Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Hi all. Won’t have a chance to get really stuck in until this evening (GMT) but the Goo is confident that aVote: LLDis the best place to start. She went out of her way to draw scum in the last Team Mafia and wouldn’t let a little thing like having her preference being public knowledge stop her from taking a scum PM again if possible.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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LLD: My preliminary lunch-break skimread of the skirt stuff is that it’s weird that he’s acting like his who-picked-scum theorising started here in this thread rather than in his team PT. Your criticism of his levels of conviction is reasonable. Caveat: I don’t know him at all and I can’t remember if I know anything about his team. Agree that mathdino looks very town.
More in-depth read of the game coming this evening as promised.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Dunker hadn't yet posted by the time that you made this post. Why did you already believe that he is town?In post 18, skirt skirt wrote:I adamantly believe Keychain and Dunker are town off of this game
Forgive me if I've forgotten, but have we played together before?In post 20, Mathdino wrote:I would be surprised if CDB comes back and goes scum after however many years (or has he been playing recently?).#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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I'm trying really hard to imagine someone actually being interested in the nature of someone's page-one null read, and I can't.In post 27, Keychain wrote:I'm interested in your Elena nullread, I'm leaning more scum there.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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This seems to be implying that I poo-pooed an argument of this kind of somewhere, which I don't remember doing. I've skimmed most of the thread already before this proper read, so technically I have read some of the meta talk, and generally I'm in favour. I mean, I'm literally voting for LLD right now because I think that, if her team got at least one scum PM, she took one. But it's harder for me to connect to some of those meta-reads w/r/t people I don't know, which unfortunately covers most of the players in this game. The fact that most of those meta-reads will be being made by people I also don't know makes it harder for me to put blind faith in them. So I'm probably going to be nice and hypocritical about it, pushing on my own meta reads while mostly ignoring other people's.In post 193, Mathdino wrote:1. CDB, have you not yet read the meta-arguments for people choosing their side, or do you just disagree with that logic?
Apologies to my fellow Brits, I suppose, but you're correct that I would prefer being town in this scenario. I would have been willing to play scum to protect other members of my team if needs be, but luckily that wasn't necessary.2. We haven't but I'm pretty sure you're the most famous scummer fromthatside of the pond. You've shown up in more than a few older reads. You come off as someone who would be more comfortable with town unless practiced.
This is me working on that right now. I was gonna read up, take notes, and do a big post but it looks like it's shaping up to be more updates-as-I-go.give us reads o english one#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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I reread everything a few times to see if I could see it the exact same way that you did, and while I agree that there is a difference in levels of conviction between Skirt and Dino (and that that is one of the main things that I look for when scumhunting), I am readier to accept that as a product of the lack of private-topic discussion that Skirt has proclaimed*. What I find more concerning specifically is the predicting that he'd get dinged for agreeing too much and playing it off in a 'please be more interesting' way. Self-consciousness happens to both town and scum, but the forced way he plays it cool there feels like it is more likely to fall on the scummy side of that. Still working out what I make of his playstyle in general, though.In post 63, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
When you get a chance can you read Skirt's opening interaction with MathDino and reply with thoughts specifically wrt my posting and Math's posting on the past 2 pages.In post 58, ChannelDelibird wrote:Hi all. Won’t have a chance to get really stuck in until this evening (GMT) but the Goo is confident that aVote: LLDis the best place to start. She went out of her way to draw scum in the last Team Mafia and wouldn’t let a little thing like having her preference being public knowledge stop her from taking a scum PM again if possible.
Thanks.
*That said, Skirt, you're a sweet summer child if you think I'll actually be reading anyone's past games for this.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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And yet this more meaningfully so.In post 64, Keychain wrote:
This seems very shallow.In post 61, skirt skirt wrote:I spoke to my team about whos read this game just for you baby
transcend called dino town, giga eyerolled at lld's scumread of me and called them gut town#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Given that there was discussion about how much attention your teammates had already been paying to this game, I wasn't surprised that you'd pass on something in the way and tone that you did, and while itIn post 217, skirt skirt wrote:
hm?In post 215, ChannelDelibird wrote:And yet this more meaningfully so.wasshallow, that wasn't the point of the post, and making a post purely to say 'well this is shallow' as if to cast aspersions on you feels exceedingly easy, the kind of low-effort scumread I'd jump on as scum.
