mhsmith0's Large Normal Review
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Worst case:
for red: bp lynched D1, goon and roleblocker shot N1, they lose
for blue: bp lynched D1, strongman shot by red or a vig, traitor endgamed N1
for town: VT lynched D1 (have to think a PR wouldn't be, except maybe the BP), 2-3 PRs shot N1 (4 possible but at some point let's not go nuts), D2 down to (let's say)
Vig
Tracker
Hider
1-shot BP
5 vts
Basically any team has the potential to get crushed early on. There's a big incentive for scum teams NOT to cross-kill (and a BP being on both teams is a hint that the other team might have one as well), but obviously scum could cross-kill anyway (whether on purpose or not). Scum need to not get hit by cross-killing or vigs and to at least achieve occassional mislynches (lynching other scum team also works). Town need to either get helped by cross-kills or have solid scum-hunting or night actions.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Firebringer
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I really think 4 kills in one night makes things go too far.
I think you should probably take out the 1 shot strongman big and replace it with something else.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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The real question is how realistic 4 kills per night would be, given:
1) A doctor
2) Four 1-shot BPs
3) Likely kill overlapping
I might mull over swapping out the 1-shot strongman vig, but IMO that's a role that likely holsters early on until there's a clear and obvious target. And obviously vig or strongman vig could die early.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Firebringer
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I mean unrealistic, probably but still is a lot of possible deaths.In post 27, mhsmith0 wrote:The real question is how realistic 4 kills per night would be, given:
1) A doctor
2) Four 1-shot BPs
3) Likely kill overlapping
I might mull over swapping out the 1-shot strongman vig, but IMO that's a role that likely holsters early on until there's a clear and obvious target. And obviously vig or strongman vig could die early.
I would say never count out the unexpected.
Things in games never seem to go how you want or vision them to go.
I don't know what you would swap the 1 shot strongman out for, but I definitely think theres too much potential killing even though it is massively curved with other roles. Not so sure what to do there, don't think the answer is to add more protection. Maybe delay the 1 shot strongman? Make it a night 2 action?Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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I don't know that I'd explicitly make it night 2, but I'm fine with adding a "not night 1" modifier to the 1-shot strongman vig.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mhsmith0
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Frankly, I'm increasingly convinced that people who rand 1/2 shot PR's blow their shots too early, and that's part of why town win rates are so bad with 1-2 shot roles. So I'm fine with basically forcing the 1-shot not to blow it N1.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Firebringer
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I have never heard of a modifier for "not night 1" to be honest. I don't know if that will fly a normal modifier? If we can allow that, I do suggest since I think that will reduce the swing in the game.
What are your thoughts about changing Hider to Follower?Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- mhsmith0
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I'm ok w follower instead of hider. Enough killing roles here that it's not a cheap guilty or the like.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mhsmith0
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I could slap on an even night one shot modifier if needed to the strongman vig, that gets rid of any possible issues with a simple "not n1" modifier.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- Firebringer
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I think thats fine.
I think that would be a decent balanced setup.
Mykonian any additional thoughts on the roles?
@Mhsmith you should probably make your openning posts.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- mykonian
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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blue is a lot weaker than red, yes, I don't think that's particulary worrying.
To a certain point the amount of scum in the setup is offset by a strong role (the vig). That does mean that if you want to use it that way and get to a somewhat workable start, all or all but the traitor should be soft to him. After that, the strongman vig isn't super needed but you might like it anyway. Town would still be on the weaker side, I think. Follower, tracker is alright, doc is very nice to have, but that's it. I'd want an extra role there.
So balance wise I think you need to cut from scum, probably add a little on towns side. But the first is more important, given how close town starts out to having a game where scum have the ability to steer lynches quite a bit.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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Draft opening posts:
In post 0, mhsmith0 wrote:Welcome to Large Normal xxx!
Your moderator is mhsmith0 and your backup moderator is xxx. This setup has been reviewed by Firebringer, Cogito Ergo Sum, and mykonian for normalcy and balance.
Playerlist:
Spoiler: Living Players
Spoiler: Dead Players
Spoiler: Event History
wrt announcing whether it's multi-ball, some large normals do, some don't, and I'm not especially inclined to announce it barring an explicitly good reason to do soIn post 1, mhsmith0 wrote:General Site Rules that we all pretty much know:- If you have something that you need to communicate with me boldyour text or I cannot guarantee I will see it.
