Plum's Micro Normal Review, October 2019


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Plum's Micro Normal Review, October 2019

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:16 pm

Post by implosion »

Hello i've been told this is a thing.

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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:24 pm

Post by northsidegal »

wow!
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:16 pm

Post by Plum »

Hi, I have a setup!

Spoiler: Setup
Setup
  • 7 Town
    • Vanilla Town
      *4
    • Town Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor
      *1
    • Town Backup Tracker
      *1
    • Town Night 1 Informed
      *1 (Informed: full identity of Town Backup Tracker)
  • 2 Mafia
    • Mafia Encryptor
      *1
    • Mafia Informed
      *1 (informed: the game includes exactly zero Trackers and exactly one Backup Tracker)


Spoiler: Role PMs
Hello,
PLAYERNAME
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Vanilla Town
.

Abilities:
  • You have no special abilities.
You win when only members of the
Town
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Hello,
PLAYERNAME
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Town Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor
.

Abilities:
  • Fruit Vendor:
    Once every Night you may target another player to give them a piece of fruit.
    • Loyal:
      This ability will only resolve if you target a player who shares your alignment (
      Town
      ).
    • Simple:
      This ability will only resolve if your target is Vanilla (
      Vanilla Town
      or
      Mafia Goon
      ).
You win when only members of the
Town
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Hello,
PLAYERNAME_A
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Town Backup Tracker
.

Abilities:
  • Tracker:
    Once every Night you may target another player to see who they targeted that Night.
    • Backup:
      You may use this ability only if another player with an ability named
      Tracker
      has died.
You win when only members of the
Town
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Hello,
PLAYERNAME
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Town Night 1 Informed
.

Abilities:
  • Informed:
    (Passive)
    You know that the following information is true:
    • Night 1:
      (Passive)
      You will receive this ability's information on Night 1.
You win when only members of the
Town
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Hello,
PLAYERNAME_X
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Mafia Encryptor
.

Factional:
  • Mafia Team:
    Your teammate is
    PLAYERNAME_Y, Mafia Informed
    .
  • Mafia Communication:
    You may talk with your living teammates in the . You may talk there during Nights. You may also talk there during Days so long as your faction includes at least one living player with an ability named
    Encryptor
    .
  • Mafia Factional Kill:
    Once every Night, a living member of the Mafia may submit a factional kill action.
Abilities:
  • Encryptor:
    (Passive)
    Private topics you have access to are available for talk during Days.
You win when only members of the
Mafia
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Hello,
PLAYERNAME_Y
. Welcome to
Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
.

Your role in this game is
Mafia Informed
.

Factional:
  • Mafia Team:
    Your teammate is
    PLAYERNAME_X, Mafia Encryptor
    .
  • Mafia Communication:
    You may talk with your living teammates in the . You may talk there during Nights. You may also talk there during Days so long as your faction includes at least one living player with an ability named
    Encryptor
    .
  • Mafia Factional Kill:
    Once every Night, a living member of the Mafia may submit a factional kill action.
Abilities:
  • Informed:
    (Passive)
    You know that the following information is true:
    • This game includes exactly
      zero
      players with the role
      Tracker
      .
    • This game includes exactly
      one
      player with the role
      Backup Tracker
      .
[/list][/list]

You win when only members of the
Mafia
remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!


Spoiler: Game PMs
You have received a
piece of fruit
.


You receive the following:
  • Informed:
    (Passive)
    You know that the following information is true:
    • PLAYERNAME_A
      is a
      Town Backup Tracker
      .


Spoiler: Ruleset
General Rules
  • Read and obey the site rules.
  • Play to win.
  • Remember that everyone playing is actually a real person. Treat every player and Moderator in this game with a basic level of respect.
  • Do not talk about this game outside the thread unless your role allows you to, and then only in the manner expressly permitted by your role.
  • When you die, you must stop posting in any game-related topics immediately.
  • Do not edit posts, if you somehow have the powers to do so. Do not use invisible text. Do not use small text. Do not use or abuse cryptography. Do not do anything I haven't mentioned that breaks the spirit of this rule.
  • Do not quote any private communication from the moderator or from any sanctioned out-of-thread game communication (e.g. a Neighborhood private topic) in the game thread. Close paraphrases may or may not be prohibited by the spirit of this rule. If you're unsure, please ask me first.
  • The Moderator will not respond publicly to any direct public communication about this game (but will check for errors without comment if concerns about vote count accuracy are mentioned). If you have any questions or concerns, communicate them to the Moderator privately.
  • If you request replacement, you must stop posting in any game-related topics immediately. You may not replace back in or rescind your request.
  • Do not fake breaking a rule.
  • Participate actively.
    • I will send prod notifications to any player who has not posted over 48 real-life hours and is not V/LA.
    • If a player would receive their third prod notification, they will receive a prod notification and an official warning.
    • If a player would receive their fourth prod notification, they will be force-replaced.
    • If you have upcoming V/LA, please let me know privately. I will note V/LAs publicly. Players will not be sent prod notifications during their V/LA periods.
  • In the event of a rules infraction, the Moderator reserves the right to warn, to force-replace, and/or to Mod-kill with removal of win-condition.
    • If I have questions or concerns about rule breaking, game integrity, and/or appropriate response to rule breaking, I may consult the
      Game Integrity Consultant
      ,
      Username
      . This user is aware of the game's setup but not its role distribution and is intended to serve as an unbiased consultant for game integrity issues.


