Dierfire Mini Normal Review

Nexus · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:56 am

Dierfire wrote:Hello,

1. I will be ready to run the game when it gets to the top of the list.
2. The game is for 13 players.
3. I would like to advertise this game as having one faction of Mafia against the Town with no third parties, but otherwise to leave the roles closed.
4. I have no backup or co-moderator.
5. I have no other moderating commitments currently (I may be running a game on another site in the foreseeable future, but I would not start that one if it would interfere with my ability to conduct this one). I have previously moderated four Mini Normal games on this site with another as co-moderator.

I'm sending the game design by a separate PM.

Thanks,

Dier

Dierfire wrote:1. Opening posts

Spoiler: First Post
Mini Normal ####
Moderator: Dierfire
Reviewed by: (Names)

Players

01. (Name)
02. (Name)
03. (Name)
04. (Name)
05. (Name)
06. (Name)
07. (Name)
08. (Name)
09. (Name)
10. (Name)
11. (Name)
12. (Name)
13. (Name)

Alive

(Names)

Dead

(Names)

Game Events

(Events)

Spoiler: Second Post
RULES

General

01. Site rules may be found here for reference. Note that playing to win condition is a requirement.
02. The rules are subject to change at my discretion to correct errors or omissions. Should any changes be implemented, they will be announced in the same format as the original rule (for example, changes to the main set of rules will be announced in the main thread; changes to role-specific rules will be sent by PM).
03. Pretending to violate any of these rules will be treated the same as an actual violation.
04. Everyone is here to have fun, and I hope that we will all keep this in mind throughout the game. Please contact me directly (by PM) with any problems or questions. In the event that I make an error, please call it to my attention by PM or by addressing me in the relevant thread (
I will look for “@Mod”
).

Posting

05. Players should use English exclusively, without any form of hidden or encoded text.
06. Once I have declared a player to be dead, that player should not post in the main thread until I have declared the game to be over.
07. Players should not provide direct quotations from, images of, or other provable references to any game-related PM or PT.
08. Players should not use any form of provable randomness for any reason.

Timing

09. Each Day Phase will last 240 hours. Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. Deadlines may be extended at my discretion as necessary to ensure that the game continues smoothly. Any such extension will be announced in the main thread.
10. Players who have not posted in 48 consecutive hours will receive a prod. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. Players on V/LA will be exempt from these prod requirements; however, if a player requires an extensive period of V/LA, I may determine that the game would be better served by a replacement and replace that player at my discretion.
11. Players who do not make sufficient attempt to participate (including--but not limited to--players who require repeated prods) may be replaced at my discretion.
12. If a player being replaced for inactivity should return to the game before a replacement is found, that player may be allowed to continue in the game at my discretion. However, once a player has been replaced, that player may not continue in the game.

Day Phase

13. Players may vote to lynch another player using either vote tags or bold tags as demonstrated below.
VOTE: Name

Vote: Name

In order to be counted, votes should appear on a separate line and not within spoiler tags or otherwise concealed. Votes not following this format may be counted if I believe that a vote was intended.
14. When one player has achieved a majority of votes (more living players voting for that player than living players not voting for that player), that player will be lynched and the phase will end. If the deadline is reached before a lynch is achieved, no player will be lynched.
15. Players may vote to end the phase without a lynch. An example of such a vote is given below:
VOTE: No Lynch
If the number of living players voting for this option is greater than or equal to the number of living players not voting for this option, the phase will end without a lynch and the game will proceed directly to Night Phase.
16. Players may continue to post in the main thread until I have announced the end of the phase, regardless of whether or not a lynch has occurred.

Game Design

17. In addition to the site-wide rules, it may be useful to review the Normal Game guidelines and the Natural Action Resolution guidelines.
18. Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase).
Every PT related to this game will be made public after the game is over, although I will redact posts by player request.

