TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[Jingle]

Eh. We need to pick 2 town in five names. We have a 60% chance of winning via rng right now.

[Jingle]

I can link ofhrz explanation if you want, btw.

[Chemist1422]

Eh. We need to pick 2 town in five names. We have a 60% chance of winning via rng right now.

question

who are the two not in that 5

hito/klick?

[Shadoweh]

I can link ofhrz explanation if you want, btw.

No? I'm not asking you

[hitogoroshi]

Kerset commuting as last scum is another potential reason for the missing N2 kill.

Why on earth does Kerset choose that night to do it, though? Unless I'm missing something, there was no reason to suspect that N2 would be watched in a way following nights wouldn't be. I've been operating under the theory that Kerset scum exactly means ninja/ascetic and he shot Alisae or mastina N2. Do you really think Kerset has a role that makes him unable to shoot, and that he used it N2 knowing he was punting on a kill?

FTR I am also salty because you lynched bitmap and didn't listen to me, and hearing 'scum shadoweh had lots of reasons' instead of hito acknowledging my reasoning for clearing him is annoying.

I mean, it's not denying that town-Shadoweh would have a valid reason to defend Bitmap to say that scum-Shadoweh also had an incentive to defend Bitmap. So I was just noting that Bitmap defense doesn't move the needle for me in either direction, but the fact that you proposed no-lynch instead of an alt-lynch does because that's an actually costly signal for scum to send.

If its not Jingle then I'm terribly concerned for how this is going to go tbh.

I thought you were kinda clearing Jingle circa 2364:

Rolecop is a pretty shitty role on its own though. It makes thematic sense for the scumteam to be roleblocker + roleblock/doc immune + track immune/possibly a rolecop? Just glancing at the claims even if one is fake we all agree town seems hella stacked for the last dude to have effectively no role to speak of, right?

I guess, where do you sit right now on the power balance spectrum? If Jingle is scum and all of this town power is legit, what kinda role from him makes it work in your eyes?

[Shadoweh]

That post has nothing to do with Jingle? I can't rule him out and none of the roles clear him. I just said what role I think the last scum has, please don't ask me questions answered in the post you quoted from. I have to reconfer with Dunn since my suspicion was confirmed clear today. He didn't think Jingle was scum either though. TBH if it's Kerset I'm going to be upset because I hate being wrong and I've been arguing that the Day 1 wagon makes them unlikely while Dunn said if they're both scum it doesn't matter and Mena did nothing but vote Gamma's slot literally the entire day, so scum was bussing from the start.

[Kerset]

1 Shot Strongman
2 Shot Roleblocker
Multitasking Ninja Rolecop

JOAT (FN/Commute/Visit)
JOAT (Track/Watch/Follow)
N2 Vig
2 Shot Doc
2 Shot Alien
Loyal Neighborizor
3 Shot Inventor (Loved/BP/Hated)
3x VT

To clarify, this is your proposed Setup, Kers?

Why did you target jj D1? Why did you commute N2?

No, it is not my proposed setup. It is a setup proposed by my teammate as you asked for it.

I said already my reason in 2287. As for commute i didn't really have any better option. I had to use either this or delay it by using visit. People really didn't like me and i thought that jjh death will make it even worse for me, so at least i didn't want to die from vig shot. Use of commute on n1 was also out of question, because i wanted to clear myself with fn as soon as possible.

[Kerset]

FTR I am also salty because you lynched bitmap and didn't listen to me, and hearing 'scum shadoweh had lots of reasons' instead of hito acknowledging my reasoning for clearing him is annoying. (please actually talk to Kittymo since we can't really talk about crossgame in the thread) If its not Jingle then I'm terribly concerned for how this is going to go tbh.

You don't have high ground here. I asked you for scumreads yesterday and you didn't give us anything. You only suggested no-lynch. With that i am sure mastina would be still dead and we would have unsolved bitmap around.

[Klick]

So I'm not going to pretend to have much understanding of the setup/ability to get reads out of it. My instinct is that Kerset/Chem's PRs make little sense as town together, and also that Kerset's abilities in isolation all look super scummy. But I don't put much weight into that personally.

Right now Klick/hito/Chem is my townpool, and I'm looking for one more.

