JaeReed's Mini Normal Review

[Nexus]

1. Will be ready to run the game when I get to the top of the list
2. 13 players
3. Shouldn't be necessary
4. No prior modding experience or other modding commitments

Not sure if you want Rules and such in a separate PM but I have them all here so I put them below in spoilers.

Spoiler: Rule Post (includes Sample PM)

General Rules

All site rules are to be followed.
You may not quote any private mod communication, nor may you pretend to do so. This includes but is not limited to your Role PM, or anything posted in a PT by the mod. Paraphrasing is okay. If you are unsure on whether something has been sufficiently paraphrased please err on the side of caution and run it by me first.
You may directly quote from the game thread into any PT you have been provided for the game (such as the scum thread), but you may not quote from the PT into the main thread. You may, however, use your PT to draft a post with the intent to post it in the main thread, so long as you do not directly quote it when making the transition.
Discussing this game outside of moderator provided communication is forbidden. This includes contacting any other player via PM, Skype, or any other means to discuss anything game related.
Using provable randomness is forbidden. Saying you rolled a dice is fine; using dice tags is not.
If you have the ability to edit your posts, please refrain from doing so.
Do not attempt to impersonate the mod. I’ll be using

blue

as my mod color, so please avoid using it.
Do not be a dick. Having one is acceptable.

Activity Rules

After 48 hours of inactivity I will prod. You will then have 24 hours to post in thread before I begin searching for a replacement.
You can receive up to 3 prods; if it exceeds this I will begin searching for a replacement.
Naked prod dodges will not reset the timer. You must include some kind of game related content with your post.
Weekends will count as 1 day for activity purposes. This will not affect the deadline timer.
Prod timers will not reset overnight.
Please PM me when announcing V/LA as an extra precaution in case I miss it. If you have regular V/LA periods please make me aware of this pre-game.

Setup & Mechanics

This setup was reviewed by x for normalcy and balance.
There are

10 town

and

3 mafia

aligned players.
Day phases will be 14 days (2 weeks) long, and night phases will be 2 days (48 hours) long.
Extensions will be granted in the case of replacements, or site downtime. They will not be granted just because you can’t reach a consensus.
Lynches are based off simple majority (half the living players + 1, rounded down) voting to lynch someone. If no majority is reached by deadline, or a simple majority votes no lynch, then a no lynch will occur. At evens, half the living players is sufficient to no lynch.
Twilight begins when a lynch occurs, and lasts until I lock the thread for the flip. During this time, you may still post, including the player who has just been lynched. However, no votes or unvotes will be counted in this time.
By default, scum possess day chat. They also may use any abilities they may have along with their factional abilities on the same night.
This game uses Natural Action Resolution.

Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Role PMs

x2
Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Goon

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your abilities are:

1 shot Strongman

– You may perform this along with your factional kill in order to bypass any protective or roleblocking abilities that would otherwise prevent your kill from succeeding.

1 shot Rolecop

– You may choose a player to investigate at night for what role they are.

1 shot Roleblocker

– You may choose a player to prevent from using their night actions that night.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

x5
Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Doctor

.
During the night you may target one player to protect them from being killed that night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Jack of All Trades

.
Your abilities are:

1 shot Bulletproof

– You may activate this at night to make yourself impervious to one killing action that night.

1 shot Jailkeeper

– You may choose a player to jail at night, preventing any actions by them, or on them during that night phase.

1 shot Gunsmith

– You may choose a player to investigate for a gun that night. Possible results are “Has a gun”, “Does not have a gun”, and “No result”.
You may activate only one ability per night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town 2-Shot Follower

.
During the night you may target one player to learn what type of action, if any, they performed. Possible results are “No Action”, “Blocking”, “Protective”, “Jailkeeping”, “Investigative”, “Killing”, “Miscellaneous”, and “No Result”.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Universal Backup Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Mod info

Setup

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Jack of All Trades (1 shot strongman, 1 shot rolecop, 1 shot roleblocker)

Town Doctor
Town 2 shot Follower
Town Jack of All Trades (1 shot bulletproof, 1 shot jailkeeper, 1 shot gunsmith)
Town Universal Backup Neighbour
Town Neighbour
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Possible Results

