Leonshade's Mini Normal Review

[Nexus]

Hello! In response to your questionnaire, I'd like to reply that

1. I will be ready to run my game when it gets to the top of the list;
2. I will be running a 13-player Mini Normal game;
3. I don't have a back-up mod at present, and;
4. I don't have any modding experience on the site, the only game I've modded was on a small forum that I can't find and I'm pretty sure has since been deleted.

I will be working on my setup, I will forward it to you when everything is finished.

[Nexus]

Everything in this post is included in the dropbox I linked on the last PM, but I'm forwarding them through the board as well.

Opening post.

Welcome to Mini #, also known as Camping Trip Mafia! You have decided to leave your home, civilization and all modern technology and comforts behind to sleep in a tent providing nutrition for mosquitos for an indefinite amount of time! After packing all necessary supplies and a few unhealthy snacks, you embarked on a journey to the middle of nowhere.

But as you get to the middle of nowhere, you discover 13 other people at the exact same camping spot. How inconvenient. You set up your tent next to all the others, then gather with the others to do awkward small talk.

After five minutes of uncomfortable conversation, everyone realizes that all 13 tents look exactly the same. Even worse, since there’s 14 people, and no one can remember which their own tent was, an argument breaks out over who gets to sleep in which tent.

This argument is interrupted by someone screaming at the top of their lungs. Everyone rushes over to follow the noise. They discover a corpse that has been stabbed, shot, burned and dismembered in a most gruesome fashion.

Leonshade

was killed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.
I guess that solves the tent problem!

Rules post.

01. General Rules

01.1

In addition to the rules below, regular site rules apply.

01.2

Do not break the rules. Do not pretend to break the rules. Pretending to break the rules will be treated as if you had actually broken the rule in question.

01.3

The moderator's decision is final.

01.3.1

I am human, and make mistakes. If you see something that appears to be a mistake, tell me about it and I will fix it.

01.4

You may neither quote private communication with the mod, nor pretend to do so. This includes, but is not limited to, your role PM and anything posted by the mod in a private topic. Paraphrasing is allowed.

01.5

Discussing this game is only allowed via the methods provided by the moderator. Do not discuss this game with other players outside the game threads.

01.6

Using provable randomness is prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, using dice tags in the game thread. Using, as well as claiming to use, random methods such as dice rolls is allowed.

01.7

Editing your posts is not allowed, in case you have the ability to do so.

01.8

Impersonating the mod is not allowed. I will be using

yellow

(#FFFF00) as my mod color, so do not use that color, or similar colors.

01.9

Even if something isn't explicitly prohibited by the rules, the mod reserves the right to intervene if it's harming the game. This is the generic "toxic behavior" rule.

02. Setup & Mechanics

02.1

This setup was reviewed by

[INSERT NAMES HERE]

for normalcy and balance.

02.2

Day phases will last for 14 days. Night phases will last for 2 days.

02.3

Extensions may be granted in the case of replacements, site downtime or similar situations. Requests for deadline extensions will be ignored outside extreme circumstances.

02.4

To vote, please use either the vote tags (VOTE: Player) or bold tags (

VOTE: Player

). Unvoting before a vote change is not necessary.

02.5

Abbreviated or misspelled names of players will still be counted as a vote, provided that it is clear who the vote is for.

02.6

Lynching is achieved through simple majority. In other words, the lynch threshold is more than 50% of living players (half the players rounded down, plus one). If the deadline is reached without a lynch, or if a simple majority votes no lynch, no lynch will occur. If the number of living players is even, 50% of the living players is sufficient to no lynch.

02.7

Twilight begins when a lynch occurs, and lasts until the thread is locked. During twilight, all living players, including the player that was lynched, may continue to post.

02.8

Players may only use one ability per night. This includes the mafia's factional night kill ability. The only exception is if a mafia player with an ability is the sole living mafia player. In this case, they may use one night ability in addition to their factional ability.

02.9

This game uses Natural Action Resolution.

02.10

All flavor is for entertainment purposes only. The flavor text has no relation to the setup or mechanics of this game.

03. Activity & Deadlines

03.1

A player will be prodded after 48 hours of inactivity. The prodded player has 24 hours to post in the thread before the search for a replacement begins.

03.2

A player who has been prodded three times will be replaced.

03.3

The weekend, as well as certain holidays, will have relaxed time constraints for activity. Saturday and Sunday count as one day for the purposes of activity.

03.4

If the Day ends while you have been prodded, but before you have had a chance to respond, you have until the end of the Night to PM the moderator declaring your ability to continue. If you do not do this, you may be replaced.

03.5

The deadlines are absolute. Votes during the Day or night actions during the Night made after the official deadline will not be counted.

03.6

Players may change their night action at any time within the constraints of the deadline, but not after the deadline has expired.

