JacksonVirgo's Mini Normal Review, October 2020

implosion · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:44 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Malpractice
Town Macho Doctor Enabler

Town Doctor

Town Doctor

Town Odd-Night Role Cop

Town Even-Night Gunsmith

Vanilla Townie

Vanilla Townie

Vanilla Townie

Vanilla Townie

Vanilla Townie

Mafia Enabler Finder

Mafia Doctor

Mafia Informed Goon

Role Information

Informed Goon - "There are 3 Doctor's"

implosion · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:45 pm

Primary: mastina
Secondary: Ircher

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:39 pm

Greetings this is an ego post since I’m at work

ISO · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:04 am

In post 2, JacksonVirgo wrote:Greetings this is an ego post since I’m at work

^
Would like to say that eyeballing this setup, it's quirky, but might be close to balanced, but will need to recheck later this weekend.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:59 pm

If it gets rejected, does it get straight rejected or do we talk and try and balance it?

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:33 pm

The one real swing I can see is via the role cop because of the informed and finder.

ISO · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:39 pm

We talk and try to balance it.

In terms of this game: it's quirky to the point of risking being a themed game (the nrg's meant to balance things, but also has to judge Normalcy of making sure a Normal game fits within the guidelines expected of a Normal game, and this setup being heavily Doctor-centric risks skewing the line), but in my opinion, it's still passable as Normal, albeit a quirky Normal. (This, rather than the balance of the setup, though, is actually what I most want a second opinion on from Ircher, since I am aware that I am usually at the edge of the line in allowing things many reviewers would deem better for a theme game.)

In terms of balance, my gut reaction is slightly scumsided, but not strongly so. The scum have most of the information about the setup, knowing there's two town doctors and that there's a doctor enabler (they don't directly know the latter, but it is easily inferred by their enabler-finder), and the majority of the town's power is the two doctors who can be disabled, and might counterclaim each other, and might make the gunsmith suspicious of them due to mafia doctors being a common gunsmith false innocent (a fear which is in fact justified due to the mafia doctor).

These all give scum a very very very strong advantage.
But on the

other

hand, two town doctors if the scum don't kill the enabler allows for an infinite-heal loop and also gives incredibly strong kill-denial, as well as allowing for follow-the-cop in protecting the gunsmith and the rolecop. The rolecop in this game also is good at getting guilties and innocents, able to catch a mafia doctor who fails to claim that they are a doctor, able to clear the macho doctor enabler because scum are 99.99999% likely to not have a macho modifier, able to infer that the gunsmith is town from their odd/even synergy, and is able to infer that the enabler-finder is a scum role fairly easily (not to mention that the Informed goon is a guilty if the player hasn't claimed Informed since Informed town usually claim their info D1), if given even partial setup information.

However, these advantages rely on the town gaining and interpreting information correctly fairly early, which they are unlikely to do.

Basically, if the town play this well, it's hard for them to lose because scum have very little counterplay, but if the town doesn't play well and/or the scum do play well, then the scum can easily circumvent a vast majority of the town's power.

I'd call the game incredibly swingy off of that, and probably in the 55-57.5:42.5-45% scum:town range--not perfectly balanced, and very swingy, but passable as-is as a setup if you're okay with that.

But before giving this a /pass, I do want to hear from my secondary reviewer Ircher here for a second opinion on this.

ISO · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:44 pm

Hmm, thinking about it:
A slight buff to the town would be swapping the even/odd on the investigatives.
An even-night investigative is likely to only get 1-2 investigations in; an odd-night investigative is likely to get 2-3 investigations in.

The gunsmith here getting more investigations helps the town a little (because there's still two guilties, albeit one false innocent and one false guilty), and the rolecop being later in gives the rolecop an extra day/night of roleclaims to better use the info come D3. (Basically, a rolecop is more likely to get better mileage from their role after there's more setup info available, and there will be more setup information available D3 than there would be on D2.)

That'd probably take it to the 52-55:45-48 scum:town range. Still swingy as fuck, but almost dead on the mark in terms of balance in my opinion.

But again, wanna hear Ircher's thoughts there.

ISO · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:34 am

As far as balance goes, I am pretty much in agreement with mastina--it seems somewhat scumsided, but if things go right, town is really strong in this setup. It seems balanced enough to run as-is.

Now with regards to normalcy, I am not so sure. Clearly, the setup is normal by the letter, but does it match the spirit of normalcy? If we look at the Normal Guidelines wiki page, it has this at the bottom:

Games which are otherwise Normal may still be more suited to a different Queue. For example, a game with a large number of Doctors may be better run as an Open Game (after review in the Open Discussion Thread) or as a "Hospital" Themed Game.

I feel this setup falls under this guideline. Three of any role (besides vanilla and neighbor/mason) in a normal tends to be pretty unusual, especially if they are of the exact same form. Furthermore, while I am a proponent of having setups that revolve around a certain central idea, this one seems to revolve a bit too heavily around the interaction of the two town doctors.