19. This game has one Town faction and one Mafia faction, with no other factions present. The number of players in each faction is not public knowledge. No player in any faction may perform more than one action during a single Night Phase.
20. At least one player will receive the following role:
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

2. Roles

3x Mafia Strongman

1x Town Role Cop
1x Town Loyal Cop
1x Town Tracker
1x Town Universal Backup
6x Town Citizen

Spoiler: Role PM
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Strongman, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse at any time (Day Phase and Night Phase) with the other players aligned with Mafia in this PT (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. This action cannot be blocked or prevented.

Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Role Cop, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that the alignment of the role is not included in the result):

You have learned that (target) has the role (name of role).

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Loyal Cop, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that actions directed at players not aligned with Town will fail due to the Loyal modifier):

You have learned that (target) is aligned with Town.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Tracker, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that you will not learn the nature of any action that you observe):

You observed (target) direct an action towards (player).

You did not observe (target) take any action.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Universal Backup, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: Initially, you have no special abilities. However, you will gain the abilities of the first role aligned with Town--other than Citizen--to die.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

3. Moderator Information

Spoiler: Role Cop Results
You have learned that (target) has the role Strongman.

You have learned that (target) has the role Loyal Cop.

You have learned that (target) has the role Tracker.

You have learned that (target) has the role Universal Backup.

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Spoiler: Cop Results
You have learned that (target) is aligned with Town.

Your action was unsuccessful.

Spoiler: Tracker Results
You observed (target) direct an action towards (player).

You did not observe (target) take any action.

Spoiler: Universal Backup Results
You have assumed a new role: Role Cop. During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that the alignment of the role is not included in the result):

You have learned that (target) has the role (name of role).

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.

You have assumed a new role: Loyal Cop. During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that actions directed at players not aligned with Town will fail due to the Loyal modifier):

You have learned that (target) is aligned with Town.

Your action was unsuccessful.

You have assumed a new role: Tracker. During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that you will not learn the nature of any action that you observe):

You observed (target) direct an action towards (player).

You did not observe (target) take any action.

Your action was unsuccessful.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous Notifications
Unfortunately, you have died. You may continue to discuss this game in the Dead PT (link), but otherwise may not post in this game (in any thread) until I have announced that the game is over.

More than 48 hours have passed since your last post. Please post in the main thread (link) within 24 hours to continue in the game.

Day (#) has begun. The main thread (link) is now open.

Dierfire · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:40 am

I think that I want to change two of the investigative roles. Give me a few minutes to write it up.

ISO · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:52 am

While your role PMs are certainly unusually worded, there is nothing in them which is beyond Normal so I have no problem with them.

The scum being able to kill with absolute impunity any roleclaimed player is also neat, and I feel that the scum aren't limited by the setup; the town (until a second strongman flip) would be likely to assume either the strongman was the only scum role or that the mafia have a ninja or something akin to that; the town would also anticipate there being protective roles.

This is a reasonably neat way to turn a rolecop into a cop without them being aware of it.

While three investigatives per night is a problem (and the fact that there's a fourth as a backup), overall I'd say that their lack of clear guilties except the rolecop (or a really lucky tracker), inability to get hard innocents except the loyal cop, and general vulnerability to being nightkilled balances things out ultimately. It's a little swingy depending on the luck (or lack thereof) of the town's investigations. But overall I'd say it comes out to loosely being balanced, so I'm fine with it as-is right now. (Though other reviewers may have differing opinions there.)

Dierfire · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:27 am

Ugh, I want to change some things but the interactions with Universal Backup are a pain and I really want to keep that role in there (it's a good match for the lack of protective roles and will reduce the swing involved with investigative roles).
---
I guess that I'll just think about it some more while the reviews come in.
If anyone has a suggestion for a role that could replace, say, the Tracker, I'd like to hear it. (I'm thinking about a Neighborizer but the interaction with the Universal Backup might be a pain.)

implosion · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:39 am

First impression of setup is that it is normal and probably reasonably close to balanced, but probably very swingy in this state. Worst case, even with a d1 mislynch, it's possible with this much investigative power to effectively catch all three scum on n1.