03.7

Players will not be prodded during V/LA. If you announce a V/LA, please let me know with a PM to make sure I don't miss it. If you will be on V/LA regularly, please let me know before the game.

Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini #, Player!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote. You have no abilities during the night.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.

The game thread is [url].

Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Role PMs.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote. You have no abilities during the night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Town Tracker

.
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
During the night, you may track another player by sending me the name of that player. You will find out if they visited another player during that night, and if so, which player they visited.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Town Backup Tracker

.
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
You currently have no night abilities. However, if another town-aligned player with the Tracker role dies, you will be notified and you will gain the Tracker’s night ability: during the night, you may track another player by sending me the name of that player. You will find out if they visited another player during that night, and if so, which player they visited.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Town Bodyguard

.
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
During the night, you may protect target player from a kill. However, if that player is targeted for a kill, you will be killed instead of that player.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Town Macho Jack-of-all-Trades

.
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
You are prevented from being protected by kill protection abilities targeting you.
During the night, you have access to three one-shot night abilities, of which you may use up to one per night. These abilities are as follows:

• 1-Shot Rolecop: You learn target player’s role.
  
• 1-Shot Jailkeeper: You jailkeep target player, preventing them from using any active abilities and protecting them from kills.
  
• 1-Shot Vigilante: You may kill target player.
  You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
  The game thread is [url].
  Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. The other members of your mafia are [INSERT NAMES HERE].
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
During the night, you may post in the mafia private topic. You, as a collective, may decide which player sends the mafia night kill each night. You may do so through PM or in the mafia PT.
You win you have eliminated all non-mafia players, or when you can no longer be prevented from doing so.
The game thread is [url]. The mafia PT is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

Welcome to Mini #, Player!
You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

. The other members of your mafia are [INSERT NAMES HERE].
During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote.
During the night, you may post in the mafia private topic. You, as a collective, may decide which player sends the mafia night kill each night. You may do so through PM or in the mafia PT. You, as an individual, may roleblock target player each night. Target player cannot use their active night abilities.
You win you have eliminated all non-mafia players, or when you can no longer be prevented from doing so.
The game thread is [url]. The mafia PT is [url].
Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

[Leonshade]

Going to C/P some additional thoughts I sent in another PM:

Hello again! I've been working on my setup for my mini normal mafia game and I believe I have everything ready for review. Do let me know if there's something I've forgotten.

I have the opening post, the rules post and the role PMs on PDF files on dropbox.

The setup will be a closed setup consisting of 13 players. Mafia daytalk will not be enabled. The game will have three mafia members, with one roleblocker and two goons. Town will have ten players, with six VTs, a Macho JOAT (1-shot rolecop, 1-shot JK, 1-shot vig), a bodyguard, a tracker and a backup tracker.

I wanted to create a setup where the town is not vanilla, but does not have too much power and cannot rely on their night abilities to carry the game. This is why the strongest town role has the Macho flaw built into it, discouraging a premature claim and preventing "follow the leader" style play. With the rolecop, the bodyguard and the tracker, town can get some information through night abilities, but little in the way of certain information that can clear or confirm people.

Since town doesn't have much power, scum won't get too much, either. They have a roleblocker that doesn't have too many targets, but it does give them power in case that a town PR claims.

I will be forwarding the role PMs and rules post to you in another PM in addition to the PDF file, so you can see what the posts look like on the board.

I'm thinking of including small flavor bits in the flip posts, similar to the opening post. These would be for flavor only, with no relation to the setup or mechanics, as per accordance with normal guidelines.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the setup! I'm willing to make any changes that you consider necessary to make this setup normal and balanced.

[Nexus]

Sorry!

[borkjerfkin]

ego

[borkjerfkin]

what sort of action resolution are you using?

Roleblocker + JK + tracker gets pretty hairy.

[Leonshade]

Using Natural Action Resolution.

I see what you mean though, and NAR doesn't help with this scenario.

[borkjerfkin]

so basically shit gets crazy when you get jk and rb mutually targeting each other, if one of those always takes precedence in that situation, then NAR does handle the rest (JK affects the RB if it targets that and RB does not target JK, so track sees no result on the RB in that case, and vice versa)

additionally could be an incentive to remove one of the blockers if you're inclined.

[Leonshade]

It doesn't really make sense for one of RB or JK to take precedence. Removing one of the blockers would be the path of least resistance.

I'll probably change the JK to something, maybe a one-shot doctor.