Game Participation Information and Guidelines
  • Plum
    is the color I will use for certain Moderator communication purposes.
  • Votes should be posted using vote tags (i.e. VOTE: Plum). It is not necessary to unvote before placing a new vote, but using an UNVOTE: alone will reset you to not voting anyone. If it looks like a vote on a player in this game, it will be treated as such.
  • A player is lynched when the number of votes for that player is greater than half of the number of living players. If there is no majority at deadline, there will be no lynch for that Day.
  • The deadline for each Day will be 10 real-life days. The deadline for each Night will be 48 hours.
  • This game obeys the constraints of a Normal Game.
    • This game does
      not enable Mafia factional daytalk by default
      .
    • This game includes at least one player assigned the role of
      Vanilla Town
      , with the following Role PM:
      Hello,
      PLAYERNAME
      . Welcome to
      Mafia ####: Autumnal Mafia
      .

      Your role in this game is
      Vanilla Town
      .

      Abilities:
      • You have no special abilities.
      You win when only members of the
      Town
      remain alive or nothing can prevent the same.

      Please confirm with your role name by PM and make sure to read the game rules in the before posting. Good luck and have fun!
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:03 pm

Post by Plum »

Oh, a minor correction, in the rules it says 10 day Days and 2 day Nights but actually because it's a Micro I'll be using 7 day Days/36 hour Nights.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:22 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I can probably pass it as is but I want a bit to think about it

The informed claiming tracker might just be autowin for scum
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:24 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Although in fairness there's enough setup evidence that they should consider that possibility anyway

Probably passing but yeah give me a bit

Thoughts NSG
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:38 am

Post by implosion »

I will chime in and say I think this setup is neat (though that is not a statement about balance!)
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:38 am

Post by Plum »

My thinking: Fruit Vendor can get hard innocent results on half the potential targets and PR/guilties on the rest (but is dependent on targets claiming fruit). N1 Informed is guaranteed a hard innocent result if they live to Day 2 (originally was just regular Informed but I guess I was thinking about early massclaim breaking strategies?) and can play out as soft-confirming themselves when they claim their information.

Mafia are essentially informed that Tracker is safe to claim, but if you massclaimed and had full Tracker, full Backup Tracker, Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor, and N1 Informed [X is Town Backup Tracker] claimed in a 9p, you'd expect something to be up because that would be hard to consider balanced even with Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker (assuming 7:2 I guess). It's a pretty good thing to claim if run up early but will have enough setup questions raised late game that it shouldn't be guaranteed. If they have to claim later it gives the Mafia interesting questions (maybe claiming 1-shot or other gated/limited Tracker would be better in some cases).

Note that with Encryptor and Informed Mafia, Encryptor has access to the relevant information Day 1 (so if they happen to be the one run up Day 1 they know the implications of claiming Tracker).
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:39 am

Post by implosion »

Whoa that was a weird ninja post.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:43 am

Post by Plum »

Whoa, lol. Glad you think it's neat. I mayyyyy start building a portfolio to apply to the NRG eventually ...
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:39 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Alright I've thought about it I'm willing to say the uncertainty swings both ways and I'll pass it unless NSG has objections
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:43 pm

Post by Plum »

Also interested in northsidegal's thoughts :)
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:01 pm

Post by northsidegal »

hm. i don't think this game is necessarily unbalanced, but i do think it almost entirely comes down to massclaim and thus the town's collective NRG knowledge. considering the fruit vendor as a sort of quasi-neapolitan, i'd say that it probably swings a bit more in town's favor than it does in scums, at least depending on when town decides to massclaim.

an early massclaim (say, day two, assuming the FV lives to get an action off) seems to indicate to me that the rest of the game would be almost decided mechanically, and a late massclaim or one where, say, the FV dies early seems to me to indicate that scum almost always wins.

perhaps i'm thinking about this too optimistically or pessimistically and not considering intermediate possibilities, and i'm interested to hear any disagreements. again, i don't think this setup is necessarily unbalanced such that it can't be run, but i do think it's very swingy.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:58 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I agree with your general thought process that it's a game that comes down to town correctly setup speccing the game more than anything and that isn't great but I'm still willing to pass it
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:03 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Unless you want to object, I'm willing to follow your objection
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:19 pm

Post by Plum »

I appreciate NSG's thoughts here - I'm going to sleep on it but I have some tentative ideas for a variation on this setup that keeps some if the subversive elements without being as binary.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:35 am

Post by Plum »

How do the reviewers think this setup compares to the previous version?