The tracker is about as weak as tracker typically is as a role. The loyal cop can rely on its innocent results but not its no results, but a no result will still be seen as extremely suspicious and so with no other way to get a no result it is only nominally weaker than a cop. The role cop is probably medium in strength since it always gets a guilty on scum. Both the rolecop and tracker become much stronger when there is only one scum left, tracker because it always does and role cop because they will see two full strongmen and likely guess that the third is likely to be one as well.

From the mafia side they will see three strongmen and realize that there is likely no protective role, which gives them insight into the setup that could be useful for crafting fakeclaims.

I'll have more to say in a few hours though~

PenguinPower · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:30 pm

Normal, yes. I like the lack of protectives, and subbing in a backup instead.

I'm going to think about it more over the night, but I'm not a fan of three investigatives with a UB. I see mastina's point with the Loyal Cop not getting a clear guilty, but if I put myself as a player in that role, knowing my modifier, while I wouldn't out a guilty, they would be the main focus of the next day phase for me. That said - I think it's balanced when I think of possible interactions - but any setup which can potentially solve the game after one night phase (however unlikely)...as I said I need to think about it.

Maybe a Friendly Neighbor or some sort of FN-variant instead of tracker.

Not sure what you mean by UB/Neighborizer interactions being a pain, but that could be viable.

implosion · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:05 pm

Alright.

So if you want to replace the tracker, there's plenty of options that work, although it's obviously somewhat constrained since giving town any blocking/protection is a very bad idea. Innocent child (either the immediate variation although that's kind of an amusing interaction with universal backup, or the reveal-at-any time variation) and friendly neighbor both aren't too strong given scum have impunity with killing. Watcher would be a bad idea imo since it would punish scum for killing claimed PRs when the setup is screaming at them to kill claimed PRs.

You could throw in a miller if you want another fun interaction with both the role cop and the loyal cop.

You could have a JOAT of some sort, with shots of tracker or follower or voyeur or other investigative abilities.

You also still have a greylist role to work with so the sky is really the limit!

Actually, now that I think about it, you should rephrase the loyal cop role PM either way - the way it's phrased right now implies there aren't any millers, which should give a guilty result even to a loyal cop if I'm not mistaken since they don't interact with the loyal modifier.

Dierfire · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:19 pm

Oh, ha ha, that's true about the Loyal Cop interaction with a Miller! I will rephrase the example results.
That reminds me also--what is the Normal resolution for a Role Cop that targets the Universal Backup after another role has died? Does the Role Cop return "Universal Backup" or the new role?
I might like a Neighborizer, the only weird interaction that concerned me was how to handle the Universal Backup being added to the Neighborhood. I think that I can make it work, though.

implosion · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:30 pm

I think for rolecop-backup, the role cop gets the backup's new role, because they assume that role. Remember that in NAR, kills resolve before investigations, which is relevant here, so if a PR dies on and the UB assumes that role and the rolecop investigates the UB that night, they should get a result of the new role, not UB.

I could see an argument for the other way though.

The UB-neighborizer interaction can also be interpreted in a couple of ways, I think? The first way I interpreted it was actually that they'd become an entirely new neighborizer, which could also work. Not sure if either of those is actually canonical.

ISO · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:27 pm

I'm reasonably certain the rolecop gets the old role--Universal Backup is the role they flip as, so Universal Backup is the role the rolecop gets.

PenguinPower · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:25 pm

In post 8, implosion wrote:The first way I interpreted it was actually that they'd become an entirely new neighborizer, which could also work.

From experience, this is correct. UB becomes a new neighborizer with a new hood, and no access to the previous hood.

Dierfire · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:41 am

All right, that sounds good to me!

Spoiler: First Post

Spoiler: Second Post

RULES

General

01. Site rules may be found here for reference. Note that playing to win condition is a requirement.
02. The rules are subject to change at my discretion to correct errors or omissions. Should any changes be implemented, they will be announced in the same format as the original rule (for example, changes to the main set of rules will be announced in the main thread; changes to role-specific rules will be sent by PM).
03. Pretending to violate any of these rules will be treated the same as an actual violation.
04. Everyone is here to have fun, and I hope that we will all keep this in mind throughout the game. Please contact me directly (by PM) with any problems or questions. In the event that I make an error, please call it to my attention by PM or by addressing me in the relevant thread (
I will look for “@Mod”
).