- As the MOD I reserve the right to modkill or force-replace players as I see fit.
- If you feel I have erred send me a PM and let me know.
- That said, do not bring disagreements with me into the thread. That is what the PM is for. The same goes for disagreements with other players.
- Do not use invisible or in some way encrypted fonts or typing.
- Follow all the site rules. Play to your wincon but above all play to have fun. Do not ruin the game for others.
General game rules:- I will use the colour #FFAA00. This is my color and only my color. Don't use it.
- A lynch is reached when a majority of all players (half rounded down plus one) are voting for the same target.
- If a majority is not reached by the deadline, a No Lynch will occur.
- You may vote No Lynch in the same way that you vote for a lynch. Once a majority has voted for a no lynch the day immediately ends.
- Abuse of an infinite no-lynch/no-kill loop will not be tolerated. Do not even contemplate it.
- Votes must be written in boldasVote: Playeror use the VOTE: Player tag. Votes that are not tagged will not be counted.
- Votes in quotes, spoiler tags or otherwise hidden will also not be counted.
- Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.
- Unvotes are helpful, but not necessary. Let me know if I make an error in vote counts and I will correct them.
- I will try and do vote counts often but if you want one just let me know.
- As the MOD I will keep communication down to the absolute minimum possible (aside from vote counts and the like). I do not want to influence the game itself – that is for the players to do.
- This is a closed setup. The setup has been reviewed for normalcy and balance.
- Flips will have full role revealed (I will essentially post the PM you received on your flip with the obvious required reductions)
Game Flow:- The Game will begin and the thread will be unlocked after 10 players confirm via PM.
- Please announce if you are going on V/LA. I prefer this announced in thread unless there is a specific reason not to.
- If you have not posted for 48 hours you will receive a prod. If you do not post within 24 hours of a prod you will be replaced.
- Three prods will result in being replaced.
- The first two day phases will last a maximum of 14 days. Day Three will last a maximum of 12 days, Day Four a maximum of 10 days, and all subsequent Days Phases no more than 8 days.
- Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. Starting on Night Three, I will accept speed deadlines if ALL players (including those without night actions) ask for it via PM.
- You may communicate as normal during the twilight phase until I close the thread but votes/un-votes will not count.
- Extensions may be granted for replacements or extenuating circumstances.
- A missed Night Action will result in a No Action.
- The game will end when all threats to town have been eliminated or that is not possible.
- A single player may potentially perform up to two actions per night phase. This means that, for instance, a scum player may use an active ability AND kill a target player on the same night.
- A single player may potentially perform up to two actions per night phase. This means that, for instance, a scum player may use an active ability AND kill a target player on the same night.
- Day talk is active.
- If you must replace out, PM me privately and stop posting in thread.
Spoiler: At least one player will receive the following role PMShowhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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So I get the sense that numbers are part of the issue, so how about this:
19 players
Red Mafia
Goon
1-shot bp
Odd night Roleblocker
Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
1-shot bp
Odd night ninja / Even night strongman (given blue mafia is weaker, I don't see why this role should be nerfed, especially given that there's only a single tracker anyway)
Town (13 total)
Vig
1-shot novice strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet per night)
Tracker
Innocent Child
1-shot bp
7 vts
Normalcy:
Non-whitelisted roles:
1-shot novice strongman vig: Novice/strongman are both non-white listed modifiers (the latter whitelisted for anti-town), but neither is blacklisted
Balance:
Town has just over 2/3 the number of players, and the scum teams are against each other, so I wouldn't think that scum should necessarily have a strong thread presence. I swapped IC for hider mainly because with all those bullets flying around, it'd be a pretty swingy sort of role with a lot of potential to get shot N1 even with a correct hide. I want to say that this is pretty balanced; what do you guys think?Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mykonian
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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that was really not what I saidIn post 37, mhsmith0 wrote:So I get the sense that numbers are part of the issue, so how about this:
From what I can see, that adds an IC for a hider, and a VT. Those aren't changes on the order of magnitude balance is affected here by the 2 scumteams and a vig. It's rather 1 am right now, but I'm still having the same issue with it (the fact that the vig doesn't have free reign, and moreso than normal games multiball has a history of being scumsided).Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.- mhsmith0
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Firebringer was the one talking numbers, so I was reacting to his commentary. Wrt town/scum sided, simply adding vts SHOULD I think help with balance, though obviously I don't have a great sense of what is exactly the right numbers here.
