Kerset's Mini Normal Review, May 2020

[implosion]

Ok thanks, there is no point in reviewing non-normal setup so here is updated version:

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Vanilla Cop

Neapolitan
Neighbor
Neighbor
Neighbor Encryptor
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

All neighbors share one PT.
Both town and mafia got no daytalk by default

Spoiler: Neighbor

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neighbor

.
You, y and z share a neighborhood. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Neighbor Encryptor

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neighbor Encryptor

.
You, y and z share a neighborhood. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You, and anyone else present, may talk in Private Topics containing you even during the Day.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Neapolitan

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neapolitan

.
You have the following active ability:
-Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: VT

Welcome x! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Goon

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your team-mates are y z. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have the following active ability:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Mafia V Cop

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

.
Your team-mates are y z. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have the following active abilities, but may use only one per night:

-Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will receive "Vanilla", if your target is either Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon or "Not Vanilla", if your target has different role.
-Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

[implosion]

Primary: northsidegal
Secondary: Ircher

[northsidegal]

so this setup is too scumsided for me to pass it without any doubt. even if you just straight up turned the neapolitan into a cop it would still be fairly strongly scumsided and so that should speak a little bit as to how weak the neapolitan actually is.

a lot of NRG members will tell you that the typical standard for balance is 0-1 mafia PRs vs roughly 4 moderately powerful town PRs or one or two more powerful town PRs plus a few weaker ones. this is by no means any sort of steadfast rule, but i'd consider it a pretty good rough guideline for estimating balance. another necessary consideration is player expectations – this isn't only just a useful guideline for estimating balance, it's pretty much what most players expect when they play a normal game. in most setups, deviating from that expectation is utility for scum because it makes their fakeclaims believable – in this setup, i would say that anything scum fakeclaimed would be practically undeniable. neighbors on their own are generally not considered to increase town utility, and so it would be fairly unbelievable to most to have a setup with only a single town power role.

to put it into perspective, i think that most NRG members would agree with me in considering that 3 goons vs 3 masons is still slightly scumsided in a closed setup, and that town requires slightly more power. so if you were to turn all of the neighbors here into masons, that to me would immediately put the setup a lot closer to balanced. i'd still have to think about it a bit to consider whether or not neapolitan would be too much in that instance, but there is the vanilla cop to balance it out a bit.

so, yeah. i'm just the reviewer and not the one making the setup so it's up to you as to the changes you want to make, but as it stands now i would say that this is too scumsided for me to pass.

[Kerset]

How about adding backup neapolitan?

[northsidegal]

that's a step in the right direction but still not enough in my opinion. like i said, i think this is generally a good base guideline:

a lot of NRG members will tell you that the typical standard for balance is 0-1 mafia PRs vs roughly 4 moderately powerful town PRs or one or two more powerful town PRs plus a few weaker ones.

and, in this setup (as with most setups), neighbors don't really count as "power roles".

[Kerset]

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Vanilla Cop

Neapolitan
Complex Tracker Neighbor
Neighbor
Neighbor Encryptor
Back-up Neapolitan
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

All neighbors share one PT.
Both town and mafia got no daytalk by default

I though from looking at mastina discussions that her rule was to give one more PR to town over maf.

Complex tracker is unlikely to catch a kill but he can find fake claims, which seems to be weak spot here.

Is it still scumsided?

[northsidegal]

erm, i think that's a fairly poor rule, personally.

it's getting closer but i still don't think it's there.

i'm gonna give ircher a chance to chime in.

[Ircher]

Yeah, I don't think this is quite there either. I believe that Complex Tracker is a very weak role in a normal setup because a tracker's main power comes from it being able to detect kills. In addition, trackers by themselves actually aren't that strong against 3 scum. They not only have to find scum to get a guilty; they also have to find the specific one that made the kill. Thus, when there are many scum left, it's very unlikely a normal tracker catches a scum. Trackers are only strong in the endgame where they can provably get innocents with one scum left.

My personal opinion on the setup is that removing the complex modifier is probably enough by itself.

[Kerset]

Sure normal tracker seems fine as well.
If you feel that town is weak then maybe I should replace backup with doctor/babysitter?

[Kerset]

A

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Vanilla Cop

Neapolitan
Tracker Neighbor
Neighbor
Neighbor Encryptor
Back-up Neapolitan
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

All neighbors share one PT.
Both town and mafia got no daytalk by default

B

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Vanilla Cop

Neapolitan
Tracker Neighbor
Neighbor
Neighbor Encryptor
2-shot Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

All neighbors share one PT.
Both town and mafia got no daytalk by default

[northsidegal]

i think both of these still lean scumsided but not to a non-passable degree, although i might take some flak from it in post-game. of the two i would prefer A over B

what do you think of making the neapolitan the PR in the neighborhood instead of the tracker? so the proposed would be:

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Vanilla Cop

Neapolitan Neighbor
Backup Neapolitan
Tracker
Neighbor Encryptor
Neighbor
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

also, i have to say that personally i consider daytalk by default to just be the more enjoyable way to play games, but that's really just my opinion and doesn't really mean anything from a review perspective. if that's the way you want it, that's fine.

[Kerset]

Thanks Northy! In general I agree with you about daytalk but I am really curious to see players paranoia whenever encryptor is town or scum. Especially when Neapolitan can't check him.

[Kerset]

I am satisfied with the setup that you proposed.

[northsidegal]

okay. i'm still gonna give it a little time for me to mull it over and for ircher to say anything else, but in the meantime i'll need to see your updated role PMs, your night result PMs, and your ruleset

[Kerset]

Rules

Borrowed from Plotinus

• Follow all site rules.
  
  
• Mod colour
  – My mod colour is FF8000; i will cut off your fingers for using it.
  
