implosion's Mini Normal Review

[Nexus]

1-shot Loyal Friendly Neighbor
Rolestopper
Backup Rolestopper
Motion Detector Neighbor
Neighbor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Reeeally not sure about the finer points of balance for it, could potentially add a 1-shot strongman or replace the backup rolestopper or make the second neighbor scum or pretty much anything else.

(I'm also not attached to the loyal friendly neighbor, it just seems like a neat little cop variant effectively).

[Empking]

Need to see rules. Need to see PMs.

[mastina]

Yeah, need to see those things.
But balance-wise, I'd actually say this is fine? I'd maybe even make the 1-shot loyal friendly neighbor be a full Loyal Friendly Neighbor because motion detector is only a weak situational PR (it does not get a definitive guilty). The mafia rolecop gives the scum a fair chance of finding the town power roles but does not provide the scum a strong advantage; the town does not have any gamebreaking power, strategy, or whatnot and is also not horribly underpowered. (Though again I'd probably make the Loyal Friendly Neighbor be unlimited.)

It's really close to the mark balance-wise.
So we'd basically need to see the rules, see the roles, and see setup quirks. (Does the Rolecop get a result of 'Motion Detector', or 'Motion Detector Neighbor'? Similarly, 'Vanilla' or 'Neighbor'? Can mafia both kill and act, or just one? Do the mafia have daychat or not?)

[Firebringer]

Need to see rules. Need to see PMs.

[implosion]

opening post

Mini Normal NUMBER: WITTY TITLE

Spoiler: Alive

PLAYERS

Spoiler: Dead

No one yet!

Spoiler: second (rules) post

General Rules

1. The Basics
   
   
2. All site-wide rules apply.
   
3. Play to your win condition.
   
4. Do not privately communicate with other players about this game, except where explicitly allowed.
   
5. Be respectful of other players; do not insult them. Attack the argument, not the person.
   
6. Do not quote your role PM; do not quote any private communication with other players. Do not pretend to quote your role PM or any private communication, as doing so will be treated as if you actually quoted them. Paraphrasing either of these is fine.
   
7. Do not use provable randomness.
   
8. Do not use cryptography, robust steganography, invisible text, etc.
   
9. As the moderator, I reserve the right to make any judgment call I deem fit, regardless of whether or not any explicit rule exists.

1. During the Day
   
   
2. Day phases will last 12 days.
   
3. During the day, votes must be posted with either
   bold tags
   or VOTE: tags. Don't try to get tricky; if it looks like a vote and is bolded, I will count it as a vote. Any attempt to abuse voting with trick votes or fake votes will be punished harshly.
   
4. When a majority of votes is reached, that player will be lynched. If no majority exists at deadline, no lynch will occur.
   
5. Prods will be issued upon 48 hours of inactivity; if unanswered after 24 hours, I will begin seeking a replacement. If the player posts in thread before a replacement is found, they will retain their spot.
   
6. I may or may not grant deadline extensions if asked.

1. During the Night
   
   
2. All nights will last 48 hours.
   
3. All night actions must be received by the deadline; if no action is received, or if an action is received after the deadline, no action will be taken.

1. Setup specifications
   
   
2. Unless otherwise specified, private topics are only open at night.
   
3. Any mafia member who has a night action other than their nightkill may both use that action and kill on the same night.

Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
Your only powers are your voice and your vote.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Role PMs

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
Your only powers are your voice and your vote.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Town 1-shot Loyal Friendly Neighbor

.
Once during the game, at night, you may target a player. That player will be informed that you are aligned with the town. If that player is not aligned with the town, your action will fail. You will not be informed if your action fails.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Town Rolestopper

.
During the night, you may target a player. All other actions (including kills) that target that player that night will fail.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Town Backup Rolestopper

.
If a rolestopper dies during the game, you will become a rolestopper.
If you become a rolestopper, during the night, you may target a player. All other actions (including kills) that target that player that night will fail.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Town Neighbor

.
You are in a neighborhood with PLAYER. You may talk with them at night here: LINK
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Town Neighbor Motion Detector

.
You are in a neighborhood with PLAYER. You may talk with them at night here: LINK
During the night, you may target a player. You will be informed whether or not you see any motion on that player. You will see motion if either that player acts that night, or another player other than you targets that player that night.
You win when all anti-town players are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Mafia Goon