For Follower possible results are “No Action”, “Blocking”, “Protective”, “Jailkeeping”, “Role Investigative”, "Action Investigative", “Killing”, “Miscellaneous”, and “No Result”.
For Gunsmith possible results are "Wields a Gun", and "Does not wield a Gun".
For Rolecop possible results are "Vanilla", "Jack of All Trades", "Neighbour" "Universal Backup Neighbour", "2 Shot Follower", "Doctor"

**unsure if rolecop should return all the JOAT's abilities or just that they're a JOAT, I feel like since the actual role is JOAT and they don't return things like alignments that the finer details of the exact abilities should be left out?**

Forgot to include that if possible I'd prefer this as first post rather than rules being first. Not sure if that's allowed? Also just realized I might have needed full formatting in the last one - I was thinking of using list for the rules in the actual thread but didn't bother putting in the formatting here because I thought it wouldn't matter too much for the review? I can redo it with the full formatting if you like?

Welcome to Mini x!

Player List

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Asterisk denotes a prod (*)

Alive

Spoiler:

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Dead

Spoiler:

None yet!

Modkilled

Spoiler:

Hopefully none ever

Major Events

Spoiler:

Lynches, nightkills, modkills…

Vote Counts

Spoiler:

Links to all VCs for convenience

Game Topics

Spoiler:

Nice try. Wait til the end of the game.

Forgot to include that if possible I'd prefer this as first post rather than rules being first. Not sure if that's allowed? Also just realized I might have needed full formatting in the last one - I was thinking of using list for the rules in the actual thread but didn't bother putting in the formatting here because I thought it wouldn't matter too much for the review? I can redo it with the full formatting if you like?

Welcome to Mini x!

Player List

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Asterisk denotes a prod (*)

Alive

Spoiler:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Dead

Spoiler:

None yet!

Modkilled

Spoiler:

Hopefully none ever

Major Events

Spoiler:

Lynches, nightkills, modkills…

Vote Counts

Spoiler:

Links to all VCs for convenience

Game Topics

Spoiler:

Nice try. Wait til the end of the game.

[mhsmith0]

So this is basically five town prs against one scum pr (and day talk), with some of the town prs weak, and towns power focused largely (though not entirely) on kill prevention.

I'd also note that towns power seems to coordinate very well; only real wrench between the investigative and protection focus is the one-shot jk.

[mhsmith0]

Probably the first question I'd ask before thinking on balance is, what kind of game do you want to run? It seems like you want a somewhat diffuse set of town power that still works well together, and somewhat limited scum power to counteract it.

[fferyllt]

Checking in. I'll be back with comments in a few hours.

[JaeReed]

Probably the first question I'd ask before thinking on balance is, what kind of game do you want to run? It seems like you want a somewhat diffuse set of town power that still works well together, and somewhat limited scum power to counteract it.

Um mostly I wanted a few things in the setup and tried to design around that.

Neighbours & day chat were the two main things I wanted. I kinda wanted the focus to be a little heavier on scumhunting with some potential for help if town aren't doing quite so well.

As far as secondary things...
Really didn't want a vig or follow the cop to be a thing, and wanted scum to have some bussing flexibility.

I'm wondering if the doc should even be in the setup tbh. Paired with the Uni Backup Neighbour that could be awful for scum. Like, the worst case scenario I'm imagining here is either lolhammer on the doc D1 or scum nks doc N1 only to have it end up in the town Neighbours' hands, where there's potential for 2 good players to decide what to do.
But then there's also the worst case town scenario where the neighbourhood doesn't turn into an essential masonry, or the uni backup inherits basically nothing from the joat or something. Not entirely sure how to treat the universal backup if the first PR to die used up all their shots. Do they inherit the 0 shot PR or do they inherit the next PR that has something left?