Posting

05. Players should use English exclusively, without any form of hidden or encoded text.
06. Once I have declared a player to be dead, that player should not post in the main thread until I have declared the game to be over.
07. Players should not provide direct quotations from, images of, or other provable references to any game-related PM or PT.
08. Players should not use any form of provable randomness for any reason.

Timing

09. Each Day Phase will last 240 hours. Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. Deadlines may be extended at my discretion as necessary to ensure that the game continues smoothly. Any such extension will be announced in the main thread.
10. Players who have not posted in 48 consecutive hours will receive a prod. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. Players on V/LA will be exempt from these prod requirements; however, if a player requires an extensive period of V/LA, I may determine that the game would be better served by a replacement and replace that player at my discretion.
11. Players who do not make sufficient attempt to participate (including--but not limited to--players who require repeated prods) may be replaced at my discretion.
12. If a player being replaced for inactivity should return to the game before a replacement is found, that player may be allowed to continue in the game at my discretion. However, once a player has been replaced, that player may not continue in the game.

Day Phase

13. Players may vote to lynch another player using either vote tags or bold tags as demonstrated below.
VOTE: Name

Vote: Name

In order to be counted, votes should appear on a separate line and not within spoiler tags or otherwise concealed. Votes not following this format may be counted if I believe that a vote was intended.
14. When one player has achieved a majority of votes (more living players voting for that player than living players not voting for that player), that player will be lynched and the phase will end. If the deadline is reached before a lynch is achieved, no player will be lynched.
15. Players may vote to end the phase without a lynch. An example of such a vote is given below:
VOTE: No Lynch
If the number of living players voting for this option is greater than or equal to the number of living players not voting for this option, the phase will end without a lynch and the game will proceed directly to Night Phase.
16. Players may continue to post in the main thread until I have announced the end of the phase, regardless of whether or not a lynch has occurred.

Game Design

17. In addition to the site-wide rules, it may be useful to review the Normal Game guidelines and the Natural Action Resolution guidelines.
18. Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase).
Every PT related to this game will be made public after the game is over, although I will redact posts by player request.

19. This game has one Town faction and one Mafia faction, with no other factions present. The number of players in each faction is not public knowledge. No player in any faction may perform more than one action during a single Night Phase.
20. At least one player will receive the following role:
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

2. Roles

3x Mafia Strongman

1x Town Role Cop
1x Town Loyal Cop
1x Town Neighborizer
1x Town Universal Backup
6x Town Citizen

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Strongman, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse at any time (Day Phase and Night Phase) with the other players aligned with Mafia in this PT (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. This action cannot be blocked or prevented.

Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Role Cop, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that the alignment of the role is not included in the result):

You have learned that (target) has the role (name of role).

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Loyal Cop, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results (note that actions directed at players not aligned with Town will fail due to the Loyal modifier):

You have learned that (target) is aligned with Town.

You have learned that (target) is not aligned with Town.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Neighborizer, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have access to this Neighborhood PT (link), which is open at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase). During each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to recruit. You may not choose yourself. If your action is successful, that player will be added to the Neighborhood PT (at the start of the following Day Phase).

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Universal Backup, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: Initially, you have no special abilities. However, you will gain the abilities of the first role aligned with Town--other than Citizen--to die.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

3. Moderator Information

Spoiler: Role Cop Results

Spoiler: Cop Results

Spoiler: Neighborizer Target Result

Spoiler: Universal Backup Results

Spoiler: Miscellaneous Notifications

Dierfire · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:41 am

SUMMARY OF CHANGES

Added reviewer names to first post
Added possible "target not aligned with Mafia" investigative result to example results in Loyal Cop Role PM and Universal Backup result for Loyal Cop death (to reflect potential Miller investigation)
Changed Town Tracker to Town Neighborizer
Removed Role Cop result for Tracker from Moderator Information section, added result for Neighborizer
Removed Tracker results from Moderator Information section, added result for the target of the Neighborizer
Removed Universal Backup result for death of Tracker from Moderator Information section, added result for death of Neighborizer
For all Universal Backup results in Moderator Information section, changed phrasing from "you have assumed a new role" to "you have gained a new ability"

