BlackVoid's Mini Normal Review


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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:26 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Okay, I'm going to copy rules from Mini Normal 1742 by Mykonian.

I don't really care if anyone uses whatever colors they want or isn't nice to me (I have a thick skin).

Here's what my final rulelist will look like:



Deadlines

2 week days, 48 hour nights. 48 hours before prod, 24 hours before replacement.

Rules

Be nice to your fellow players. Don't break the game by artificial means. When the majority of the votes is on a person, he gets lynched. If you don't get a majority before the deadline, a no lynch occurs. Vote using bold or vote tags.

Spoiler: Sample VT Role PM
Vanilla Townie


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Vanilla Townie.

Abilities:
  • Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.
Win condition:
  • You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Public Info

Daytalk.
3 mafia
vs
10 town
. Mafia members can perform kill in addition to any role usage.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:32 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 24, Regfan wrote:The following win condition should suffice. "You win when you have at least one member alive and the Town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring."
Yeah, I'll use this.
In post 24, Regfan wrote:Also couldn't think of a way of letting mafia know a watcher exists. Maybe making it so the watcher cannot target the same player two nights in a row is a decent middle ground? So they can't just sit on a singular clear. Mafia still may end up shooting the player the night the watcher is on them but it's less of a given with that.
This is a decent idea, I'll think on it. I really wanted to use a watcher instead of a doc because when I'm mafia and I want to kill someone and can't get the kill in, it's really frustrating. I figured with a watcher, even if the mafia member dies the following day, they at least eliminated a townie that they wanted to get rid of and then their teammates can kill the outed watcher the next day anyways. With a doc, there's just a missed kill and no other info for the mafia.
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:34 am

Post by Regfan »

Pretty fine with that rulelist.

Understand your reasoning behind having watcher over doctor, it's fairly logical.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:40 am

Post by BlackVoid »

What if I changed a goon to a neighborizer? That way mafia have double the opportunity to neighborize townies and get them to out their role in private if they are skilled enough at manipulation? They could catch the watcher that way and if one mafia member sucks at sweet-talking people in private, this reduces swing and allows two of them to try separately.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:43 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 12, Regfan wrote:Interaction wise does the Mafia neighbourize visit re; watcher? Does the friendly neighbor?
Forgot to answer this. I thought it was standard but yes, all of these roles "visit" their target and can be seen by the watcher. Do I need to make that public someplace in the rules?
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:52 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Oh, by the way this might be a bit controversial but once the game ends, I want everything to be released. I'm not going to do that thing mods do where they ask "if you want to retract anything from your mafia topic, you have 24 hours." Wholeheartedly disagree with giving anyone the option to do that. My opinion is that their raw unfiltered thoughts should be made public and I think it's better for the players and the game as a whole since it's all part of the game.
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:58 am

Post by Regfan »

Not a fan of double neighbourizer idea, you're better of going rolecop in that situation.

You don't need to make what visits the watcher sees public, just needed to know how you're acting with it that's all.

If you want to have everything revealed postgame that's fine (It's personally a stance I agree with you on, I dislike mafia QT's being hidden but that's a topic for elsewhere), just warn people of such when signing up as some people may dislike and not want to play due to it.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Just curious, what's wrong with having two neighborizers? I've considered rolecop but I don't like how it's just a simple check and nothing skill-dependent (which is the same reason I prefer vigs over cops, there's really no wrong way to use a cop role). If you dislike double neighborizer, I'd rather leave it as a single neighborizer than add a rolecop.
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:03 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

If it's a case of town "clearing" one neighborizer because the other flipped scum, that's really the fault of people making erroneous assumptions, isn't it?
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:08 pm

Post by Regfan »

I think the addition of the second scum neighbourizer will be lead to a few rather frustrating sections of the game, similarly the "Oh one of the neighbourizes have to be scum and the other town" and then followed with "They won't both be scum neighbourizes". It's just something that will likely hurt scum in the short term and hurt town in the long term, rather just not have that be part of the game. Sure you can state that it's "The towns fault" for doing that setup speculation and you wouldn't be wrong but I'm sure it'll lead to some unhappy players postgame and think it moves the game too much into the 'setup spec will happen a lot' camp instead of the 'scumhunting' one that I think you're after.
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:13 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Yeah, I see the problem. So would you say:
1-shot weak friendly neighbor
2-shot vig
watcher
7 VTs
vs
neighborizer
2 goons

is balanced? If I'm using the wincon you posted previously, I'd also be accounting for the possibility of a draw. In other words, vig can't be endgamed in 3P if they have a shot left.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:15 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Also, I'm mulling around the possibility of giving the vig one shot during the day and one during the night. Thoughts on normalcy/balance of this? Alternatively changing the vig to an "anytime" vig that can shoot anytime they want.

