inspectorscout's Large Normal Review

[Nexus]

Thanks!
1. I should be ready to mod when my game reaches the top of the queue.
2. My game will have 18 players.
3. Backup will be foxbird, unless she doesn't have the required experience when I hit the top of the queue. If needed, I'll be able to find someome else.
4. My modding experience is Mini Normal 1841. I currently have no modding commitments.

My setup:

===========================

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

I will be your moderator during this game! If, for some reason, I can't completely do what I have to do (i.e. regular votecounts, resolving night actions in time, ...), my awesome back-up moderator, Foxbird, will take good care of all of you!

Playerlist

Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Player 6
Player 7
Player 8
Player 9
Player 10
Player 11
Player 12
Player 13
Player 15
Player 16
Player 17
Player 18

Spoiler: Living Players

Spoiler: Dead Players

==================================

Game Rules

All Forum Rules and Guidelines should be followed, along with the following rules.

Deadlines

• Day phases will last fourteen days. The first two days may be extended by a week upon request.
  
• Night phases will last two days.

General Rules

• Do not quote your role PM, what has been said in PT's or other private communication. Paraphrasing is generally fine.
  
• Keep the game in this thread, and in the PT's you were given access to by the mod. Do not contact anyone outside of these threads about the game.
  
• This is my mod colour. Do not use it.
  
  
• Do not discuss ongoing games. Meta from finished games is fine.
  
• Do not use encrypted or hard-to-see text (including "invisible" text, text below the 50% text size option, or text hidden via BBCode (not including spoilered text)).

Activity

• If a player doesn't post in-game after a period of 72 hours, I will prod that player.
  
• If a player is prodded, that player has 48 hours to make an in-game post with actual content, not just a prod dodge. If they don't, they will be force-replaced.
  
• If a player received 3 prods and/or prod-dodges excessively, that player will be subject to a force-replace.
  
• Setting a V/LA tag alone is not accepted. Please tell me (in bold) when and for how long you will be VL/A, preferably a few days in advance. If you are going to be V/LA for longer than 1-2 weeks, you might want to request a replacement.

Votes and Lynching

• Votes must be in the format of VOTE: Player Name or
  VOTE: Player Name
  . As long as I understand who you are voting for, it's fine. If it looks like a vote, it will count as a vote.
  
• Unvoting when changing your vote is not necessary, but welcome.
  
• A player will be lynched if half of the living players +1 have voted for that player.
  
• You may vote for a
  No Lynch
  . If half of the living players vote for a No Lynch, the game will proceed to Night without a lynch.
  
• If a lynch is not achieved at deadline, no lynch will occur.
  
• The game goes to twilight once a lynch has been achieved. You may continue to post until I lock the thread.
  
• Once dead, you are no longer allowed to post in any game thread (except the dead thread) until the game is over.

Behavior

• Harassment of an individual player is NOT permitted. While this is a competitive game, no personal attacks will be tolerated.
  
• Always play to your win condition.
  
• Do not discuss this game anywhere else with anyone else unless your role allows you to. Private topics will be provided.

Breaking the rules

• If you break the rules, you will be modkilled or force-replaced (depending on the infringement).
  
• Pretending to break the rules also counts as breaking the rules.
  
• I have the right to change the rules at any time, if needed. I will notify you if this happens.

Setup

• This is a closed setup.
  
• This game is confirmed to be multiball.
  
• Mafia has daytalk.
  
• Mafia can do the factional nightkill next to their other abilities, if any.
  
• This setup has been reviewed for balance and normalcy by [insert great, perfect, very cool people here]
  
• There is at least 1 person with this role PM:

Spoiler: Sample Role PM

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Vanilla Townie.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

================
Setup:
2x White Mafia Goon
1x White Mafia Neapolitan

1x Black Mafia Goon
1x Black Mafia Neighborizer
1x Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof

1x Town Miller
1x Town Rolecop
3x Town Mason (1 masonry)
1x Town Doctor
1x Town 2-shot Vigilante
1x Town JOAT (1-shot Cop, 1-shot Jailkeeper, 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker)
4x Vanilla Townies
===============

Role PM's:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Vanilla Townie.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Miller

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town Miller.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- If a cop investigates you, they will see you as mafia.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Rolecop

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town Rolecop.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- At night, you may target a player. You will be told that player's role.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Mason

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town Mason.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a masonry with [player] and [player], who are confirmed to be town to you (and you to them). You may talk at any time [here].

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Doctor

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town Doctor.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- At night, you may target a player. That player will be protected against all killing actions that night.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town JOAT

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town JOAT.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- At night, you may use one of the following abilities:
+ 1-shot Cop: You will learn if your target is town or mafia.
+ 1-shot Jailkeeper: You will protect a player against nightkills. They will also be roleblocked.
+ 1-shot Watcher: You will see who visited your target.
+ 1-shot Tracker: You will see who your target visited.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town 2-shot Vigilante

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Town 2-shot Vigilante.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- Twice during the game, at night, you may choose to kill a player.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Black Mafia Goon

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Black Mafia Goon.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a factional kill with [name], Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof and [name], Black Mafia Neighborizer.
- You may talk with the other black mafia members here at night.

