TwoFace Mini Normal Review

[Nexus]

this should be everything. Let me know if I missed something - also this idea was already bounced off of a current reviewer so review should be quick assuming whoever you assign also agrees with it being normal and balanced.

RULES

General

01. Site rules may be found here for reference. Note that playing to win condition is a requirement.
02. The rules are subject to change at my discretion to correct any errors or omissions. Should any changes be implemented, they will be announced in the same format as the original rule (for example, changes to the main set of rules will be announced in the main thread; changes to role-specific rules will be sent by PM).
03. Pretending to violate any of these rules will be treated the same as an actual violation.
04. Everyone is here to have fun, and I hope that we will all keep this in mind throughout the game. Please contact me directly (by PM) with any problems or questions. In the event that I make an error, please call it to my attention by PM or by addressing me in the relevant thread (

I will look for “@Mod”

).

Posting

05. Players should use English exclusively, without any form of hidden or encoded text.
06. Once I have declared a player to be dead, that player should not post in the main thread until I have declared the game to be over.
07. Players should not provide direct quotations from, images of, or other provable references to any game-related PM or PT.
08. Players should not use any form of provable randomness for any reason.

Timing

09. Each Day Phase will last 240 hours. Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. Deadlines may be extended at my discretion as necessary to ensure that the game continues smoothly. Any such extension will be announced in the main thread.
10. Players who have not posted in 48 consecutive hours will receive a prod. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. Players on V/LA will be exempt from these prod requirements; however, if a player requires an extensive period of V/LA, I may determine that the game would be better served by a replacement and replace that player at my discretion.
11. Players who do not make sufficient attempt to participate (including--but not limited to--players who require repeated prods) may be replaced at my discretion.
12. If a player being replaced for inactivity should return to the game before a replacement is found, that player may be allowed to continue in the game at my discretion. However, once a player has been replaced, that player may not continue in the game.

Day Phase

13. Players may vote to lynch another player using either vote tags or bold tags as demonstrated below.
VOTE: Name

Vote: Name

In order to be counted, votes should appear on a separate line and not within spoiler tags or otherwise concealed. Votes not following this format may be counted if I believe that a vote was intended.
14. When one player has achieved a majority of votes (more living players voting for that player than living players not voting for that player), that player will be lynched and the phase will end. If the deadline is reached before a lynch is achieved, no player will be lynched.
15. Players may vote to end the phase without a lynch. An example of such a vote is given below:
VOTE: No Lynch
If the number of living players voting for this option is greater than or equal to the number of living players not voting for this option, the phase will end without a lynch and the game will proceed directly to Night Phase.
16. Players may continue to post in the main thread until I have announced the end of the phase, regardless of whether or not a lynch has occurred.

Game Design

17. In addition to the site-wide rules, it may be useful to review the Normal Game guidelines and the Natural Action Resolution guidelines.
18. Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase).

Every PT related to this game will be made public after the game is over.

19. No player may perform more than one action during a single Night Phase.
20. At least one player will receive the following role:

Spoiler:

TO BE DETERMINED LATER

Town 1-shot Bulletproof Desperado

Role: Town 1-shot Bulletproof Desperado

Powers
Day Desperado (1-shot): During a Day phase, you may attempt to kill a player. If your kill resolves on a player who is Town-aligned, it will fail and you will die instead. You may only do this once.
Bulletproof: If you correctly shoot a mafia member, you will earn a 1 shot bulletproof ability that is only active the night after a successful shot.

Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive.

Odd Night Tracker

Role: Odd Night Tracker

Powers
Odd Night Tracker: During each odd night you can submit one target. You will track that target and learn where if anywhere they visited.

Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive.

Even Night Watcher

Role: Even Night Watcher

Powers
Even Night Watcher: During each odd night you can submit one target. You will watch that target and learn who if anyone visits them

Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive.

Follower

Role: Follower

Powers
Follower: Each night you can target one individul and learn what if any actions they took but you will not know who they performed the action on.
If a person did not use any action or you are blocked you would receive the result of No Result

Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive.