Also, these aren't really "changes" as such, but I'm acknowledging that the resolution is for the Role Cop to get "Universal Backup" as an investigative result regardless of whether the Universal Backup has gained another role's powers, and that the Universal Backup will not be added to the old Neighborhood PT if the Neighborizer dies but rather will start a new Neighborhood PT.

ISO · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:37 am

I'm content with this.
/pass.

PenguinPower · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:26 pm

I like it.

/pass

p.s. I'm a fan of your formatting. Thank you.

implosion · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:46 pm

/pass. Seems good to me. With one hilariously pedantic caveat:

You might conceivably want to create the possible private topic for the backup-neighborizer at the same time as you create all of the other private topics, as otherwise it pseudo-confirms that the backup was in fact a backup and did not start as a neighborizer when recruited players see when the PT was created. Alternatively you could create each neighborhood PT upon the first successful neighborizing.

I think this is a good thing to do? The latter would require a slight modification of the neighborizer role PM and the UB result PM, and a note that the neighborizer target PM is also sent to the neighborizer itself after a successful targeting.

PenguinPower · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Not sure that's necessary, because the backup role isn't explicitly town or scum. It's a backup. So when the neighborizer dies, the backup takes the roll - either alignment.

If a neighborhood is created at game start, but isn't populated and posted in until the flip of the neighborizer...is there really a difference?

implosion · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:58 pm

Actually, I didn't think of it, but it would also psuedo-confirm the backup as town. Normal universal backups only backup roles of players of their own alignment, so having backed up the neighborizer is tantamount to being confirmed town.

The issue I was thinking of is simply that it would role confirm the universal backup as a universal backup-turned-neighborizer, rather than, say, a mafia neighborizer. Which isn't necessarily bad.

PenguinPower · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:02 pm

Good point. So it becomes, in effect, a a backup friendly neighbor that has a PT.

Dierfire · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:25 pm

Ha ha, this interaction between the Universal Backup and the Neighborizer is so much of a headache!

I don't think that there's a way to engineer around the fact that the Universal Backup is easily recognizable as backing up a Neighborizer role rather than playing as a Neighborizer from the start. Either there's a PT with an early timestamp but no activity until the Neighborizer dies, or there's a new PT created after the Neighborizer dies. Either way, it will be easy for those with access to infer what happened. Perhaps if the Neighborizer dies early enough, it would be plausible that two Neighborizers existed from the start...but even if the Neighborizer dies as early as N1, the second Neighborhood PT would become active no earlier than D3 (if the original Neighborizer dies D1 then no one else will have access to the original Neighborhood PT and players would not be able to compare the time stamps). Players with suspicious minds might think of a Mafia JOAT, I guess, but if a second player is added then there will not be much room for doubt.

I would agree that players will tend to assume that the Backup Neighborizer is Town rather than Mafia (although it is not strictly impossible for a Mafia Backup Neighborizer to exist with a Town Neighborizer). The problem is that most other roles that would fit this design space (Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child) would give players even more certainty!

(Also the Role Cop becomes even stronger with those, because results on them are more definitive than results on the Neighborizer.)

implosion · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:14 pm

although it is not strictly impossible for a Mafia Backup Neighborizer to exist with a Town Neighborizer

True.

And yeah, I guess there'll be some kind of telltale sign no matter what. It's possible to make it, at best, indistinguishable from a neighborizer who hadn't acted/had their action fail on night one (and any other night until the backup uses their ability).

Dierfire · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:20 pm

Aye, that makes sense.

So, I'll rephrase the Neighborizer abilities so that the PT is only created after the first successful action. That way, from a mechanical perspective, the only guaranteed information is that this is the first successful use of the action.

Dierfire · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:53 pm