My logic is just that a dayvig is an incredibly fun role and would increase enjoyment of the game without detracting from balance which is basically the point of playing anyways.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:19 pm

Post by Regfan »

I'd approve the setup in #35 after seeing the updated role PMs.

I think dayvig change may make it a bit too townsided; the current balance accounts for the vig shooting players that haven't had a chacne to claim at night and thus potentially even hitting one of the players that could be considered a "clear", inside a day setting they'll just have the target claim beforehand and town likely get a big PoE advantage from it.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:23 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Do you recommend scrapping that idea or do you think it's possible to rebalance the game around a vig that has two shots anytime? If I can get a balanced, normal setup out with that role, it would be pretty fun I think.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:25 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In this case, I'd swap the watcher for a 1-shot or 2-shot or add in an x-shot ninja for the scumteam (normally I wouldn't like them because they give false negatives to trackers but with a watcher, it'll be blatantly obvious there is one if someone dies with no one visiting them so there's not too much harm as far as confusing the town goes).
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:29 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Also, I would like to post a sample goon role PM in the OP as well just so town knows the scum wincon, the number of mafia, and that they have daytalk (the last two are mentioned in the rules but I'd rather not leave any room for confusion over the wincon.
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:46 pm

Post by Regfan »

The only issue with posting a Mafia Goon PM inside the OP is that it confirms existence of one of them which in a non-open setup is slightly eh. I think just stating there's 3 scum and they have daytalk should suffice.

I'll need to mull a bit more on having this setup changed to include the 2-shot vig with daykill potential, I understand it being a fun role but I think it's almost certainly going to be very swingy and hard to balance, I'd love some thoughts on Fire & Empking about it.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:07 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

On second thoughts, scratch the dayvig idea. You're right. I think it makes it makes the setup more convoluted than the simple, elegant one I wanted.

What if I just posted the scum wincon in the OP instead of a goon PM?
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:08 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Here is an example of what I'm talking about.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Post by Regfan »

Yeah, no issue if you want to do that at all.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Okay, here's what the ruleset and final role PMs would look like (assuming Fire and Empking like the setup as well). I added a line about the private topics to the rules. Opening post is . Second post is below. Setup is in .




Deadlines

2 week days, 48 hour nights. 48 hours before prod, 24 hours before replacement.

Rules

Be nice to your fellow players. Don't break the game by artificial means. Vote using bold or vote tags. When the majority of the votes is on a person, he gets lynched. If you don't get a majority before the deadline, a no lynch occurs. Any private topics that are part of the game will be released unedited at endgame.

Public Info

Daytalk.
3 mafia
vs
10 town
. Mafia members can perform kill in addition to any role usage.

Spoiler: Sample VT Role PM
Vanilla Townie


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Vanilla Townie.

Abilities:
  • Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.
Win condition:
  • You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Town Win condition:
You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Mafia Win condition:
You win when you have at least one member alive and the Town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.





Rest of the role PMs are here:

Spoiler: 1-shot Weak Friendly Neighbor
Town 1-shot Weak Friendly Neighbor


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Town 1-shot Weak Friendly Neighbor.

Abilities:
  • Once during the game at night, you can target another player and I'll mod-confirm you as Town to that player. If your target is mafia-aligned, you die.
Win condition:
  • You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Spoiler: 2-shot Vig
Town 2-shot Vigilante


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Town 2-shot Vigilante.

Abilities:
  • Twice during the game at night, you can target a player to kill.
Win condition:
  • You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Spoiler: Watcher
Town Watcher


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Town Watcher.

Abilities:
  • Each night you can target a player to watch and learn who visited them that night.
Win condition:
  • You win when all mafia have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Spoiler: Goon
Mafia Goon


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Mafia Goon.

Abilities:
  • You share a Private Topic (Mafia PT) with your fellow mafia; (partner's names) which is always open.
  • You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you can night-kill a player.
Win condition:
  • You win when you have at least one member alive and the Town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm through PM replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.


Spoiler: Neighborizer
Mafia Neighborizer


Welcome [Player Name] to Mini Normal X. You are a Mafia Neighborizer.

Abilities:
  • You share a Private Topic (Mafia PT) with your fellow mafia; (partner's names) which is always open.
  • You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you can night-kill a player.
  • You have a Private Topic (Player's Neighborhood) which is always open. Each night, you can target a player. I will add them to your neighborhood topic at the end of that night.
Win condition:
  • You win when you have at least one member alive and the Town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm through PM by replying with your Role and Alignment. Game thread is here.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

@Regfan, would you be okay back-up modding this game? You don't have to do anything because I know I'll have enough time to stay on top of everything. I just think it would be helpful to have someone with access to the setup if I have any questions.
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:56 pm

Post by Regfan »

Would approve #45. And sure I can backup mod.
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:58 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Thanks!
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:08 pm

Post by Empking »

/approved
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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