Vanilla Townie

Role: Vanilla Townie

Powers: You have no powers outside of your voice and your vote.
Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive

1-Shot Mafia Ninja

Role: 1 Shot Mafia Ninja
Powers: You share a private forum with Player A & Player B
You have a factional night kill, which means once per night one of you may kill a player
You have a one-shot ninja ability which would return a result to any tracker/watcher/or similar role which may or may not be in the game

Win Condition
You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same)

Mafia Goon

Role name: Mafia Goon
Abilities:
You share a Private forum with Player A & Player B
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.

Win Condition
You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same)

[Firebringer]

Ummm first off, I think you can do the "desperado 1 shot Bulletproof" as your one white list role, you will have to do a full role flip on that, but I still think that should be modified so as to not give you a bulletproof vest on killing scum.

That seems too powerful.

Even Odd Night Tracker/Watcher combo is alright.
I don't know if you want to do a Follower role as well given the fact that your other roles are investigatives.

I would take out one of Follower/Watcher/Tracker


Do scum have day chat?

[mastina]

Ummm first off, I think you can do the "desperado 1 shot Bulletproof" as your one white list role, you will have to do a full role flip on that, but I still think that should be modified so as to not give you a bulletproof vest on killing scum.

Agree on this being too powerful. I also don't think that a role gaining an ability partially through the game fits the spirit of a Normal, even if it would technically be allowed as a graylist.

Even Odd Night Tracker/Watcher combo is alright. I don't know if you want to do a Follower role as well given the fact that your other roles are investigatives.

I would be fine with it, as the even night/odd night roles, by design perspective, loosely equate to one role for the town.

And that would make the game 1-shot Desperado + 2 investigatives vs. 1-shot foil-to-investigatives.
Realistically, the watcher only gets one or two results, if that, given the ninja. These results are useful for catching the scum nightkill, or confirming town power roles, but otherwise are not.
The tracker realistically only gets two or three results, if that, given the ninja. These results are only useful if scum die like droves, because trackers are unlikely by math to catch the scum killing. (It's easier to watch the scum nightkill than track the scum killer.) It could also confirm town, but otherwise is not of use.
The follower is stronger than the tracker, getting more results, but still has the same issue as the tracker of only being good to confirm town power roles (the investigatives, to be more precise), and in lucking out and catching the scum doing the nightkill.

The worst-case scenario for the town as I see it is the Desperado vigging scum and the scum ninja being taken out before the scum can kill the now-conftown Desperado.

The worst-case scenario for the town as I see it is the Desperado vigging one of the town PRs and the duplicate town PRs being such that the town thinks "one must be scum!" causing them to lynch their own strength.

Running the math, I think I'm okay with these outcomes. The ninja gives the scumteam a warning about the nature of the town, while also not being too strong. The town's PRs are decent, but all work on the same wavelength, catching scum killing or confirming town actioning, and are otherwise of no use, with the exception of the Desperado.

Do scum have day chat?

As per the posted rules, they do. Couldn't hurt to specify this in the mafia's role PMs though.

[mastina]

Basically, I think that if the Desperado isn't given a BP, the game is reasonably balanced: the town has aids in figuring out the scum, but no strong, overwhelming advantage.
The scum has a warning/counter to the town, but this counter is not overpowering the town's roles.
It fits to me.

[Firebringer]

Okay, yeah.
I guess investigative all work in unison and Scum role pm kind of hints to scum that they should watch out for those invests.

Just nerf the desperado to no vest and I think the setup is fine.

[TwoFace]

This entire setup was ran by mastin who said it was fine. I disagree that that little wrinkle makes it OP since it's one shot

[TwoFace]

I can add the daychat part to the role pms. No problem

[TwoFace]

is mastina the same as mastin?

[TwoFace]

If all 3 agree that it's op, I can remove it reluctantly.

Other than that all is good right?

[Firebringer]

Yeah, I would say all else is good.

And Mastina is Mastin.

[TwoFace]

Well that's weird

[mastina]

This entire setup was ran by mastin who said it was fine. I disagree that that little wrinkle makes it OP since it's one shot

As I recall, you did mention the tracker/watcher/follower/Desperado (which I was, and still am, fine with), but not with the bulletproof, and certainly not with the bulletproof working the way you described. (I also said, "something like that will

probably

get you through quickly, yeah, but it

might

need some refinement". The bulletproof here is the refinement.)