[mastin2]

First question: can the mafia both kill and action?
Second question: how would you publicly respond to a question about non-mafia chat? That is, if someone asked you a question along the lines of, "MOD: Would any hypothetical neighborhood/masonry also have daychat?", how would you respond?
Third, how will you handle the backup inheriting power from a slot that has used up a shot? That is, what if the follower has used one shot? Both shots? Yet is the first to die. What if the JOAT has used one power, two powers, all three powers, and yet is the first to die? (Unlikely as that would be.)
Fourth, does the strongman bypass the BP?
Fifth, what roles get which results to the follower? For instance, what does activating the BP show as to the follower?
Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former. (If you want the latter, then use "cause the actions to fail" rather than "prevent the actions". This is NOT a semantics difference, as the altered wording alters the effect for the game.)

Seventh, on balance:
I think the game as-is is swingy, but balanced: all the mafia's strength is placed in a single PR. If they protect that PR, then they can shut down the town entirely and even produce some extreme paranoia which could lead to the town self-destructing and imploding. If they fail to protect that PR, then they are placed in an incredible uphill struggle.

On the other hand, all the town's strength is gated: the follower has only two shots, and while it can confirm some abilities (which will not confirm alignment, simply confirming the role), the only guilty it can get is by successfully tracking the kill. Follower is like a tracker lite in power, and having it be limited further reduces its power, such that it is only a marginally useful role.

The JOAT has a gunsmith result which they know to be useful, but its other powers are situational. The activated BP with a doctor in the game means they have no way of knowing what stops a kill. Similarly for the jailkeep: was it the doc protect, the jail protect, or a jail roleblock? So while the JOAT's abilities are strong, they do not synchronize well with the other town roles, with the potential to interfere with the follower and the doctor.

The doctor is in fact a strong role, but given the lack of synchronization, I'm fine with it.

The only role in question here is the backup. I think the setup is balanced both with, and without, it, within the margin of error. Its presence does increase swing a bit (the less roles, the less swing; the less complex a role, the less swing), but not by too terribly much. Obviously, the more town power means the more likely the town is to win, but the reason I say the setup is both balanced with, and without, the role, is that it's balanced depending on your setup philosophy.

If you believe that towns should be forced to think more and that they only need a few power roles in order to win, then you can probably lose the backup: the town will have a difficult time, because their PRs are all gated and lack good synchronization, but they still have a fair chance of winning, if they use their roles in a reasonable way and they scumhunt relatively effectively.

If you believe that towns inherently suck, that as the stats show towns literally NEED PRs in order to win (because so many mountainous games end in a scum win), then the backup is probably fine: it gives the town wiggle room to fuck up, as it were, and yet, they're not being handed a guaranteed win; they're not being given a guiding hand towards victory, as it were. They still have to connect the dots correctly, and while they have a greater degree of freedom, because a kill/lynch on a PR hurts them a lot less, they still must be somewhat-competent in order to eliminate the scum.

Again, I can't say there's any way to make the game fully balanced. No matter what, it's gonna have swing. No matter which option you choose, you're gonna have players complaining in the postgame. But I subscribe to the philosophy of "close enough", and "as good as it can get", and I think that you're either already at, or really close to being at, that level, depending on which of the two you'd prefer.

[mastin2]

I also had the thought: one potential way of bridging the two would be to gate the backup as well.
This would probably be a modification to the extent where it might not strictly speaking be "normal", but you have the capacity to use one non-normal role anyway.

What I had the thought of is that maybe the backup is one-shot: if the doctor dies, it becomes a 1x-doctor. If the JOAT dies, it can use any of the JOAT's abilities/any of the JOAT's unused abilities (depending on your answer to question #3)...but can only use the Joat powers ONCE, even if all three were available.
If it inherits an unused 2x follower, then it loses one of those shots to become a 1x-follower.

I'm not quite sure if this is something that you (or for that matter, the other reviewers) would want, and it'd be tricky to word right (not to mention, answer when questioned about), but to my mental calculations, it does give a good bridge between worlds: it's not something that will necessarily be believed, it's not a role which gives the town a huge boost, but it is a role which gives them some leeway if they get an early disadvantage.

[mastin2]

Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former.

Also, equally as important: if you're ASKED about whether an X-shot role being blocked would be refunded, how would you respond?

