doesn't have a gun.
Universal Back Up: You have taken the powers of a: Role Cop/Tracker/1 shot gunsmith/Neighborizer/De Neighborizer/Weak Doctor
If added to Neighborhood: You have been added to the Firework Neighborhood you can talk in it at any time here (url)
If taken out: You have been removed from the Neighborhood and can no longer talk in it if you do you will be mod killed.
Role Cop: You find out your target is vanilla/ You find out your target is Tracker/Gunsmith/Neighborizer/De Neighborizer/Weak Doctor
=========================================================================================================
Town Neighborizer/De Neighborizer
Town 1 shot Gunsmith
Town weak doctor
Town tracker
Town Uni backup
Mafia role cop
Mafia back up role cop
Mafia goon
5 Vanilla town
is the set up
Last edited by N on Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GTKAS

Share And Enjoy
(go stick your head in a pig)
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Post by Antihero »

universal backup wouldn't take the backup rolecop if that one was the first to go?
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:16 pm

Post by Radja »

Gunsmith+weak doctor+tracker+backup is 4 investigative roles.
That's a LOT
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:18 pm

Post by Antihero »

ok so some of the nuts and bolts that need to be worked out:

>does the rolecop not see the universal backup?
>who shows up as positive to the gunsmith? (like what if the universal backup gets the rolecop and the gunsmith investigates him?)
>light blue doesn't show up well on the mafsilver skin. i would consider a new modding color.
> "> If you have more then 1 action you may use it the same night (So a scum player could roleblock and perform the kill the same night)" so can the neighborizer add someone and kick someone from the neighborhood on the same night?
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:21 pm

Post by Antihero »

now, on to balance.

i actually think it's pretty close.
In post 2, Radja wrote:Gunsmith+weak doctor+tracker+backup is 4 investigative roles.
That's a LOT
the gunsmith is 1-shot and tracker is meh. the major one here is going to be the weak doc and that comes with the drawback of not knowing for certain your action was successful.

it might SOUND like a lot but i think it's about right in terms of investigative power
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:24 pm

Post by Antihero »

In post 3, Antihero wrote:ok so some of the nuts and bolts that need to be worked out:

>does the rolecop not see the universal backup?
>who shows up as positive to the gunsmith? (like what if the universal backup gets the rolecop and the gunsmith investigates him?)
>light blue doesn't show up well on the mafsilver skin. i would consider a new modding color.
> "> If you have more then 1 action you may use it the same night (So a scum player could roleblock and perform the kill the same night)" so can the neighborizer add someone and kick someone from the neighborhood on the same night?
another thing to add to this

> how does the 1-shot gunsmith interact w/ the scum kill and the universal backup. if the gunsmith spends the shot and dies would the universal backup still take it? does the kill cause the investigation to fail?
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

First of all thank you for taking time to review this with me!
In post 3, Antihero wrote:ok so some of the nuts and bolts that need to be worked out:

>does the rolecop not see the universal backup?
>who shows up as positive to the gunsmith? (like what if the universal backup gets the rolecop and the gunsmith investigates him?)
>light blue doesn't show up well on the mafsilver skin. i would consider a new modding color.
> "> If you have more then 1 action you may use it the same night (So a scum player could roleblock and perform the kill the same night)" so can the neighborizer add someone and kick someone from the neighborhood on the same night?
Role cop would see the uni back up yes
Everyone shows up positive (town) besides mafia themselves
Okay do you know any bright colors like yellow green or dark purple would go well?
Yes neighborizer can add someone and kick someone in the same night
In post 5, Antihero wrote:
In post 3, Antihero wrote:ok so some of the nuts and bolts that need to be worked out:

>does the rolecop not see the universal backup?
>who shows up as positive to the gunsmith? (like what if the universal backup gets the rolecop and the gunsmith investigates him?)
>light blue doesn't show up well on the mafsilver skin. i would consider a new modding color.
> "> If you have more then 1 action you may use it the same night (So a scum player could roleblock and perform the kill the same night)" so can the neighborizer add someone and kick someone from the neighborhood on the same night?
another thing to add to this

> how does the 1-shot gunsmith interact w/ the scum kill and the universal backup. if the gunsmith spends the shot and dies would the universal backup still take it? does the kill cause the investigation to fail?
I assume you're asking if the gunsmith used the shot and died the same night would the uni backup still get a shot and I would say yes.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:57 pm

