Noraa's Mini Normal review, January 2021
- Isis
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It is a bit guessable. I'm also not sure I tallied in the strength dead mafia backup doctor softclearing the town doctor.
If you're doing the gunsmith vig mafdoctor trinity, I don't think the modifiers on those three roles are as helpful for obfuscating the setup as trying to mess with the other elements, though."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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Town Loyal Alien
Town Night 1,3 Jailkeeper
Town Backup Gunsmith
Town Novice 3-shot Vigilante
VT*6
Mafia Gunsmith
Mafia 1-shot Activated Ascetic
Mafia Goon
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Come play Guess that Scummer OR ELSE- Isis
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I hate town enough to pass something like this, as-is, but this probably needs a nudge in the town's favor. I think ungating the JK would be enough."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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in what was is it bad for town exactly?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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(warning: secondary reviewer opinion alert) i think it's not exactly townsided, butprobablystill balanced enough to pass.
i'd say it's bad for town because a lot of the roles have sort of anti-synergy. there's also a lot of blocking power in the alien and the jailkeeper and pretty low investigation power in the backup gunsmith.
also, something to note is that the setup as-is has a potential NAR paradox which i'm not immediately sure of how to resolve: let's say that the alien and jailkeeper block each other, and the mafia gunsmith investigates the jailkeeper. should it get a result? i guess the same question could be asked for the vig shooting either one of them- northsidegal
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let me clarify this a bit too. in a lot of normal games, if you imagine the absolute best case scenario for mechanical play from both sides, it'll typically look like a huge blowout for town with the scumteam probably getting destroyed by day 2 or day 3. this is because normal games tend to be "skewed" in favor of town, with skew defined as a balance property where one faction is able to make massive gains if they play well or get lucky, while the other faction does not have that ability. normal games almost always tend to be skewed in favor of town: one, because we don't expect players to play mechanically perfectly and so we balance around that, and two because town power roles tend to be more impactful than mafia power roles. optimal scum mechanical play typically just looks like killing the strongest PR and maybe roleblocking someone else if scum has that role, but as i said optimal town PR play is way more impactful.In post 30, northsidegal wrote:i'd say it's bad for town because a lot of the roles have sort of anti-synergy.
this is a sort of rare example of a setup that actually seems relatively evenly skewed, or perhaps even skewed in favor of scum. of course, like i said, we don't balance around completely optimal play because that isn't unlikely to happen, but i still like to keep an eye on the skew, because even a single good shot early on in a neutral or scum-skewed game can leave town feeling like they never had a chance. (of course, a lot of scum players will complain about townsided games and the scumteam never having a chance in normal games, but again: we try to balance for average games)- northsidegal
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now that i think about it that point about skew and the point about anti-synergy actually aren't the same thing at all so i'm not sure why i said any of that was clarifying my earlier post
anyways i still think it's passable- Isis
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Hm.. I feel like NAR itself ought to incorporate a severability concept to resolve paradoxes like that. Like, Alien does two things, it roleblocks, and it rolestops. Once it's been raised that there is some kind of paradox, look at whether Alien is a role that can be severed into multiple components (it can). Then apply NAR logic to each of the components. Is the rolestop dependent on not getting jailkept, and is the jailkeep dependent on not getting rolestopped? The rolestop is dependent on not getting jailkept, but the jailkeep is not dependent on not getting rolestopped (the rolestop only applies to other people), therefore NAR says the jailkeep wins. The gunsmith gets to see stuff.
A similar analysis would sever the doctor off of the Jailkeeper and conclude that the vig successfully kills.
That's kind of a proposal for inventing the wheel but as far as I know this is territory that's been considered "nobody knows" ground. NAR paradoxes like this are rather rare.
I don't really want to change the setup just because of the paradox because I like the way the alien and JK function here (or dysfunction here, there is some lack of synergy in the general layout of the setup but that can be a good thing, to me, it's part of a heterogenous meta). I'd rather chance it and make some kind of ruling if it comes up. Stars have to align pretty hard for it to happen. You could maybe slightly shift the gating to make it even less likely"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Isis
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I don't think you can shift the gating in any way that helps actually. Because the JK is already acting on the night when the vigilante isn't acting."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Isis
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I pass #26, but I want a moderator note about the double roleblock in addition to rules and role PMs. Making the wrong ruling is fine, deciding on a ruling later when it happens and involves players you've been spectating and feel biased towards is less preferable than hashing that out precisely beforehand."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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doesn't jk get lower priority in NAR? at least from what i recallWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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and i kinda like where town's at in terms of power rn, so i could make the mafia gunsmith Odd-Night if you wantWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Do you dislike or like the current balance? I passed 26.
I don't really like the feel in such a heavily gated mafia gunsmith, I'd prefer 26.
JK and alien are both roleblocking type roles, both at "level 4". It's an ambiguous interaction."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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Blocking - Roleblocker, Rolestopper, Alien
Jailkeep - Jailkeeper
order of priority from the normal NAR wiki page
and i like where the current balance is at, but i've seen y'all express concern so...White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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I didn't know there's a separate NAR page just for normal games. I was using the general NAR page.
I don't really understand why it would be set up that way when a jailkeeper is just a Combined Roleblocker Doctor with flavor but, yeah, just go with that I guess."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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yeah, agree that it's kinda weird, but at least it gives us our answers
so, role PMs time?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Yes, role PM, results PMs, and rules. Noraa PMed me a draft of her rules (but I didn't review them, she just wanted help with BBCode), so she's not offloading that part on you, if that wasn't clear yet"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Gypyx
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Gypyx She/HerJack of All Trades
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i know that, just making sureWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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'ight so i'm the one making role PMs
[/quote]
gunsmith feedback
[TARGET] has a gun
[TARGET] doesn't have a gun
you didn't receive any results, your action failed
this role PM format is painWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Noraa ze/zirfluffy tsunami
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I feel like ur in the wrong thread O_ODream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
Come play Guess that Scummer OR ELSE- Noraa
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Noraa ze/zirfluffy tsunami
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but shank you gypyx <333333333
u da best! I'll get u a dragon called Jeff soon!Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
Come play Guess that Scummer OR ELSE- Gypyx
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wdymWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (10/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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don't role pms go in the mod pt O_oDream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
Come play Guess that Scummer OR ELSE- Gypyx
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YAY THANK U
i'm taking back the insults at threw at you during the alt hunt < 3
pedit : yeah but isis gotta approve those
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