• Behaviour
  - Don’t be a dick. This is a heated game but toxicity will not be tolerated. Attack the play not the player. If your fellow players tell you to stop, you must stop. If you do not stop, I will tell you to stop. If you still do not stop, you will be force-replaced. Asking people to stop voting you or to stop scumhunting you entirely doesn't count for this rule and you may find yourself lynched if you try it.
  
• Don't talk about ongoing games
  - You may not talk to each other about this game outside of threads I have created for this purpose. You may not talk about other ongoing games in this thread.
  
• Animated GIFs
  - are of the devil, but they are permitted behind spoilers if clearly labelled as such.
  
• Tiny text
  - is also of the devil, keep it 70+ please.
  
• Provable randomness
  - is against the rules. Saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tags or random.org is not.
  
• Claiming scum
  - by yourself is fine. Claiming scum with another player is against the rules.
  
• Cryptography
  - is forbidden. Breadcrumbing is okay.
  
• Confirmation
  - You have about 72 hours to confirm your role and your alignment by PM. Game will start sooner if at least 7 players confirms. Posting in a private topic counts as confirmation.
  
• Days
  - Day lasts 10 IRL days. Extensions may be granted if there are replacements.
  
• Activity
  - You must post at least once every 48 hours or I will Prod you. You then have 48 hours to post in the game thread or I will replace you. A player who has been prodded 3 times will be subject to replacement with no further notice. If you come back before I find a replacement, you can stay. Players can request me to prod somebody early. This will only count as an official prod if you don't post before you would have been due for a prod. If you haven't posted in the 24 hours before the thread is locked for night, you must reply to the night start PM or you will be replaced during the night.
  
• Vacation/Limited Access
  - If you need to be absent for longer than this, you should declare V/LA in bold in the thread like this:
  @Mod: I will be v/la until Thursday
  . While you are V/LA, you will be nudged once every 54 hours. Two nudges equals one prod. If you have not posted game advancing content in 5 days, regardless of V/LA status, you will be replaced.
  
• Prodging
  - A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."
  
• Quoting
  - You may not quote (or copy paste) any private information into the thread, including your role PM and any mod communication.
  
• Voting
  - Votes must be in bold in the format VOTE: Kerset or Vote: Kerset. Strong preference for using vote tags instead of bold tags. Unvotes are nice but not required. If I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote, no tricks. Type VOTE: Kerset to vote and UNVOTE: Kerset to unvote.
  
• Lynching
  - Days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to lynch somebody. Lynches are compulsive. There is no no-lynch option, and if nobody reaches majority by deadline, whoever has the most votes first will be lynched instead.
  
• Twilight
  - Begins when a majority is reached and lasts until I lock the thread. You're still alive until I flip you so you can talk in any game threads you have access to until then, but no votes or unvotes will be counted.
  
• Night
  - Night lasts at least 48 hours. The night phase can be shortened if every living player -- even those with no night actions -- agrees to it and if I'm not busy.
  
• Daytalk
  - By default there is no daytalk.
  
• Action submissions
  - You may submit actions via PM (if town) or PT (if scum). If the actions are not submitted by the deadline then you do nothing. You can change your mind as many times as you like before the deadline.
  
• Reminders
  - If I don't hear from you about your night actions, I'll PM you 24 hours before the deadline. This doesn't count as a prod. If I still don't hear from you, you will take no action.
  
• Notes PT
  - Let me know if you want a private thread to store your thoughts and feedback for the other players. This thread will be made public immediately after the game. You may draft posts in your notes PT but you may not talk about your notes PT in public. You definitely may not use the notes PT to demonstrate that you've had a town mindset in private all along; just put your town mindset in public to begin with and keep your notes to yourself.
  
• Play to win
  - this particular game, not some future one, and keep it fun!

[Kerset]

Spoiler: Neighbor

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neighbor

.
You, y and z share a neighborhood. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Neighbor Encryptor

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neighbor Encryptor

.
You, y and z share a neighborhood. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You, and anyone else present, may talk in Private Topics containing you even during the Day.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Neapolitan N

Welcome x! You are a

Town Neapolitan Neighbor

.
You, y and z share a neighborhood. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have the following active ability:
-Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: B Neapolitan

Welcome x! You are a

Town Back-up Neapolitan

.
You have the following active ability:
-Each Night but only once a Neapolitan has died, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Tracker

Welcome x! You are a

Town Tracker

.

You have the following active ability:
-Each night, you may investigate one player in the game and you will discover which player they targeted (if any)

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: VT

Welcome x! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Goon

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your team-mates are y z. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have the following active ability:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Mafia V Cop

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Vanilla Cop

.
Your team-mates are y z. By default you may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations only.

You have the following active abilities, but may use only one per night:

-Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will receive "Vanilla", if your target is either Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon or "Not Vanilla", if your target has different role.
-Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Your target visited

Your target is Vanilla townie

Your target is Vanilla

[northsidegal]

Lynching - Days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to lynch somebody. Lynches are compulsive. There is no no-lynch option, and if nobody reaches majority by deadline, whoever has the most votes first will be lynched instead.

i'm not sure that plurality lynches are normal.

@implo?

[implosion]

Yeah, there should be a no-lynch option in normals.

[implosion]

As for deadline plurality lynching, I'm more okay with that in theory? I'm not sure if there's precedent.

[Kerset]

Lynching - Days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to lynch somebody. If a majority is not reached at deadline or if a majority of the players vote for no lynch, the day will end without a lynch. At evens, 50% is sufficient for no lynch.

[northsidegal]

okay, i didn't see any obvious problems with your role PMs. you didn't give negative result PMs but really those would just be "Your target isn't a Vanilla Townie" so it's probably not worth making you type them out here

and as it seems this'll be up next given umlaut's mini filled, i think i've delayed long enough

/pass