[mhsmith0]

Town
Tracker
Backup Tracker
Bodyguard
Macho JOAT (rolecop, jk, vig)
6 VTs
vs
Goon, Goon, Roleblocker

Immediate thoughts:

1) The 1-shot vig is PROBABLY negative equity, since the odds of stopping a kill are pretty low, given that only the one shot of JK has any chance of it
2) I'm skeptical that scum need a full roleblocker here, town power is pretty limited
3) Bodyguard sucks as a power role generally, and I'm not sure anything town has is strong enough to really make the "die in place of the other guy" a meaningful boost. You don't have a full cop, jailkeeper, or vig here, for instance (all of which are good enough to solidly justify the BG sacrifice)

[mhsmith0]

Also roleblocker > jailkeeper is fine precedence wise, given that it's consistent with newbie games, although it's also fine if you don't want to deal with that kind of potential messiness

[mhsmith0]

FWIW, 10v3 mini normal games with roleblockers have as a whole been pretty balanced, around 50% town win rate

Spoiler:

1794 town win
doc, gunslinger, cop
vs rb, encryptor, goon

1772 town win
doc, roleblocker, macho tracker
vs rb, goon, goon

1719 scum win
1-shot BP, mason, mason, doc
vs rb, goon, goon (very different game here, town power was mainly passive)

1715 town win
doc, cop, role cop, jailkeeper
vs rb, godfather, goon

1709 scum win
1-shot gunsmith, JOAT, role cop, doctor
vs rb, watcher, goon

1666 scum win
tracker, 1-shot BP, cop, 1-shot vig neighbor, vanilla neighbor
vs rb, godfather, neighbor

1662 town win
tracker, vig, doc
vs rb, goon, goon

1653 scum win
doc, cop, 1-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1596 scum win
miller, doc, cop
vs rb, goon, goon

1527 town win
bodyguard, cop, 2-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1514 town win
even night vig, cowardly gunsmith, cop, odd night vig
vs rb, godfather, goon

etc

In general, against a roleblocker, town has had at least one really strong power role, or multiple passives (like 1719). The JOAT isn't strong enough, and tracker is a middling town power in a 13p game.

[borkjerfkin]

Do you let your scum factional kill + roleblock in the same night as part of
1) normal play
2) when they're the only scum left
?

this is especially relevant to tracker setups.

[Leonshade]

Do you let your scum factional kill + roleblock in the same night as part of
1) normal play
2) when they're the only scum left
?

this is especially relevant to tracker setups.

Only when they're the last scum left.

Immediate thoughts:

1) The 1-shot vig is PROBABLY negative equity, since the odds of stopping a kill are pretty low, given that only the one shot of JK has any chance of it
2) I'm skeptical that scum need a full roleblocker here, town power is pretty limited
3) Bodyguard sucks as a power role generally, and I'm not sure anything town has is strong enough to really make the "die in place of the other guy" a meaningful boost. You don't have a full cop, jailkeeper, or vig here, for instance (all of which are good enough to solidly justify the BG sacrifice)

In general, against a roleblocker, town has had at least one really strong power role, or multiple passives (like 1719). The JOAT isn't strong enough, and tracker is a middling town power in a 13p game.

Hmm. How about bumping the bodyguard up to a doctor?

[Marquis]

I'll look at this tonight

[mhsmith0]

That would make:

Town
Tracker
Backup Tracker
Doctor
Macho JOAT (rolecop, jk, vig)
6 VTs
vs
Goon, Goon, Roleblocker

That's probably pretty close to balanced. Can anyone confirm that "macho" would only prevent the doctor protect, and NOT prevent a save via jailkeeping the killer? I'm somewhat inclined to drop the macho modifier from the JOAT since I don't think that it's strong enough to be breaking (where it would require a macho modifier), especially given the scum roleblocker. Or we could keep the macho on the JOAT and then nerf the roleblocker, either by making it odd night or turning it into a scum JOAT (strongman / role cop / roleblocker)

[borkjerfkin]

Can anyone confirm that "macho" would only prevent the doctor protect, and NOT prevent a save via jailkeeping the killer?

Correct. Only ascetic on the killer would prevent that.

[Leonshade]

I'm willing to drop the macho modifier from the JOAT, if only because I also want to drop the jailkeep from the JOAT due to the headache borkjerfkin brought up.

I'm thinking of changing the one-shot JK to a one-shot doc. Having two of the same role bothers me a bit, but there are few other normal roles worth having as a one-shot. The alternative would be switching out the scum roleblocker for something else, but changing the JOAT seems like the smaller change.

So with those changes, it would be:

Town
Tracker
Backup Tracker
Doctor
JOAT (rolecop, doc, vig)
6 VTs
vs
Goon, Goon, Roleblocker

[mhsmith0]

I think I'm ok with this. What are you guys thinking?

[borkjerfkin]

Swing is fairly high (high probability of a tracker being alive late and trackers being much more powerful late game) but I don't have a huge problem with that. Scum needs to protect the fuck out of that RB.

Otherwise seems fine.