, along with NAME (who is also a goon), and NAME (who is a rolecop).
You may talk with the other mafia members at night here: LINK
As a faction, at night, one of you may kill a player.
You win when all players not aligned with you are dead and at least one player aligned with you is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini Normal NUMBER, NAME!
You are a

Mafia Rolecop

, along with NAME and NAME (who are both goons).
You may talk with the other mafia members at night here: LINK
As a faction, at night, one of you may kill a player.
Each night, you may target a player and learn their role. You may kill and use this ability in the same night if desired.
You win when all players not aligned with you are dead and at least one player aligned with you is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Confirm by sending me a PM stating your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Interactions etc

A player is still considered to have acted for the purpose of the motion detector even if their action fails (either because of the loyal modifier or because of the rolestoppers).
No daytalk for mafia or neighborhood (I'm very open to flipping this, though; it would make both the rolecop and the motion detector stronger).
Mafia can act and kill on the same night.
Rolecop gets full role name: Neighbor on the neighbor, Motion Detector Neighbor on it, Rolestopper on the rolestopper, 1slfn on the 1slfn. If the rolecop targets the backup rolestopper, then they get "rolestopper" if they've become an actual rolestopper, "backup rolestopper" otherwise. Kills resolve before investigations, so if they kill the rolestopper and investigate the backup, they will receive a result of "rolestopper."

[Firebringer]

A player is still considered to have acted for the purpose of the motion detector even if their action fails (either because of the loyal modifier or because of the rolestoppers).
No daytalk for mafia or neighborhood (I'm very open to flipping this, though; it would make both the rolecop and the motion detector stronger).
Mafia can act and kill on the same night.
Rolecop gets full role name: Neighbor on the neighbor, Motion Detector Neighbor on it, Rolestopper on the rolestopper, 1slfn on the 1slfn. If the rolecop targets the backup rolestopper, then they get "rolestopper" if they've become an actual rolestopper, "backup rolestopper" otherwise. Kills resolve before investigations, so if they kill the rolestopper and investigate the backup, they will receive a result of "rolestopper."

1) I don't think thats normal for a Motion Detector.
2) Okay on daytalk or neighborhood. Maybe include that their isn't day talk without encryptor in one of the opening posts though?
3) Thats fine on the Rolecop targets.

I haven't thought about this on balance terms yet.

[implosion]

I'm a bit wary of a full loyal friendly neighbor just because it would potentially enable follow-the-cop. This would partially be a problem because i think site meta has gone to the point where if the mafia see what is essentially a cop claim and they see that they don't have a roleblocker or strongman they'll assume there's no protective role. I'd be fine with it in conjunction with something like a mafia 1-shot strongman or mafia 1-shot roleblocker. I'd also be fine with making it 2-shot.

[Firebringer]

I would say don't worry about town having too much power and buffing the scum. Just worry about what town has and seeing if that is okay before worrying about scum power.

Scum start out with more power than town.

[implosion]

Maybe include that their isn't day talk without encryptor in one of the opening posts though?

It's in the last section of the rules.

I've actually been a bit unsure about that interaction (generally, the interaction between anything in the tracker/watcher family and anything in the roleblocker/rolestopper family) for a while; i can't find anything about it on the wiki, which makes sense because there's no real logical place to put a standardization of it. I don't think there's an official ruling but i'm happy to flip it to the other way.

Although i think it'd still make sense for them to see motion if they targeted the loyal friendly neighbor and the loyal friendly neighbor targeted mafia?

It's a bit ambiguous.

[Firebringer]

Yeah I think this game would be improved with a full Loyal Friendly Neighbor and a Weaker Rolecop on the scum team.
I don't think scum need a full role cop in this and I definitely think town doesn't have much power.

Motion Detector isn't very powerful.
Rolestopper is okay.
Loyal Friendly Neighbor can only basically confirm themselves as town and get semi clears on other town.

[Firebringer]

Although i think it'd still make sense for them to see motion if they targeted the loyal friendly neighbor and the loyal friendly neighbor targeted mafia?

It's a bit ambiguous.

I don't know if theres any official wording on it, I always considered a role blocking type action preventing someone to act would prevent them actually doing ANYTHING, which means a tracker shouldn't see them perform anything, a watcher wouldn't see them visit their target, and a Motion Detector wouldn't see them doing anything.

[implosion]

loyal friendly neighbor has the potential to get guilties as well; if they target mafia and the mafia doesn't act like they got the message, then they get a pseudo-guilty (they know that they either got a guilty or were roleblocked). I guess it is a bit more ambiguous as a guilty than I was giving it credit for since either the mafia could figure it out if they've already claimed, or they could claim there's a mafia roleblocker. I'm fine with making it full.