One-shot bulletproof confirmed town is problematic because it is bulletproof confirmed town, especially in a game where every other town power role revolves around catching the scum killer--catching the scum try to kill a player confirmed as town is much easier if the scum have to try it twice, and wasted their ninja shot the first time. They'd have every right to complain about being caught, because a bulletproof Desperado goes beyond levels of reasonable expectation in a Normal.

[mastina]

And, yes. Otherwise, the setup is fine, the role PMs are fine, and the ruleset is fine. It's just the way that 1-shot bulletproof works for the Desperado is not something I'd call Normal.

[Firebringer]

I mean desperado isn't a normal role to begin with, thats not the issue if its "normal" the problem is balance.

[TwoFace]

What the PM said was "That can be my non normal role (1 shot w/nk immunity if correct if possible. Wiki mentioned it's a variant)"

But if it's an issue no worries. I'll just remove it. I liked it cause unless its very late game, the odds of being correct is slim. Especially if this role gets into the hands of the wrong person (which somehow always happens) so rewarding them with a BP vest is a nice reward and if used on the right day phase it helps watcher actually see something (barring the ninja being used)

That's what I was thinking

[TwoFace]

So does the 3rd reviewer need to sign off?

[mastina]

Well, we need the revised roles/setup before any of us can sign off, but yes, third reviewer showing up would also be needed. Antihero's usually fairly good about showing up within a couple of days.

[TwoFace]

Town 1-shot Bulletproof Desperado

Role: Town 1-shot Bulletproof Desperado

Powers
Day Desperado (1-shot): During a Day phase, you may attempt to kill a player. If your kill resolves on a player who is Town-aligned, it will fail and you will die instead. You may only do this once.

Win Condition
You win when all anti-town members have been eliminated at at least 1 town member is alive.

1-Shot Mafia Ninja

Role: 1 Shot Mafia Ninja
Powers: You share a private forum with Player A & Player B in which you may speak at all times.
You have a factional night kill, which means once per night one of you may kill a player
You have a one-shot ninja ability which would return a result to any tracker/watcher/or similar role which may or may not be in the game

Win Condition
You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same)

Mafia Goon
Role name: Mafia Goon
Abilities:
You share a Private forum with Player A & Player B in which you may speak at all times
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.

Win Condition
You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same)

[/quote]

[Nexus]

If Antihero doesn't turn up by Wednesday, I will take his place.

[Antihero]

totally forgot about this my bad

[Antihero]

yeah i say nix the bp too. the desperado's already going to draw the watcher if he lives

i'm not sure about the rest of the setup. i feel like this would be scumsided in practice and i'm a little concerned that stoofer's law will kick in here... but .... ehhhhhhhh

it really depends on if the desperado hits or not.

[Antihero]

ok thought about it a little bit and i'll add to that

it also depends on WHEN the desperado shoots. b/c when he does shoot it'll create a confirmed town regardless of whether it hits or not (assuming the desperado isn't hopelessly incompetent and claims the shot before making it)

if the desperado shoots on an even day AND scum have already blown through their ninja shot, town would be in business. otherwise, they're in trouble.

[Antihero]

ugh..............

i feel like the losing side is going to feel cheated here, regardless of the outcome (probably scum win)

[TwoFace]

But that could be said about any setup. Depending when the power roles get eliminated or how correctly they chose factors into winning.

Most people on this site don't have the will power to hold that power past day 2. The odds of being right are slim.

He gets killed n1, town is hurt.

It's pretty well balanced

[Antihero]

But that could be said about any setup.

not so.

i think it's reasonably likely they're going to end up in a situation where they think "well one of the investigatives HAS to be scum, right? there's too much overlap/power there." (mostly bc a lot of ppl are under the incorrect impression that tracker/follower are powerful roles) that's what i meant by "stoofer's law"

then on the flip side, scum might see the desperado and 3 investigatives and go "ahhhhhhh that's too much power"