I at least recognise Transcend's username, which is more than I can say for many people in this competition, but if we ever played together then I'm afraid that I don't remember it at all.Have you played with Transcend before? Do you know why he'd think 119 was a scum claim from you?
The words you paraphrased in 135 don't seem to actually involve calling my vote a scumclaim, only that Transcend "didn't like it", but if that was actually the strength of his conviction then that'd be ridiculous. I can imagine someone not liking the vote, though I'd be close to calling them factually wrong for it, but being factually wrong about that kind of thing doesn't mean much.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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It's a bit weird, but there's so much more hedging in #18, as already noted, and I guess it also contains the word 'lol', so I can kind of imagine it being taken in a jokey way, in a sort of 'deliberately bad' way. If that reads like I'm jumping through hoops to make Elena's interpretation make sense, that's because I am a little bit as the alternative is that Elena didn't interpret that way and is constructing a weird fiction around it that she'd know would look implausible, and I don't really see what the point of that would be, so I feel like the simplest explanation - 'she did read it that way' - is probably correct.In post 78, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In this post he even kind of gets his "joking pre-game quick read shit" out of the way, calls it useless, and then asks for someone to play the "who would take scum PM" game with himIn post 16, skirt skirt wrote:<big post snipped by CDB but the quote link might be helpful for following the conversation>
How can that sequence of events be interpreted as a joke if you actualy read that sequence of events? I don't understand.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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The posts are consistent - if Skirt is in this game for fun as his top priority over victory.In post 126, Bins wrote:skirt skirt - He said he would take the scum PM, he said Transcend would take the scum PM, he said they didn't get a scum PM. Skrew pointed this out as weird right when it happened.
I would take scum if we rolled scum (lol we all rolled town I stg not that you know that) if we valued winning over everything because I have a significantly better scum wr than my team afaik, but I wouldn't if we were playing more socially and for fun.
???I can tell you straight up if we had rolled a scum pm I would have not wanted to take it. We didn't regardless which is good because none of us wanted it. Probably would've given it to Transcend tbh
???
?????#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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In post 236, Mathdino wrote:Tonereading is, in the most part, shit.
That said, I have a quality read on CDB's last few posts.
VERY strong Brit-read.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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See, Skirt, and here I was just coming in to point out that this post...
...seems less consistent with that mindset.In post 154, skirt skirt wrote:I know exactly what you mean. I don't think team mafia is the place for my shitposting style. Nor my spam or rxn test styles. I'm trying to make sure this doesn't devolve into one of the games I get into a massive 1v1 and create a toxic gamestate, you've been in 1 or 2 games with me where that's happened recently I think. If you'll notice, I'm also trying to compile posts instead of multiposting.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Skimmed the last handful of pages a little more than I intended because this took longer than I expected and I have other stuff I need to do before bed, but quick summary of where I'm at:
I'd be voting for Keychain if this were any old game, but for now I still prefer my vote on LLD. I would be interested to see a Bins wagon, though no guarantees I'd actually get on it.
Little ping on Skirt for tone earlier, W slash R slash T his self-consciousness, but a few pages later am less bothered by it now that I've seen a little bit more of him, and am interested in keeping him around for further study.
Dino, Dunker and Elena are town enough that my life will be easier if I just don't acknowledge them as serious candidates for a lynch Today. Of those, Dino is the only one I would describe as 'strong town' but it'll all do for now.
I should probably have a read on Radja but I don't. Very mild townpoints for stated meta reasons, I guess.
I would like to see a little more from Smocaine and A50.
T-Bone, Aeronaut and UCV are purportedly in this game.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Two instances of asking questions or making points that are entirely vapid, looking to me more like scum busywork than genuine scumhunting. The relevant posts are quoted in my iso (I’d find them now but I’m on mobile.)In post 318, Bulbazak wrote:@CDB: Can you give me more about your Key scumread? I thought his entrance felt off, but with everything else that's happened in this thread, he still feels like a big pile of blah to me. I'm wondering if you saw something that I missed yet gut picked up on.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Let's just call my lack of vote on her me meeting you halfway here.In post 339, Mathdino wrote:CDB, I think you should trust the Keychain townread for now, given that almost everyone is agreed on her meta, her preferences, and her entrance into this game.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Yeah, I know, we're very different players, it's hilarious. I'm not super high on patience right now and would really like to be able to get a stronger foothold in this game. Please, if you want the town to win (or want to appear like you do), just indulge me a bit and talk about it, even if most of the answer involves explaining why I'm an idiot for asking.In post 426, Almost50 wrote:In post 424, ChannelDelibird wrote:Hey Almost, where did your Bins vote come from? I can't find anything to support it in your iso.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Thanks, Almost. I appreciate it.