The logic behind the full rolecop is that it gives them a way to deal with the fact that the town will have a way to protect the loyal friendly neighbor for most of the game with two rolestoppers, and it empowers the motion detector to potentially get more useful information. I'm fine with limiting it (odd-night or 2-shot or something of the like) if there's a consensus thereof.

[implosion]

A couple other things:

-Is there a standard for flipping converted backup roles? I presume flipping as "Town Rolestopper (previously Town Backup Rolestopper)" is fine.

-If the NRG is understaffed at the moment i'm happy to join it. Or if it's not. Idk how applying to it works.

[Empking]

-Is there a standard for flipping converted backup roles? I presume flipping as "Town Rolestopper (previously Town Backup Rolestopper)" is fine.

Yeah, that's a sensible flip.

Rules and role PMs seem fine; although repeating FB that the Motion Detector doesn't seem quite a motion detector.

[Firebringer]

loyal friendly neighbor has the potential to get guilties as well; if they target mafia and the mafia doesn't act like they got the message, then they get a pseudo-guilty (they know that they either got a guilty or were roleblocked). I guess it is a bit more ambiguous as a guilty than I was giving it credit for since either the mafia could figure it out if they've already claimed, or they could claim there's a mafia roleblocker. I'm fine with making it full.

The logic behind the full rolecop is that it gives them a way to deal with the fact that the town will have a way to protect the loyal friendly neighbor for most of the game with two rolestoppers, and it empowers the motion detector to potentially get more useful information. I'm fine with limiting it (odd-night or 2-shot or something of the like) if there's a consensus thereof.

I see what you are saying here Implosion, with the reasoning behind this stuff. I don't know application wise it would work out that way? Most games the role cop either becomes redundant role for scum, so thats part of reason why I don't really mind it, but I also don't think scum need it at all.

As far as Loyal Friendly Neighbor, yes it will act as a Pseudo-guilty but if scum role cop it, plus if they claim early its unlikely that it will have much impact. I believe chances are low that it will have that kind of impact to the game as a quasi guilty.

I still think this needs a bit of adjustment in terms of roles.
Would like to hear mastina opinion.

I think town is a bit too weak for me to sign off on this right now.

[mastina]

My opinion is that I want the friendly neighbor to be full rather than one-shot, but that if that were done:
Loyal Friendly Neighbor
Rolestopper
Backup Rolestopper
Motion Detector Neighbor
Neighbor
VTs

Goons
Rolecop

...Would be balanced. Or reasonably close to balanced. (The most iffy part would be the rolecop there but even that I think would be fine.)

[implosion]

I'm happy to take that version of the setup, or with the rolecop changed to odd-night or 2-shot. They all seem reasonable after more evaluation of the loyal friendly neighbor.

With regards to the motion detector results, just to be crystal clear, there are two situations I see as ambiguous:

(A) Loyal friendly neighbor and rolestopper both target vanilla townie, and motion detector targets the loyal friendly neighbor; ambiguous because the friendly neighbor acted but was rolestopped so did nothing.
(B) Loyal friendly neighbor targets mafia goon (who does not act), and motion detector targets either of those two players; ambiguous because the loyal friendly neighbor acted but their action failed because of the loyal modifier.

Do you think the motion detector should return "no motion" in both of these cases? I don't actually care which way it is, I can see justification any way, so if you prefer no motion in each of these cases then that's fine. It might require rephrasing the role pm, which is currently phrased as:

You will see motion if either that player acts that night, or another player other than you targets that player that night.

which IMO implies that they would see motion in both cases. Not sure how to phrase it if those results should be no-motion.

[Empking]

The Motion Detector should detect on Rolestopper targets.

And I think it would be most reasonable if that is true in the Loyal case, too.

But it isn't; loyally targeting a disloyal target is like being roleblocked so no movement.

Huh, I've misunderstood Motion Detector for quite a while. Your way is the right way.

[Firebringer]

I think Town needs a little more or scum needs to do without rolecop.

[Firebringer]

Bump bump.

[implosion]

HRM

how about rolecop->night 2 rolecop? Guarantees that they won't be able to use the info until night 3, but still gives them some amount of an out if the LFN claims early.

[mastina]

That is a quirk I can get behind.

[Firebringer]

I guess thats fine?
Empking?

[Empking]

I guess thats fine?
Implosion?

[Firebringer]

lol