You win when your faction consists of at least half of the living players, or when nothing can prevent this from happening, AND when all members of the white mafia are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Black Mafia Neighborizer

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Black Mafia Neighborizer.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a factional kill with [name], Black Mafia Goon and [name], Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof.
- You may talk with the other black mafia members here at night.
- At night, you may add a player to your neighborhood, where you may talk at any time. Your neighborhood is [here].

You win when your faction consists of at least half of the living players, or when nothing can prevent this from happening, AND when all members of the white mafia are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a factional kill with [name], Black Mafia Neighborizer and [name], Black Mafia Goon.
- You may talk with the other black mafia members here at night.
- You will survive 1 kill attempt at night. You will not be notified when this prevented your death.

You win when your faction consists of at least half of the living players, or when nothing can prevent this from happening, AND when all members of the white mafia are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: White Mafia Goon

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a White Mafia Goon.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a factional kill with [name], White Mafia Neapolitan and [name], White Mafia Goon.
- You may talk with the other white mafia members here at night.

You win when your faction consists of at least half of the living players, or when nothing can prevent this from happening, AND when all members of the black mafia are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: White Mafia Neapolitan

Welcome to Large Normal [number]!

You are a White Mafia Neapolitan.
Abilities:
- During the day, you may vote to lynch.
- You share a factional kill with [name], White Mafia Goon and [name], White Mafia Goon.
- You may talk with the other white mafia members here at night.
- At night, You may investigate a player. You will learn if they are a Vanilla Townie or not.

You win when your faction consists of at least half of the living players, or when nothing can prevent this from happening, AND when all members of the black mafia are eliminated.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this message with your alignment and role.

=================

Action resolution:
Doctor
Neighborizer
Factional nightkill/vigilante
Neapolitan
Watcher/Tracker/cop

[Firebringer]

Hi!
First look.
This is townsided

[inspectorscout]

Hello, thank you all for reviewing!

Just a heads up: I'm currently modding a micro, and since I didn't mod 2 games already, I don't think I'm allowed to mod them concurrently.

Hi!
First look.
This is townsided

My last one started out horribly scumsided, so I'd say it's at least a bit of an improvement!
I'm looking forward to your suggestions.

[Firebringer]

2x White Mafia Goon
1x White Mafia Neapolitan

1x Black Mafia Goon
1x Black Mafia Neighborizer
1x Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof

1x Town Miller
1x Town Rolecop
3x Town Mason (1 masonry)
1x Town Doctor
1x Town 2-shot Vigilante
1x Town JOAT (1-shot Cop, 1-shot Jailkeeper, 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker)
4x Vanilla Townies

Too many PRs here.

The miller isn't going to have much impact for cop since there is only 1 shot cop and 18 players. 1/17 chance of hitting miller.
It most likely just basically confirms the miller day 1 to everyone as people who claim miller are often treated almost IC level in games.

I think too many masons in game. I think it would be better to get rid of one.
I also think you give JOAT too much power here. I would get rid of tracker or watcher.

[inspectorscout]

The miller is intended as a confirmable IC to the rolecop, rather than for the cop. I'm comfortable getting rid of the cop, even.

I don't mind making it a 2 player masonry, I'm fine with that.

If I get rid of the cop, would losing one of tracker-watcher still be required?

[Firebringer]

The miller is intended as a confirmable IC to the rolecop, rather than for the cop. I'm comfortable getting rid of the cop, even.

I don't mind making it a 2 player masonry, I'm fine with that.

If I get rid of the cop, would losing one of tracker-watcher still be required?

I would say no to getting rid of tracker/watcher if you got rid of cop.

I think the game is still a bit townsided with those changes, but I think thats okay.
Ill let other reviewers look over it.

[inspectorscout]

Okay, thanks.

What would you guys say about changing the JOAT in a PT-cop? It basically finds out if anyone is in a PT, which is a masonry, neighborhood and mafia PT. It doesn't have that much use, but it can still function as a cop of some sort. X-shot if its too strong.

[Aeronaut]

2x White Mafia Goon
1x White Mafia Neapolitan

1x Black Mafia Goon
1x Black Mafia Neighborizer
1x Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof

1x Town Miller
1x Town Rolecop
3x Town Mason (1 masonry)
1x Town Doctor
1x Town 2-shot Vigilante
1x Town JOAT (1-shot Cop, 1-shot Jailkeeper, 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker)
4x Vanilla Townies

Yeah, this is very town side, especially using the miller how you are.

I think having three masons is a lot. You have three confirmable town slots right there, and then the JOAT is doing a lot for town clearing too. And an RC. That on top of Town having a doc protect and a vig is lot.

[Aeronaut]

If you're stuck on the triple masonry, that's fine, but then I'd get rid of the RC and JOAT.

[Aeronaut]

Black maf also has an advantage over White maf too. They have one more member, AND more PRs.

[Firebringer]

Black maf also has an advantage over White maf too. They have one more member, AND more PRs.