I'm not going to jump on the wagon right now. Before you replied to me here, I was a bit skeeved out by its existence, as last night I had said that I'd be interested to see a Bins wagon appear, and lo and behold one appeared that didn't appear to have materialised for much of any particular reason. I am trying to work out exactly how much this should bother me.
I actually think, now that you've laid out the entire timeline of this in exhaustion, that Bins has a bit of a point here. All we see of Dino reconsidering on Bins is that one of his team thinks her entrance was "weird", which might be literally the bare minimum of detail that could be provided.In post 433, Almost50 wrote:
And she ignores Dino's read development on her and refers only to his initial TR.In post 418, Bins wrote:
likeIn post 409, Mathdino wrote:I don't feel great about disagreeing with Creature, but for now, sure.
VOTE: Bins
i don’t know how i go from “probtown” to becoming a contender for you
like paranoia is real
----
Take your time, LLD. Hope you feel better soon.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Limited access warning: I’ll be away at a trade show until ~24 hours from now and will be exhausted when I get back. Should be able to keep reading but dunno how much I’ll really be taking in during that time.
I am looking forward to Bins’ readlist and LLD’s return. Patrick has a townread on T-Bone though I haven’t yet been able to digest his posts myself.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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This is a slog, but I'll post some reactions as I go through. Not reading too heavily first up, just getting a sense for events and will come back to deeper dive when I have the broad picture in place.
This is the first time that anyone who's expressed suspicion of Elena has made me halfway interested in listening to it.In post 1021, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:<quotes snipped by CDB>
Vote: Elena
I'm gonna put my vote on this cheeky scumfuck, and see what comes of it. The posting here reeks of over confidence and cheeky bullshit, and honestly probably comes from scum.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Explain like I'm five.
#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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If you were scum, and your teammates actually thought that my post was impossible to be faked by scum, then actually letting you say so in the thread is a terrible idea, because the correct thing for scum to say is "this is vaguely ATE-ish stuff that an experienced player like CDB would be able to fake". Given that I have had a quiet couple of days and was already kicking around a few people's "I dunno, could go for a wagon here" lists, confessing a team-mate's belief that I absolutely would not be able to make a certain post as scum would be really self-defeating.In post 1305, Mathdino wrote:Like let's be real
I really don't have to work too hard for your townread
Given that the last mentions of me in your iso are "strong town, don't wanna deal with possibility of scum rn" and "dinos progression on Bins is basically nonexistent and only happened because his teammate said something"
So how did my last post really reassure you that much lol
So yeah I'm good with the read.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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VOTE: LLD since the mod didn't notice the last time that I reminded him about my first-post vote that I never removed. Simultaneously despite and because of her ban from Team Mafia, I still think that this is the best place for my vote right now. This feels like the sort of game in which I'm going to need flips more than usual to get my bearings, especially when there's so much meta being thrown around between everyone to which I quite simply have no ability to make connections.*
*(i.e. lots of 'This is my town game', 'X from my team is certain this is Y town' or 'Z can't do this as town' that might well be true or not but really offers me no grounding whatsoever to vote for or against)#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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I’m not going to go on and on about this, out of concern for the health of the thread, but historically I have been unable to engage with her in a way that a) gets me a useful read and b) doesn’t make me incredibly stressed-out and angry. I’m not looking forward to this at all.In post 1346, Keychain wrote:Oh hi. Why?#greenshirtthursdays-
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Hey dawg, I empathise but also it seems like you don’tIn post 1665, Almost50 wrote:I seriously (and extremely respectfully) want to ask: Why do people sign to games they don't intend to play? And why do it in THE TOURNAMENT? Like, if I had something planned, or expected to be unavailable for 3+ days I would not have played in the tournament myself. I get "I'll be busy on weekends" or "I'm V/:A for the next 48 hours", but I don't get "I'll catch up later" followed by "I'm beat and not feeling like, later" then "I have other plans, so later"...
Obv may not necessarily be directed only at me but illness happens, y’know, and otherwise this has been quite a different kind of game to the Team Mafia that i got last time and assumed would be getting more of this time (and that’s largely on me, sure, but it was hardly ‘signing ip for a game i didn’t intend to play’.