[mhsmith0]

OP:

01. General Rules

01.1

In addition to the rules below, regular site rules apply.

01.2

Do not break the rules. Do not pretend to break the rules. Pretending to break the rules will be treated as if you had actually broken the rule in question.

01.3

The moderator's decision is final.

01.3.1

I am human, and make mistakes. If you see something that appears to be a mistake, tell me about it and I will fix it.

01.4

You may neither quote private communication with the mod, nor pretend to do so. This includes, but is not limited to, your role PM and anything posted by the mod in a private topic. Paraphrasing is allowed.

01.5

Discussing this game is only allowed via the methods provided by the moderator. Do not discuss this game with other players outside the game threads.

01.6

Using provable randomness is prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, using dice tags in the game thread. Using, as well as claiming to use, random methods such as dice rolls is allowed.

01.7

Editing your posts is not allowed, in case you have the ability to do so.

01.8

Impersonating the mod is not allowed. I will be using

yellow

(#FFFF00) as my mod color, so do not use that color, or similar colors.

01.9

Even if something isn't explicitly prohibited by the rules, the mod reserves the right to intervene if it's harming the game. This is the generic "toxic behavior" rule.

02. Setup & Mechanics

02.1

This setup was reviewed by

[INSERT NAMES HERE]

for normalcy and balance.

02.2

Day phases will last for 14 days. Night phases will last for 2 days.

02.3

Extensions may be granted in the case of replacements, site downtime or similar situations. Requests for deadline extensions will be ignored outside extreme circumstances.

02.4

To vote,please use either the vote tags (VOTE: Player) or bold tags (

VOTE: Player

). Unvoting before a vote change is not necessary.

02.5

Abbreviated or misspelled names of players will still be counted as a vote, provided that it is clear whothe vote is for.

02.6

Lynching is achieved through simple majority. In other words, the lynch threshold is more than 50% of living players (half the players rounded down, plus one). If the deadline is reached without a lynch, or if a simple majority votes no lynch, no lynch will occur. If the number of living players is even, 50% of the living players is sufficient to no lynch.

02.7

Twilight begins when a lynch occurs, and lasts until the thread is locked. During twilight, all living players,including the player that was lynched, may continue to post.

02.8

Players may only use one ability per night. This includes the mafia's factional night kill ability. The only exception is if a mafia player with an ability is the sole living mafia player. In this case, they may use one night ability in addition to their factional ability.

02.9

This game uses Natural Action Resolution

02.10

All flavor is for entertainment purposes only. The flavor text has no relation to the setup or mechanics of this game.

03. Activity & Deadlines

03.1

A player will be prodded after 48 hours of inactivity. The prodded player has 24 hours to post in the thread before the search for a replacement begins.

03.2

A player who has been proddedthree times will be replaced.

03.3

The weekend, as well as certain holidays, will have relaxed time constraints for activity. Saturday and Sunday count as one day for the purposes of activity.

03.4

If the Day ends while you have been prodded, but before you have had a chance to respond, you have until the end of the Night to PM the moderator declaring your ability to continue. If you do not do this, you may be replaced.

03.5

The deadlines are absolute. Votes during the Day or night actions during the Night made after the official deadline will not be counted.

03.6

Players may change their night action at any time within the constraints of the deadline, but not after the deadline has expired.

03.7

Players will not beprodded during V/LA. If you announce a V/LA, please let me know with a PM to make sure I don't miss it. If you will be on V/LA regularly, please let me know before the game.

Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini #, Player!You are a

Vanilla Townie

.During the day, you may post in the game thread and use your vote. You have no abilities during the night.You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.The game thread is [url].Please confirm your role and alignment to me via PM.

[mhsmith0]

@marquis: thoughts?

@leonshade: can you update role PMs and repost?

[Leonshade]

Will do.

[Marquis]

I'm willing to drop the macho modifier from the JOAT, if only because I also want to drop the jailkeep from the JOAT due to the headache borkjerfkin brought up.

I'm thinking of changing the one-shot JK to a one-shot doc. Having two of the same role bothers me a bit, but there are few other normal roles worth having as a one-shot. The alternative would be switching out the scum roleblocker for something else, but changing the JOAT seems like the smaller change.

So with those changes, it would be:

Town
Tracker
Backup Tracker
Doctor
JOAT (rolecop, doc, vig)
6 VTs
vs
Goon, Goon, Roleblocker

Scum is massively reliant on the RB here - I agree with bork that it's swingy but I'd accept it more than I'd reject it - so I'd say if the RB survives past N1 it's more balanced.

I would absolutely not be opposed to seeing a Goon become a 1-Shot Backup RB or something (so if the RB dies, scum get one more potential RB action).

[borkjerfkin]

I think that's a bit of a clunky fix and I'd prefer scum to have to rely on supporting the RB to win