I may do some comparisons to prior large normals on this front. Intuitively I'd think it's ok balance wise but obv am not sure.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mykonian
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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4 disappear every day/night cycle initially. I forget what it came down on and then again, it's a single vig and you don't know where it disappears, but you'd have to add ~3 townies for another day in lategame. And in terms of that, it wasn't too bad (given there's a vig) giving town quite a couple of shots at hitting scum before they lose, and to a certain point even when town is going well if they still lose despite lynches the vig is going to be to blame, which is fine: that's just people playing. So yes, you could give town a full extra day if you want, but you'd have to be more heavyhanded than this.In post 39, mhsmith0 wrote:simply adding vts SHOULD I think help with balance
The basic problem multiball has is that townies disappear twice as fast as scum. The vig happily covers for that, balancing out how good/poor the town on the final day looks towards what you would normally have. I mean that scum do tend to gun for unlynchables while town lynch in the scummiest players. If one gets to kill faster than the other, you end up with a better or worse town as the days go on. Having scum then have a way out while the town made the correct move undermines your own good work. A vig kill on a mafia BP is going to be huge, for one, the lynch pool doesn't get vetted, the scum still get their numerical superiority the next day as 2 townies disappear. It's worse than a doc protect in a normal 3:13 game because the issues multiball have (scum losing one kill, potentially having to face another lynch if something else happens, compared to losing 2 town for your lynch), and the vig has only a limited time to do it's job for you. That the traitor gets a bp: sure, it's a weak role, alright to balance for it. Scum doesn't need the help here against kills of all things.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.- Cogito Ergo Sum
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Cogito Ergo Sum YARR!
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I mostly agree with myk. The current set-up has most of the power concentrated nightkills and the fact that there are three 1-shot BPs among the scum means that it's going to be tough on town.
My personal opinion is that moderators tend to cuddle their scum teams much too much, so I'd get rid of the two non-traitor BPs. You could also add more town power but it'll be harder to arrive at an elegant set-up that way.Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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So that would give us:
Red Mafia
Goon
Goon
Odd night Roleblocker
Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
Goon
Odd night ninja / Even night strongman
Town (13 total)
Vig
1-shot novice strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet ONLY per night)
Tracker
Innocent Child
1-shot bp
7 vts
I suspect it's a touch town-sided, but I don't really have an issue with it, since there's going to be tremendous swing given the full vig, and that doctor/tracker could easily do nothing or be counter-productive.Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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Basic Role PM's (for flips, with redactions - other role PMs to be made after setup is finalized)
VT:
Welcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a!Vanilla Townie
Abilities
You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to discover the truth.
Win Condition:
You win when all threats are eliminated to the town and at least one town member is still alive.
Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignment
Red Mafia Goon
Blue Mafia GoonWelcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a treacherous!Red Mafia Goon
Abilities
You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.
You may communicate with your{REDACTED}during the day as well as each night here.
You may also perform your factional kill each night.
Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.
Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignmentWelcome to Mini Normal 1843! You are a treacherous!Blue Mafia Goon
Abilities
You have your voice and your vote. Use them well to confuse town and distort truth.
You may communicate with your{REDACTED}during the day as well as each night here.
You may also perform your factional kill each night.
Win Condition:
You win when all other factions have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from happening.
Here is the game thread. Please confirm via PM with your role name and alignmentShowhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?- mykonian
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I think it looks fine as is.
Still a lot of deaths for first few days assuming vigi and both scum teams are alive.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- Firebringer
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Bumping.In post 42, mhsmith0 wrote:So that would give us:
Red Mafia
Goon
Goon
Odd night Roleblocker
Blue Mafia
1-shot bp Traitor (knows teammates, they don't know him - can't be recruited, endgamed if/when teammates die)
Goon
Odd night ninja / Even night strongman
Town (13 total)
Vig
1-shot novice strongman vig
Doc (blocks one bullet ONLY per night)
Tracker
Innocent Child
1-shot bp
7 vts
I suspect it's a touch town-sided, but I don't really have an issue with it, since there's going to be tremendous swing given the full vig, and that doctor/tracker could easily do nothing or be counter-productive.
I think only thing I don't like about this is a full vig.
But everything else looks fine.
It is a bit townsided but considering two scum teams, that is definitely not a bad thing.
I approve this right now. Let me know any changes.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown- mhsmith0
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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Yeah I'll do OP and role Pms this weekendShowhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.
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