[JaeReed]

First question: can the mafia both kill and action?
Second question: how would you publicly respond to a question about non-mafia chat? That is, if someone asked you a question along the lines of, "MOD: Would any hypothetical neighborhood/masonry also have daychat?", how would you respond?
Third, how will you handle the backup inheriting power from a slot that has used up a shot? That is, what if the follower has used one shot? Both shots? Yet is the first to die. What if the JOAT has used one power, two powers, all three powers, and yet is the first to die? (Unlikely as that would be.)
Fourth, does the strongman bypass the BP?
Fifth, what roles get which results to the follower? For instance, what does activating the BP show as to the follower?
Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former. (If you want the latter, then use "cause the actions to fail" rather than "prevent the actions". This is NOT a semantics difference, as the altered wording alters the effect for the game.)

1) Yeah, I have it in the rules but should probably give it its own line since it's just kinda tacked on to the bit about scum having day chat by default.

2) Not sure; people can interpret mod responses in weird ways sometimes so I'd have to be careful about it since it could potentially confirm the existence of a neighbourhood. Perhaps if I changed the bit about scum having daychat in the rules to just be "Daychat is enabled by default" so I could just quote that? The other option is responding with something like "Any and all PTs that may exist for this game would have daychat by default." but I feel like that might soft confirm neighbourhoods/masonry for some?

3) Wiki said something to the effect of the shots wouldn't be refunded usually and the person wouldn't be told how many shots were left which I think is ass, personally, so if I could I'd probably have shots not refunded but inform the backup how many shots are remaining? It's kinda bastard to not know stuff about your own role, and inheriting the role would then make it the UB's role so imo that's the fair thing to do? Any results (like from the gs) wouldn't be forwarded though. Idunno if I'd be allowed to do that though? I wouldn't want them to basically become a backup doc into late-game, so if all shots are used they'd just inherit in a named townie kinda manner, I think? Not sure if that's strictly normal either tho.

4) Yup

5) Mafia JOAT: Strongman - performed a killing action.
Role cop - performed a role investigative action.
Roleblocker - performed a blocking action.

Town JOAT: Gunsmith - performed a role investigative action. (I *think* that's what gs would fall under?)
Bulletproof - performed a protective action.
Jailkeeper - performed a jailkeeping action.

Doctor - performed a protective action.

6) Not refunded. Didn't think about the wording that way, so will have to change it.

[JaeReed]

I also had the thought: one potential way of bridging the two would be to gate the backup as well.
This would probably be a modification to the extent where it might not strictly speaking be "normal", but you have the capacity to use one non-normal role anyway.

What I had the thought of is that maybe the backup is one-shot: if the doctor dies, it becomes a 1x-doctor. If the JOAT dies, it can use any of the JOAT's abilities/any of the JOAT's unused abilities (depending on your answer to question #3)...but can only use the Joat powers ONCE, even if all three were available.
If it inherits an unused 2x follower, then it loses one of those shots to become a 1x-follower.

I'm not quite sure if this is something that you (or for that matter, the other reviewers) would want, and it'd be tricky to word right (not to mention, answer when questioned about), but to my mental calculations, it does give a good bridge between worlds: it's not something that will necessarily be believed, it's not a role which gives the town a huge boost, but it is a role which gives them some leeway if they get an early disadvantage.

I actually really like this idea since it closes off my main issues with the UB's existence punishing scum for playing well/rewarding town for playing bad. Probably still wouldn't refund the shots in this situation

because I'm a bitch

. Two gunsmith clear/guilty potential is too strong for me to justify it, tbh. But then ehhh idunno because being 1 shot uni backup and then getting a role with no shots left would

suck

.

[JaeReed]

Sixth, if an ability is blocked, is the shot refunded or is it lost? The wording of "preventing" implies the former.

Also, equally as important: if you're ASKED about whether an X-shot role being blocked would be refunded, how would you respond?

Publicly? "No comment."
Privately by one of the roles in question? "The shot would not be refunded."

I feel like that's one of the things that only the roles in question need to know, especially as again, people read into the smallest of things.