No, they both have 3 members.
Theres just more goons white.

[Aeronaut]

oh I'm dumb

[Aeronaut]

I still think I'd change the BP to something different.

[Firebringer]

Okay, thanks.

What would you guys say about changing the JOAT in a PT-cop? It basically finds out if anyone is in a PT, which is a masonry, neighborhood and mafia PT. It doesn't have that much use, but it can still function as a cop of some sort. X-shot if its too strong.

I mean this essentially works out hurting white mafia more, where as black can just claim they are in a neighborhood. A little more unfair to them. If your going to do this I suggest starting a white in a neighborhood to weaken it a bit.

Since PT Cop isn't normal role you would have to publish full role card on flip, but it would be allowed as one of those spots.

Overall I think that would potentially give the role power neutral? (as in terms of what it replaces) I mean Watcher/Jailkeep/Tracker can all give potential guiltless on players but it really depends on who scum send out to kill and watcher is strongest for finding scum based on this. A PT cop would help for just finding a scum in general if they aren't in a claimed hood. Essentially 4/6 scum possible for finding if scum don't recruit more scum into a PT.

[Firebringer]

In terms of play a PT cop essentially could force scum to claim a hood they aren't in or claim a hood they are in and other people claim it too and then the PT cop is left with nothing.

If he finds town in PTs then it also outs say the masons or town.
Its not extremely helpful until you get down to PoE and only if nobody backs up any hood claims.

I really see no reason to X-Shot that. I think it might even be weaker than JOAT.

[inspectorscout]

So probably the best thing I can do is completely removing the rolecop - miller interaction and going on the more social side of neighborhoods and PT cop. Should some players have a pre-made neighborhood (since fire mentioned that white mafia has a disadvantage in that they don't have a neighborizer)

@aeronaut: why would you change the BP? Because of vig and NK?

[inspectorscout]

bump? If that isn't too rude

[Aeronaut]

Sorry! Will continue comments tonight

[Firebringer]

So probably the best thing I can do is completely removing the rolecop - miller interaction and going on the more social side of neighborhoods and PT cop. Should some players have a pre-made neighborhood (since fire mentioned that white mafia has a disadvantage in that they don't have a neighborizer)

That might be better since millers are inherently trusted anyways, the role cop is only there to remove all doubt and it might be better to focus on day play over that.

@Aeronaut its been a day

[inspectorscout]

A premade neighborhood with 2 white mafs and a vanilla? Most people think neighborhoods have 1 scum and I want to break that

[Aeronaut]

@Aeronaut its been a day

that it has, finals suck

but now I'm down w/ classes and will actually be here tn

[inspectorscout]

I'm not really in a rush yet, no worries. finals come before anything else.

on a side note; where is mastina?

[mastin2]

Waiting for current revisions to be given.

When I am not the first reviewer on the scene (i.e., you have discussion about what to change), I have trouble keeping up until I see what the actual changes made from the original are. (My mind's way of processing info makes it difficult to project unless I'm seeing basically the whole thing in one spot.)

In other words: I can see what the original setup is.
I can give comments on the original setup redundant with other reviewers (e.g. black mafia as posted there are strong in comparison to white mafia), but these are going to be obsolete if they don't reflect what the CURRENT setup is and I'm not sure what the CURRENT setup is.

[mastin2]

I suppose I can give a general comment though.

Inherent in multiball is swing.

It is literally impossible to get rid of swing in a multiball game. In fact, it's not even possible to reduce swing to a low level. Multiball, by its very nature, invites imbalancing the game by the slightest alteration of the gamestate, tipping the game one direction because there are simply too many variables in play. No matter the numbers, no matter how good we can get the game to be balance-wise in theory, you will never get a perfectly-balanced game.

The best we can do with multiball is get an approximation of theoretically giving each faction an equal chance. The original setup placed black mafia at a huge disadvantage. I would also agree that the town there had too much power.

In a multiball game, the town's going to need more than singleball, because town are going to be dieing on average twice as much, and PRs are going to die even MORE often than normal. They will also be exposed much easier--one key aspect of multiball is that it tends to have MUCH more large wagons form on players because

both

scum factions think they are voting the other when they're really voting...a town power role, who thanks to the large wagon is going to be forced to claim and therefore likely die.

So yes, town needs comparatively more power than normal, especially when the game's this small with two different scum factions--six scum is a LOT for an 18-player game, even divided in half. However,

even given that

, the originally-posted amount was a bit much for the town. VTs should still make up at least half of the town's numbers in a Normal game, on average. So, the town should lose at least one if not two PRs overall, and then from there reassess what PRs they have to see what their strength is versus the scum.

[inspectorscout]

2x White Mafia Goon
1x White Mafia Neapolitan

1x Black Mafia Goon
1x Black Mafia Neighborizer
1x Black Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof

3x Town Mason (1 masonry)
1x Town Doctor
1x Town 2-shot Vigilante
1x Town PT-Cop
6x Vanilla Townies

Premade neighborhood with white goon, white Neapolitan and vanilla townie

This is currently on the table.