Post by Antihero »

ok yeah so since you have a universal backup and a rolecop and a 1-shot role in the same setup, it's now REALLY important you flesh out how action resolution works. another question that came to mind since i made my initial posts: what if the rolecop investigates the universal backup on the SAME night they kill another PR. would he show up as universal backup or the role he's taking over?
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:58 pm

Post by Antihero »

i'm pretty certain role cops are supposed to have a gun
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:59 pm

Post by Antihero »

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:05 pm

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

That helps out even more balance wise imo

UB take over depends on if the pr in question was lynched or killed

If they were lynched they turn into the pr at night

if the pr was killed they turn into it at day

So if the rolecop checked the UB the night a pr got killed they'd get UB
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:20 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Something people seem to be missing is that town can't backup scum roles in Normals. A Universal Backup only triggers when a power role of their own alignment dies. The rules are unclear on what happens if a Rolecop scans a Backup who's already activated, but I suspect they get the original role name (e.g. "Universal Backup").

In terms of your rules, they seem to cover everything important, but some of them could be worded together. The rules for when someone is lynched are probably not what you meant; in a 13 player game, half the players plus 1 is 7½, whereas you probably want 7 votes to be enough to lynch. You could do something like "This game lynches a player when a majority (more than half) of the players are voting for them". (Instead of "more than half", you could do "half the players rounded down plus 1", but that's somewhat wordier. Your prod rule looks like the standard one but I'm not quite sure I can parse it as an English sentence. Try these two rules instead:
> I will prod after 48 hours of not posting, and replace after a further 24 hours or immediately on a third prod.
> Prod dodges do not count as posting for the purpose of activity rules.
Additionally, your confirmation rule is nonstandard (the standard would be to start at 11 confirmations). The basic idea is to mathematically guarantee that at least one member of the scumteam has confirmed before the game starts (so that town can't force the game to start before scum have got themselves sorted out). That said, 10 is unlikely to be a problem in practice.

Writing night flips as "killed" is a bad idea, especially with a Weak Doctor in the setup. All overnight death flavour has to be identical in a Normal. I'd suggest simply using "died", which doesn't assume anything about the cause of death.

Your Neighbourhood is fairly awkward for technical reasons; removing players is somewhat hard to implement. My recommendation would be that each night, you lock the Neighbour thread and create a new one. Note that it's technically possible to remove a player from a private thread here on mafiascum.net; doing so prevents them posting in it. However, if the player bookmarked the thread in advance, they can still see who is posting in it, even if they can't see what's being posted. As such, creating a new thread for each day is likely the best option. (How important is deneighbourization to the setup? If it's unimportant, you could simplify things by using a Normal Neighbourizer rather than your variant.)

Action resolution is standardised in Normals, although many players and mods have problems following it. I believe these are the "official" answers to the problems asked above:
  • A Universal Backup can only inherit Town roles, therefore they can't back up the Rolecop or Backup Rolecop.
  • A Rolecop sees the Universal Backup as a Universal Backup, at least before it's activated. I think it should see it as a Universal Backup even once it's activated, but the rules are unclear on this. If it sees a Backup as its new role after it activates, it also sees it as the new role if it activates on the same night (by the NAR golden rule; the activation affects the investigation but not vice versa).
  • The full list of roles on which a Gunsmith gets a guilty is: Mafia (if not a Traitor or Doctor), Cop, Vigilante, Gunsmith, Rolecop, Vanilla Cop, Backup (of a role that Gunsmiths can see), JOAT (containing a shot that Gunsmiths can see). In this particular setup, a Gunsmith will always get an innocent on Town and always get a guilty on Mafia, due to the roles that exist. (I don't think "Universal Backup" counts as "Backup" for this purpose.)
  • As the variant Neighbourizer is a variant role, Sonia can choose the details of how it works. If it can neighbourize and deneighbourize in the same night, this should be clearly explained in the role PM.
That's normalcy/rules issues sorted out; there's nothing major here. I need to think more to figure out the balance.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:34 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

Okay so rolecop sees UB regardless okay
I think I'll replace my mod color with bright green if that doesn't fit purple
Add in the role pm neighbourizer can add and get rid of someone in the same night
Fix a few rules

Balance wise my only worry is if town get out of hand regardless of that. I feel like it's fine
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:44 am

Post by Antihero »

if you think it's townsided, it's not

trust me
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:45 am

Post by Antihero »