[mhsmith0]

Goon, Goon, JOAT (strongman/role cop/roleblocker)
vs Doctor / 2-shot follower / JOAT (bulletproof / jk / gunsmith) / UB Neighbor / Neighbor

So a few thoughts:

1) So I'm actually going to somewhat disagree with mastin's take about town power being un-synchronized. I'd agree that 2-shot follower limits its ability (my thought was it's better than a tracker due to reporting ability type instead of where someone went especially in the absence of powers that could confuse a follower like vig or scum doc), but constructed as is, there's really strong potential power for the doctor to protect basically any outed PR (follower or JOAT or neighbor) with very limited ability for scum to counteract it (a single strongman shot and a single roleblocker and a single role cop to maybe get lucky and find the doc). I don't think it's crazy to imagine a scenario where the JOAT gets a gunsmith guilty on a goon, and then is virtually unkillable as he absorbs a N2 bullet with the BP and doc protect, and then the doc still has ability to save, and the BP is still on, and the JK shot can be used.

That there are multiple potential ways to stop a kill is I think a pro-town aspect; it's true that it doesn't create an automatic clear or guilty, but it's also true that the kill-stopping powers added together create a reasonably likely scenario of two kill stops, which IS (IMO) a really strong pro-town outcome.

Overall, I think that town's power is actually highly synchronized, with no real false guilties or false innocents for the follower (except for the 1-shot role cop getting followed maybe), and a doctor that can potentially protect either the follower or the JOAT, each of which have a chance (though not very high) of getting a guilty from PR usage.

I'd say that town's overall power in terms of individual roles isn't super high, but I'd say that the power all work together pretty reasonably well, while the scum power is pretty limited in its ability to stop town (I don't think I really see how the scum JOAT can single handedly shut down town since it gets one shot each of three powers, which I think are fundamentally aligned towards stopping the doctor more than other roles).

2) In terms of balance, I'd say that town is fairly unlikely to get anything super useful out of the follower, but it's certainly not impossible. The big strength for town IMO comes two-fold: first, simply that it has five PR's that don't really mesh together poorly (and town neighbors can be interesting if they mutually town-read each other, especially given a UB being in the hood), and second, that town has a realistic chance to stop two night kills and buy an extra mislynch.

Scum power essentially weakly counteracts both of town's strengths (role cop is generally useful for either finding a PR or finding a slot that can be lynched in the day if VT, which lessens the edge from having five PR's; and RB/strongman act against town's kill-stopping power). In a general sense, I like that aspect of the design, since you're not making scum completely helpless against the things that town can do, but there are distinct and meaningful edges that town has PR-wise.

3) I agree with mastin about nerfing the UB, and I think that a gated 1-shot use backup is a neat idea, and think that helps reduce its impact and potentially rewards scum for effective N1 PR hunting (whereas debatably with a full UB, a N1 on the doc actually hurts the scum team, or at best doesn't help them all that much). If the UB gets something on like N3, then having zero shots left probably isn't terrible, presuming town got something helpful from its PRs by then. If the UB only has like one shot JK or the like, then it's still something it can use.

4) One area of swing that is either a bug or a feature depending on how you see it is the scum powers being concentrated in the JOAT. An alternative would be to give each of the shots to one of the mafia, which would have the effect of making the game a bit less dependent on whether the key mafia PR is protected or lynched. I think I'd prefer the powers split up into separate one-shots for each mafia, but that's a thought kind of off the cuff, and am curious what the group and Jae think.

5) I think that a BP getting absorbed doesn't count as a night action for follower, so if a BP loses its vest, it's basically no action (or only whatever active action was taken). I'm not sure of that one though.

[mastin2]

Perhaps if I changed the bit about scum having daychat in the rules to just be "Daychat is enabled by default" so I could just quote that?

This seems to be a fine solution. It doesn't give away the existence of extra topics, but handles the question nicely.

3) Wiki said something to the effect of the shots wouldn't be refunded usually and the person wouldn't be told how many shots were left which I think is ass, personally, so if I could I'd probably have shots not refunded but inform the backup how many shots are remaining? It's kinda bastard to not know stuff about your own role, and inheriting the role would then make it the UB's role so imo that's the fair thing to do? Any results (like from the gs) wouldn't be forwarded though. Idunno if I'd be allowed to do that though?