This has been a difficult game for me to engage with and the timing of this illness has exacerbated that but I am fully aware of my reappnsibilities and stand by my sentiments that getting further stuck in will be easier with flips. I just can’t get excited about which ones happen atm#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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WHAT'S UP MOTHERFUCKERS
Thank you thank you thank you for lynching the LLD slot. Delicious, delicious scumflips!
I spent yesterday night reading ISOs (naturally, among those I had time for was determining that A50 was not a buddy) and I'm carrying on with them at the moment. Let's get some buddies!
Preliminary update: Bins is not a buddy.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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That's a remarkably lukewarm take from somebody who's played a non-trivial number of games with me (including the last Team Mafia game, to which I think a lot of parallels can be drawn).In post 2082, Bins wrote:(but Marquis mentioned to me that CBD having 0 presence is scummy).#greenshirtthursdays-
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Dunker, what was up with including LLD in this bracketed group here?In post 510, Dunkerdoodles wrote:me and my team all tr both lld and skirt
but i think there is a scum in (math, skirt, lld, a50)#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Seems like a super valuable opinion to have shared with the group then, thanks for that.In post 2091, Bins wrote:
It's the only thing Marquis has contributed aside from "Elena would pick scum."In post 2087, ChannelDelibird wrote:
That's a remarkably lukewarm take from somebody who's played a non-trivial number of games with me (including the last Team Mafia game, to which I think a lot of parallels can be drawn).In post 2082, Bins wrote:(but Marquis mentioned to me that CBD having 0 presence is scummy).
He isn't reading. He just asked me if you were posting a lot and I said "Not really" and he said "Could be coasting" or along that line.
Your relationship to LLD did not seem like buddying though, so I guess this was unhelpful rather than malicious. You maintained a much heavier level of paranoia about her than I would expect from a bus, and had doubts about the scumlean at times when I would have expected doubt to exist. So you're town.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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This isn't me saying 'my play has been too good for Marquis to have that read', it's that the premise of the read ('CDB being largely unmoored and not pushing too much in the thread is scum coasting') is flawed, and Marquis should know that. You're also framing it differently in this post ("in the realm of possibility") than you did when you first described it ("Marquis mentioned that CDB having 0 presence is scummy"), and I probably wouldn't have snarked about it if you had originally framed it in the former manner, because the former is a more nuanced way to be wrong (which he nonetheless is, but it's at least understandable). I'm not going to ask you to push it any further right now, but if my lynch becomes a serious possibility then you should probably ask Marquis to compare this game to Signs and Void.In post 2104, Bins wrote:Well, I haven't seen you do much other than vote park on LLD for one reason and I mentioned to Marquis and he still said it was in the realm of possibility. I guess I could ask him to ISO you but I'm really not interested in pushing it.#greenshirtthursdays-
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@All:I'm reading ISOs but I'm yet to have read in full the last segment of Day 1, which I will most certainly be doing once I've examined all the LLD angles individually but would someone mind please giving me the bullet points on what claims are apparently out there? The Mathdino stuff is news to me.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Re: said ISOs, I guess y'all were right about Keychain's meta, because I struggle to see that slot being an LLD buddy. It's possible, but for someone with only 40-odd posts it would be really weird for such a proportionally high amount of her posting being a very flat 'my team says kill this with fire' kinda vibe.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Ah, OK, cheers; the fast-paced nature of this daystart may have made me think I saw some prior context that apparently wasn't there.In post 2122, Radja wrote:as far as I know the only claim out there was A50's VT claim.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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That was the thing to which I was referring; I missed the part where it was new while I was busy Paint-ing Delibird onto a wrestler or something.In post 2126, Radja wrote:
well that and MathDino's claim at the start of this day obviouslyIn post 2123, ChannelDelibird wrote:
Ah, OK, cheers; the fast-paced nature of this daystart may have made me think I saw some prior context that apparently wasn't there.In post 2122, Radja wrote:as far as I know the only claim out there was A50's VT claim.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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In post 1931, chesskid3 wrote:fitz wagon feels lazy. Did we get a blanket no from mod on extension?