Spoiler: Setup
Setup
  • 7 Town
    • Vanilla Town
      *4
    • Town Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor
      *1
    • Town Backup Tracker
      *1
    • Town Night 1 Informed
      *1 (informed: full identity of Town Backup Tracker)
  • 2 Mafia
    • Mafia Informed Encryptor
      *1 (informed: the game includes exactly one Backup Tracker)
    • Mafia Multitasking 1-shot Fruit Vendor
      *1
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:37 am

Post by northsidegal »

no offense meant to you at all, but my first thought when i saw the mafia fruit vendor was "oh god". i designed a game once with a mafia fruit vendor PR along a town loyal FV and while i didn't follow it incredibly closely, from what i know scum stomped due to some clever fakeclaims. granted, that might have just been a particularly strong scumteam, but i think going forward my preference as a reviewer would be to minimize fruit roles beyond one, because i think for the most part all they do is add confusion.

the original setup—while it's possible it could come down in large part to massclaim and the town's knowledge of normal game balance—doesn't really have any "confounding variables" (unless you count the backup tracker/informed, but i would consider that more of a red herring and i would consider red herrings different than confounding variables).

i guess what it comes down to for me is that i can see the mafia fruit vendor making things a lot worse for the town and i don't think that's necessarily something that the original setup needed. interested to hear RC's thoughts
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:00 am

Post by Plum »

Lol no offense taken, I was trying to brainstorm something that left the red herring aspect mostly intact and important but made the game less about whether the Town can correctly figure out that the Tracker claim is scum in claim/massclaim situations, because that did seem less than desirable. So I toned back the information Mafia had so that they had more complex choices about what claims were good. But keeping Town Simple Loyal Fruit Vendor and the Informed getting a full inno Night 1, I wanted to bring the balance back (given that the issues brought up by the reviewers were essentially not about balance) by giving something pretty small but tactically useful, and I thought 1-shot Rolestopper was too strong and not really where I wanted to go with the setup. 1-shot FV seemed "safe" to me in that it could muddy the waters if used opportunely but didn't directly cause a misleading soft-guilty like Rolestopper could. But you're more experienced here and if Mafia FV is territory that scares you, that says something to me.

Maybe something else? Mafia Watcher? Mafia 1-shot Neighborizer?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:19 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I think this version is even worse along the lines that the original game is flawed in
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:29 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Like my issue with the original is 2 things

1) how much the game comes down to play around the informed mafioso
2) variance on the effectiveness of the fruit vendor which is essentially random

This doesn't really help with those and it introduces its own confision
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:46 am

Post by Plum »

Okay, that makes sense, I'll brainstorm more about it then.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:57 am

Post by Plum »

Spoiler: Setup
Setup
  • 7 Town
    • Vanilla Town
      *4
    • Town Friendly Neighbor
      *1
    • Town Backup Tracker
      *1
    • Town Night 1 Informed
      *1 (informed: full identity of Town Backup Tracker)
  • 2 Mafia
    • Mafia Informed
      *1 (informed: the game includes exactly one Backup Tracker)
    • Mafia Encryptor
      *1


This version replaces the Loyal Simple FV with Friendly Neighbor, which could address the "variance on the effectiveness of the fruit vendor" issue. Gives a hard innocent but only of one specific player, and doesn't vary in effectiveness based on whether they hit a Town non-Vanilla. The Town get a total of two hard confirmed innocents but no other direct power. In this version (as in the Mafia 1-shot FV one) the Town Informed and the Mafia are both aware that a Backup Tracker exists but have no information about whether a Tracker exists. Does this improve on the two major issues with the original setup?
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Post by Plum »

Hey everyone - any thoughts to bring the review process forward? Asking mostly because I saw the Micro queue signups moving fast.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Post by northsidegal »

oops, sorry about that. i think the friendly neighbor version is definitely a good setup. the confirmable nature of the FN should in some part reduce the reliance on balance knowledge / massclaim, although it's definitely still a factor (which isn't inherently a bad thing)

i would pass that version with the caveat that i think it's slight scumsided, but based on what i know of current site meta i think it's completely alright (if not outright the better thing to do) to pass slightly more scumsided setups.
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