In post 11, callforjudgement wrote:A Universal Backup only triggers when a power role of their own alignment dies. The rules are unclear on what happens if a Rolecop scans a Backup who's already activated, but I suspect they get the original role name (e.g. "Universal Backup").
wow, i'm stupid i missed that

i even pulled up the universal backup page and looked it up... smh
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:40 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

In post 13, Antihero wrote:if you think it's townsided, it's not

trust me
That was my one worry if you don't think it's town sided do you think I should put less invest roles for more scumhunting?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:40 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

As in replace one with another pr of some sort.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:59 am

Post by Antihero »

i don't agree at all with the premise that investigative roles preclude or lessen the need for scumhunting so...

no
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:33 pm

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

So what do you think?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:53 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

OK, let's try to analyse this for balance. (Sorry I was missing for a bit; I had technical problems recently and was struggling just to do votecounts in my own game. When your connection to the site is so unreliable that you spend 20 minutes trying to do a vote count, you kind-of forget trying to do anything else.)

Here's what the setup looks like, summarized (I basically just do this to make things easier for myself, so that I don't have to keep rereading your OP in order to keep track of the current version of the setup:

Town: (variant) Neighborizer, 1-shot Gunsmith, Weak Doctor, Universal Backup, Tracker, 5 VT
Scum: Rolecop, Backup Rolecop, Goon (relevant rules: daytalk, can action+kill)

The first thing to note is that some roles are much more powerful than others. When balancing a setup, first you try to get it approximately town/scum balanced and then you work on the finer details. If we're only looking at approximate balance, we can assume that the less powerful roles are dwarfed by the more powerful ones, and thus balancing the setup on the more powerful ones alone will get things approximately right.

In this case, some of the town's roles are fairly weak ones. A Neighbourizer is not all that strong of a role for its night action (although it's fun to play with!), and I'm not sure you can conclude much from the fact that the player has the role either (statistically, neighbourizers are usually town, but then players as a whole are also usually town, so I'm not sure if the mere fact of being a neighbourizer makes a player more or less likely scum). Universal Backup is best seen as a protective role (it doesn't protect the player, but it does protect their power); it's equivalent to preventing the first death of a power role. Tracker is typically only really useful if it scans the scum making the kill, in which case that's normally enough to frame the scum, but scanning anyone else rarely gives much useful evidence. A neat mathematical fact is that (if scum kill randomly, which is not the case especially with Rolecops around) the increasing chance over time that the Tracker has to find the killer is exactly counterbalanced by the decreasing chance over time that the Tracker has of still being alive, which would normally mean that the Tracker had a 1/13 chance of hitting per night phase in the game, or around 4½/13 (N5 investigative results are only about half as powerful due to the chance that either the game is over, or that it's lylo and the investigator has to win a 1v1 against the scum they're accusing). In this case, the Universal Backup saves the first power role from being lost to a death, which will be on N2 on average (half the town is power roles), so we can up the Tracker's usefulness to 1/13+1/11+1/9+1/9+½/9 = about a 44% chance of catching scum, if aiming randomly. I'll call that around half a confirmation, because it's going to be aimed better than randomly.

In terms of the more powerful roles, we have a Weak Doctor and a 1-shot Gunsmith. The Gunsmith shot is almost certainly going to confirm its target, if not immediately, later in the game. If the Gunsmith scans town they'll get a useful "no gun" confirmation. If they scan scum, they'll get a truthful "gun" confirmation, but most of the scumteam can claim out of it. However, once a massclaim happens (probably in lylo), someone's going to point out that a rolecop in this setup is almost certainly scum (and it's a scum-leaning role in the first place), so the target's probably going to be caught out and lynched. (Scum could maybe fakeclaim, but in practice, most don't, and they don't have enough information to know what claims would work, so it's not worth trying to take that into account.) So with the Tracker and Gunsmith, we have a total of 1½ confirmations. The Weak Doctor is the best role here, getting a confirmation every night it survives and scans town. (Oddly, it doesn't want to scan scum. This confirms one scum to the town if properly breadcrumbed, but costs them a mislynch in most situations; getting 1 scum at the cost of 2 lynches is close to the typical town lynching performance anyway, so the power role hardly helped in that scenario. The exception is if town block a kill using the protective part of the same role; then scanning scum gets a confirmation too.) I think it's reasonable to expect that the Weak Doctor could confirm three townies entirely by itself (less is possible, but more is definitely also possible), especially with the Universal Backup around to potentially inherit the role if it would die early. It's also self-confirming because it's very hard to fakeclaim.