So basically, they learn what has, and hasn't, been used, but don't learn the details of when they were used. That's definitely normal, yes.

Probably still wouldn't refund the shots in this situation

That's still fine.

But then ehhh idunno because being 1 shot uni backup and then getting a role with no shots left would suck.

The main thing you'll have to deal with here is questions in regards to the universal backup. Say, "MOD: would a theoretical universal backup role receive the original role, or the role as it was upon its death?" or something to that effect. You have the latter, it's just a matter of what you'll answer. If this situation does come up, well, it's tough luck...but keep in mind, if it comes up, that means both the JOAT and the follower lived for two nights at minimum, so by that point in time, if all the town's PRs have lived...the backup really isn't needed to give the town an advantage.

there's really strong potential power for the doctor to protect basically any outed PR (follower or JOAT or neighbor) with very limited ability for scum to counteract it (a single strongman shot and a single roleblocker and a single role cop to maybe get lucky and find the doc).

You say 'very limited', I say--especially given PR hunting and town players usually not being nearly as subtle as they should and maybe having explicitly claimed in-thread--'very likely'. Especially if the scum are smart enough to hold onto the strongman/roleblock shots N1 if they don't have any PR info. (About half of scumteams will waste those abilities early-on, and then complain post-game that they were screwed...because no duh, you wasted your abilities on shooting in the dark at a VT rather than waiting to be more informed and hit a PR.) Depending on scumteam strategy, there's literally a 50/50 chance of them using their powers precisely when they are needed to fuck the town over; a doctor claim looks a lot more suspicious if the claimed follower is nightkilled successfully for instance. Roleblocker is literally the strongest PR you can give a scumteam in a Normal (there's stats to back that up), so even one shot of it is immensely powerful (especially with no refunds); strongman's also near the top of the list in scumteam strength. There's a reason you never find full-strongmen in Normals; it's because a full strongman is stupidly powerful, so they always have a gate built in, usually in shots. (In this case, one.)

I think that town's power is actually highly synchronized, with no real false guilties or false innocents for the follower (except for the 1-shot role cop getting followed maybe)

The main thing there is, you're thinking as a moderator who knows the setup. Players don't, so they don't KNOW there's no false guilties or no false innocents. This gives the scumteam quite a bit of wiggle room to get out of a guilty (say, claiming JOAT with a vig shot--the very BP+Doc nature of the game means that a second kill not appearing makes that less absurd than it sounds), and an equal amount of wiggle room to lynch an innocent.

5) I think that a BP getting absorbed doesn't count as a night action for follower, so if a BP loses its vest, it's basically no action (or only whatever active action was taken).

The BP in this case is activated, so it does count as an action for the follower.

[mhsmith0]

So wrt the gated ub, would he get to choose which JOAT power he gets if inherited? Bp is passive, so if it's "on the first power to get used gets used", then you might inadvertently tell the ub when he was shot at. Maybe you just tell the ub which powers are available and then ask which one he wants to inherit?

[JaeReed]

I have the BP as activated, smith. I was intending it to work as only active on the night it is activated. So like, once activated, even if not shot that night, the vest would be lost. I thought that was generally how JOAT BP's work?

[mhsmith0]

I, er, uh, didn't know that...

[JaeReed]

4) One area of swing that is either a bug or a feature depending on how you see it is the scum powers being concentrated in the JOAT. An alternative would be to give each of the shots to one of the mafia, which would have the effect of making the game a bit less dependent on whether the key mafia PR is protected or lynched. I think I'd prefer the powers split up into separate one-shots for each mafia, but that's a thought kind of off the cuff, and am curious what the group and Jae think.

I put all the power on the one scum to leave a bit more flexibility in being able to bus, and also it should make it harder for scum to mess up the order of things. If each of them have one shot it's more likely that one of them will waste the rb or strongman too early, or they'll be locked in to having to read each other certain ways in order to stay alive for the required amount of nights to make use of the shots effectively.