That being said, I think it is a setup that is within the realm of normal expectations that you could run it in the normal queue. It is just that I think it may be better suited for another queue as the quote from the wiki suggests.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:01 am

Switching the investigatives is no problem.

A way to make the setup a little less doctor-sided may be to have a Doctor enabler with only one doctor and another protective, maybe like a Babysitter but the killing ability on that role is what I don't want is all. JK would end up blocking the doctor which defeats the point so it may actually need to be a doctor to keep it's thing.

I understand that it may be realllly pushing towards not being normalcy but I lowkey tried to push the boundaries to see if this setup would work and I really hope it does O.O

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:11 pm

Spoiler:

That's the current edited setup, would it be better if the Maf doctor is removed and informed result is changed accordingly.

ISO · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:48 am

In post 10, JacksonVirgo wrote:That's the current edited setup, would it be better if the Maf doctor is removed and informed result is changed accordingly.

That'd both buff the gunsmith, making the setup less scumsided, and make the game be further from the "almost a theme" mark. So I'd say it'd be better, yes.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:13 pm

In post 11, mastina wrote:
In post 10, JacksonVirgo wrote:That's the current edited setup, would it be better if the Maf doctor is removed and informed result is changed accordingly.
That'd both buff the gunsmith, making the setup less scumsided, and make the game be further from the "almost a theme" mark. So I'd say it'd be better, yes.

Changing it to a Mafia goon

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:14 pm

Also a gunsmith with a doctor enabler puts heat on the doctor claims, also makes innocent results less reliable

I think

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:02 pm

Spoiler: Malpractice V3

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:21 pm

Is that good enough for a pass?

ISO · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:12 pm

I need to see the role PMs, but the setup is good to me, yes.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:55 pm

Spoiler: Role Cards

Town Macho Doctor Enabler

If you die, the role “Doctor” will cease to function for all players. You cannot be protected from kills.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Doctor

Each night you may target a player, you will protect them from one kill that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Doctor

Each night you may target a player, you will protect them from one kill that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Odd-Night Gunsmith

On odd numbered nights you can check a player to see if they have a gun or not. Roles that have guns are all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Vengefuls, Detectives, Neapolitans, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Even-Night Role Cop

On even numbered nights you may check a player to see their exact role, you will not see their alignment.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Vanilla Townie

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Enabler-Finder

Each night you may check a player to see if they have the role, or a role that includes, "Enabler" or not. If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill instead of your normal ability.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Informed Goon

Mafia Informed Goon

You have no active abilities, however you are informed that there's two doctor's in the game. If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Goon

You have no active abilities

If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

ISO · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:58 am

Just need the result PMs from the gunsmith, rolecop, and enabler-finder now.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:23 pm

Spoiler: Results

ISO · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:10 pm

Even though it's not possible given the setup, can I see the "no result" pms?
Also, can I see what you plan to put in the "your target is an [x]", exactly?

Small things, but necessary to make sure there's no errors.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:28 pm

In post 20, mastina wrote:Even though it's not possible given the setup, can I see the "no result" pms?
Also, can I see what you plan to put in the "your target is an [x]", exactly?

Small things, but necessary to make sure there's no errors.

Oh yeah sure, I didn't add the no result ones because they literally cannot happen but yep.

Spoiler:

I'm not entirely certain I have the informed goon result right but I am confident that it's fine. Lemme know tho ofc

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:35 pm

All in one place.

Spoiler: Malpractice Setup

Spoiler: Role Cards

Town Macho Doctor Enabler

If you die, the role “Doctor” will cease to function for all players. You cannot be protected from kills.

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Doctor

Each night you may target a player, you will protect them from one kill that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Doctor

Each night you may target a player, you will protect them from one kill that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Odd-Night Gunsmith

On odd numbered nights you can check a player to see if they have a gun or not. Roles that have guns are all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Vengefuls, Detectives, Neapolitans, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Town Even-Night Role Cop

On even numbered nights you may check a player to see their exact role, you will not see their alignment.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Vanilla Townie

You have no active abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Enabler-Finder

Each night you may check a player to see if they have the role, or a role that includes, "Enabler" or not. If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill instead of your normal ability.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Informed Goon

Mafia Informed Goon

You have no active abilities, however you are informed that there's two doctor's in the game. If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Mafia Goon

You have no active abilities

If no other member of your faction is doing this, you may perform the factional kill.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Results

ISO · Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:27 pm

I think Informed Vanilla is fine--it'd be that or just "Informed", but both are technically accurate I think.
You also need the macho doctor, odd-night gunsmith, and enabler-finder results for the rolecop.

JacksonVirgo · Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:48 pm

Role CopYour target is a Macho Doctor-Enabler

Role CopYour target is an Odd-Night Gunsmith

Role CopYour target is an Enabler Finder