I thought Smocaine's reason for scumreading LLD was mildly townish but I really do not like this shrugging attitude from chesskid towards LLD-slot. It could be mitigated by his travel circumstances but there is an air of forced shruggishness that I'm not sure I see as how town!chesskid would handle a slot featuring a player like LLD.In post 1933, chesskid3 wrote:Also LLD getting force replaced is probably a towntell for her but I still haven't read the context for that.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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I would absolutely fucking love to hear about what made you agree with Fitz being scum given that, the only time you ever meaningfully mentioned LLD, you described her in ways that seemed like pretty comprehensively town.In post 1881, UC Voyager wrote:word from creature says havingfitz!scum as well as titus ad chesskid. I actually agree... VOTE: havingfitz titus can go tomorrow.
other than that#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Let me tell you why I'm dropping this:
VOTE: Bulbazak
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Bulbazak's stance on the LLD/fitz slot Day 1 was pretty weak. He almost doesn't comment on the slot at all early on but one infers him treating her as town due to citing her lines of investigation and asking Smocaine, someone he's publicly calling town as of that same post, to explain a vote on LLD. Meanwhile, many of his mentions of the slot involve him discrediting votes there.
- Pokes holes at a theory for LLD's scumplay that fits her actions.
- Asks fitz to explain his Bulbazak townread, which is a real lowball of a question at best.
- Repeatedly pursues this notion of waiting on a line of inquiry until they can both be online at the same time (which allows time, either in the build-up or during the eventual conversation, for whatever this is to be planned out in daytalk).
- This need to chat dissipates before it comes to fruition. Saves a forced interaction which would presumably be subject to higher scrutiny given that they were trying to set it up ahead of time.
- Undermines the Fitz/Titus choice in his responses to Dino here.
- Continues to object to the informational value of a Fitz lynch.
Compare Bulbazak's treatment of the LLD slot to how he describes the slot Today: "Given the AtE, LLD looked like scum who was not in control" and likely to be considered "a lost cause" by scumbuddies early on. That doesn't jive with his 'talk me into it' approach to the slot for much of Day 1.
Look at how much Bulbazak focused on Almost50, a read primarily driven by what Bulbazak saw as AtE. (Examples include this, this and this but are also just a fair chunk of Bulbazak's Day 1 proactivity.)
Now let's compare that behaviour to how Bulbazak responded to AtE from LLD. It's much more mealy-mouthed and noncommittal; just a matter of 'I'm doubting my townread now', which would certainly jive with his stated position Today that LLD's scumbuddies would feel that she were very vulnerable. By his own words, we know that scum!Bulbazak would feel obliged to suspect LLD after that behaviour - but of course it's never as easy as just throwing a player like LLD to the wolves, especially when you've already been townreading her early on. She's an advantage, even under suspicion, that scum wouldn't want to freely give up. So you end up with this fence-sitting and subtle shooting down of the wagon without ever being seen as too much against it.
It also seems like mastina should be well aware of the likelihood that LLD would pick scum, and again that is addressed in the most fence-sitting way possible here.
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tl;dr- Bulbazak looks like a buddy who didn't know how to treat the LLD slot once she made what he now says were disastrous, would-be-jettisoned-by-scumbuddies mistakes so instead did a lot of hemming and hawwing and objecting until finally feeling forced to lynch fitz.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Why the hard townread on Bulbazak?In post 2441, Bins wrote:I am defending Bulba. I have been very transparent on the fact he isn't going to be the lynch today.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Which posts and whyIn post 2487, Bins wrote:@CDB - When I have so many scumreads, I don’t have room to doubt my townreads. There are posts Bulba made that I don’t see coming from scum.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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#lifefindsawaytogetintheway
Radja is town (mostly because Reck is town) and I don’t think we should be allowed to do (or pretend to do) the above kind of thing.
My take on the Titus case is that I am tempted by it, but as previously mentioned am essentially unable to divine intent from anything that Titus does. I haven’t been able to fully check out rebuttals to Bulbazak but I admittedly just want to test the theory at this point.
It is going to be another busy few days but I owe this game my next couple of lunches at work in between all of the goings-on. I’m determined to stay afloat here but do appreciate that this is even more frustrating for y’all than it is for me.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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I read Keychain’s and Bulba’s responses to my vote and I happily stand corrected on how some of those arguments don’t stand up as well as I thought that they did. I am still a little bugged by how Bulba characterises LLD’s play Today compared to Yesterday, but I am sufficiently compelled by the strength of the rest of the rebuttal to let this one go.
UNVOTE: Bulbazak
As previously mentioned, I am fully uninterested in votes for Radja. Just going over the last handful of pages to get a better sense of where my vote will go next. I liked Bulba’s argument mid-rebuttal about Elena as a more likely LLD partner and that will be a consideration for sure.#greenshirtthursdays-
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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