Plus, if there happened to be a massclaim, with the shots spread out that way they could guess to strongman the protected PR, and also roleblock the other (between JOAT and follower) which I think is too much potential scum power in that situation with the shots not refunded. I mean, that's closer to a worst case scenario and unlikely to happen I think, though.

Idunno I feel like it's boxing scum out of options on reading their partners by spreading out the shots between them, but I suppose the same could be said about having one mafia be "it" for the team?

[mastin2]

So wrt the gated ub, would he get to choose which JOAT power he gets if inherited?

All of the unused ones, with the backup deciding which they get to use, is what I was assuming.

[mastin2]

Another question: will the powers of the JOATs be revealed upon their deaths?

[JaeReed]

The main thing you'll have to deal with here is questions in regards to the universal backup. Say, "MOD: would a theoretical universal backup role receive the original role, or the role as it was upon its death?" or something to that effect. You have the latter, it's just a matter of what you'll answer. If this situation does come up, well, it's tough luck...but keep in mind, if it comes up, that means both the JOAT and the follower lived for two nights at minimum, so by that point in time, if all the town's PRs have lived...the backup really isn't needed to give the town an advantage.

Yeah, that's true. I'd still feel bad for the UB in that situation for basically just being a named townie But I suppose that has nothing to do with balance.

The question being about an individual role I'd opt for "No comment." there publicly. If the UB inherited the JOAT I'd let them know they inherit the role as it was upon death, but can only use one shot still, and let them know what they have remaining. I think I will opt for the UB being one shot. It doesn't make much difference to the rest of the PRs but it shuts down playing it like a Nurse, which I think is important.

[JaeReed]

So wrt the gated ub, would he get to choose which JOAT power he gets if inherited?

All of the unused ones, with the backup deciding which they get to use, is what I was assuming.

Yeah, this.

Another question: will the powers of the JOATs be revealed upon their deaths?

The role pm would flip as written here. So yeah the powers would be revealed. As far as the UB I'd just have it flip either as "1-shot Universal Backup" or maybe "1-shot Universal Backup (inherited JOAT)" so as not to give away what role was used, if any. If I flipped the UB with the JOAT's powers I'd include them all regardless of whether they actually had those shots to choose from in the end.

[JaeReed]

If I flipped the UB with the JOAT's powers I'd include them all regardless of whether they actually had those shots to choose from in the end.

To elaborate on this... I'd do it this way because they're inheriting the ROLE, which encompasses all of the shots, regardless of if there's 0 shots left.

[mhsmith0]

Wrt the BP shot, I think I'd prefer it as a commute. Your pm makes it clear, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the JOAT or UB be lazy about reading it and thinking it's passive like BP usually is.

I'm thinking with the gated UB it's probably balanced or very close to it. Imo towns power is mainly concentrated in kill prevention and sheer number of roles (with limited investigation power), and scum have limited but existent counters against that. And that's true whether JOAT is bp or commuter.

I still haven't figured into role pms and opening post, will look at that next, but I think I'm good with it balance-wise.

[JaeReed]

So like, it'd still be listed as 1 shot jailkeeper even if the shot was used, because that was the total amount they had access to. Also because to do it any other way would be to confirm what powers were used, which then falls under directly influencing the game as a mod.

[JaeReed]

Wrt the BP shot, I think I'd prefer it as a commute. Your pm makes it clear, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the JOAT or UB be lazy about reading it and thinking it's passive like BP usually is.

I'm thinking with the gated UB it's probably balanced or very close to it. Imo towns power is mainly concentrated in kill prevention and sheer number of roles (with limited investigation power), and scum have limited but existent counters against that. And that's true whether JOAT is bp or commuter.

I still haven't figured into role pms and opening post, will look at that next, but I think I'm good with it balance-wise.

Having it as a commute locks scum out of strongmanning/roleblocking (thereby wasting the shot). Not entirely sure how that would affect the game balance-wise but something to consider when looking at that as an option. I'd almost say it's a guarantee that a JOAT commuter would partially claim after using the gs then use the commute in order to cause scum to waste whatever they have on them. It seems really powerful when thinking about it in that light.