Do the Mafia power roles rein in town power at all? Well, they make it more likely that scum will shoot a power role on night 2 and later. That makes the Tracker a little less powerful, and increases the chance that the Weak Doctor can be stopped early, but not by that much. Actually, the main benefit Mafia get from this is that if they manage to shoot an investigative, then even if the investigative is "saved" by the Universal Backup, town at least can't draw any useful investigative results on the night that the investigative actually died; and the rolecops increase the chance of that happening. However, it's not that powerful for scum (especially with the natural delay that comes from using a rolecop, in which you can't usefully act on the results until the night after); it's maybe worth minus half a confirmation by letting the scum remove power roles more efficiently.

In total, I make this about 4 confirmations' worth of town power. The normal balance point for a Mini is about 3, so I suspect that this is townsided. Most of the problem here is not the high number of town power roles (5 isn't all that rare in a MIni), but rather the fact that town have a Weak Doctor (a very powerful role in its own right), plus the possibility of a backup to save it (especially if it dies early). There's also some amount of swing, in that the setup's balance depends heavily on the skill of the player who gets the Weak Doctor power; if the role is played badly town don't have much of a chance.

My suggestions to balance the setup are to either nerf the Weak Doctor (either via a modifier that makes it less powerful, such as limiting the shots, or via replacing it with a different town power role that's less powerful), or to replace the Universal Backup with a VT (which weakens the Weak Doctor considerably and the Tracker slightly) or with a role-specific backup of one of the weaker roles (or of a role that isn't in the setup). Note that if you replace the Universal Backup with a Backup Neighbourizer specifically , you're going to need to change the variant Neighbourizer to a Normal one to avoid having two greylist roles in the setup.


By the way, I have a couple of rules questions that are confusing me. One is what happens if the Universal Backup sees a 1-shot role die. Does the role get inherited even if the shot was used? If so, does the shot get recharged or not? The other is about what happens if two town power roles die on the same night (the Weak Doctor can end up dying at the same time that scum shoot another power role). The first question isn't answered by NAR, as it isn't a resolution order question. The second is a resolution order question, but one that's outside the normal sorts of situations that NAR deals with; I
believe
the answer is that the scum kill resolves after the Weak Doctor by tiebreak and thus the Weak Doctor role is inherited, but I'm not sure. As both of these relate to Universal Backup corner cases, it may well be that replacing the Universal Backup is the simplest course of action here.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:42 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

Whoa thanks hm I can 100% see what you mean by weak doctor being swing and I agree with every single one of your points

If weak doctor dies and scum hit pr I was going to give weak doctor to the UB

If UB gets a power role that has "shots" it'll act like it was never used aka if the 1 shot gunsmith uses it's charge the UB would get 1 shot again

So how about changing the weak doctor to odd night or 3 shot?
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:05 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Odd Night is probably going to be about right. The town are about one confirmation ahead of where they should be, and forcing the Weak Doctor to miss their N2 action is thus going to put the game back to balanced. (Probably it would be slightly scumsided without the Neighbourizer, but more communication in a game tends to make it more townsided regardless of who has the communication, unless it's entirely within scum of the same faction.) I'd be happy to balance-approve with the Weak Doctor changed to Odd Night.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:39 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

So changes in total:

Make weak doctor odd night.
Change "Killed N1 etc" to Died Night 1
Change prod rule to:
> I will prod after 48 hours of not posting, and replace after a further 24 hours or immediately on a third prod.
> Prod dodges do not count as posting for the purpose of activity rules.

change the mod color to
Purple
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:40 am

Post by xSoniaNevermindx »

Oh and post in the Role PM you can add someone to the neighborhood and get rid of someone in the same night.

Am I missing anything.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:06 am

Post by callforjudgement »

That looks good to me. I'll need to see the changes before approving the setup.

@Antihero: I think you're missing that there are no roles here that can interfere with a Weak Doctor investigation, and that will become apparent to the town before too long (at massclaim if not before). This setup has a lot of role information that's not immediately as useful to the town as they'd want, but which becomes useful in retrospect later in the game. That makes the game slightly more scumsided than if they had the information immediately, but significantly more townsided than if they couldn't rely on it at all.
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