[Shadoweh]

If you'd just accepted that he was town it wouldn't matter that he was unsolved :thonk: He'd probably have wanted to lynch you though so I can understand why his presence would have been annoying for you. I'm not that good at scumreads tbh, it was more important for me to try and push what I was quite sure of since if we hadn't done that we could just lynch all the unknowns and still lock this game. (I was hinting p heavily that I was suspicious of Klick though, I just didn't want to start a fight about it)

I don't care about high ground anyways. I just want my posts to be read and my reasoning to be understood instead of handwaved as 'could be both'. I can't even properly make my case because of the way Team Mafia works which is extra frustrating.

[Klick]

(I was hinting p heavily that I was suspicious of Klick though, I just didn't want to start a fight about it)

See if you were town I think you actually would have brought it up and tried sorting me instead of hoping I could be mislynched today

[Shadoweh]

Dunn thought it was better to let the roles sort themselves out. Also that if your role was real trying to vote you out was throwing the game for town. I have to admit I personally would never say the words no-lynch and viable strategy in the same sentence. I'm still in disbelief that with all the weird roles, vanilla Doctor actually existed.

[Jingle]

Use of commute on n1 was also out of question, because i wanted to clear myself with fn as soon as possible.

This is my issue with it, btw, not that jjh wasn’t a townread of yours. Surely you’re aware that clears get stronger the later they come.

Similarly, did jj strike you as the kind of player who would be likely to be alive at endgame if town? If so, why?

Why did you commute the night after a town pr outed? Did you think you were a valuable scumkill? If you were a high priority investigation, why not try to telegraph that you were uninvestigatable? Why were you concerned about specifically vigs when at the time there was no sign of a vig afaict?

[Kerset]

I was second person to be lynched on day 1. I didn't know that mastina will catch a scum and this is going to be topic of this day. The most likely scenario for me was that i will be wagoned like in day 1.
If you are almost lynched on day 1 and have a tool to prove that you are innocent, then you obviously use it. Otherwise i would be placed on L-1 on day 2 and forced to claim. Would people believe me that I had FN and used visit instead???
As long as jjh would reveal that I used FN on him, he didn't need to live. I wanted him to reveal it, so I can bait kill with my commute.
What would you do with my role? Use FN after commute to make late and more legit?

[Kerset]

Moving on, why was I the most likely to be investigated? For me people the most likely to be checked are those which:
1. Are not high TR
2 are not most likely to be lynched
You don't bother checking lynch target, because if they are scum they are lynched anyway. Especially in role madness, where clears are not 100% sure.
Your whole analysis is based on reading this game backwards.

[Jingle]

You said you were likely to be vigged, which overlaps entirely with the investigation pool.

Assuming instead that vig is likely, why try to stop the vig on yourself when it doesn’t actually make you more believable as town?

And yes, I’m going back with new information to try to understand your thought process, because that’s the only way to judge your actions at this point.

[Chemist1422]

question for you jingle

why does the majority of your ISO from today seem to be mech reads?

[Jingle]

They aren’t?

I’d suggest reisoing if you think that’s the case.

If you still have that problem, I can probably quote all of today’s subjective reads posts, but that’s a pain in the ass and I’m semi vla

[Kerset]

You said you were likely to be vigged, which overlaps entirely with the investigation pool.

Assuming instead that vig is likely, why try to stop the vig on yourself when it doesn’t actually make you more believable as town?

And yes, I’m going back with new information to try to understand your thought process, because that’s the only way to judge your actions at this point.

SR are those you shoot, middle reads are those you check. Keep trying harder.
Day 2 lasted barely a single real-life hour. Do you really think that i can plan everything in such fast-paced changing environment? When day started my plan was that i am going to be IC and this day will last more then 48 hours. The thing is that you don't even care or consider it. You are trying to point at any faulty you can because you saw that hito placed you in kill list with me. You hope that constant shade on me will let you survive longer.

[Chemist1422]

They aren’t?

I’d suggest reisoing if you think that’s the case.

If you still have that problem, I can probably quote all of today’s subjective reads posts, but that’s a pain in the ass and I’m semi vla

I'm not accusing you of anything, just asking you a question

also I'm not counting questions about decisions behind actions

[Jingle]

Huh, I thought my reasons to townread post was today. I guess if you don’t think asking about motivations isn’t mechanical then yeah, I’ve been playing mechanically since massclaim, chem.

@Kers: my plan as scum is to ask about motivations of a player who hito already wants to kill before me to live longer? Do you wanna explain that?

Also, what does your intentions being different coming into d2 have to do with your motivations n2? I want to know what you were thinking after both the jj and mena flips. If anything, I’d assume you’d have more recollection of your thoughts when your expectations were smashed.

[hitogoroshi]

That post has nothing to do with Jingle?

The connection to Jingle is just me trying to feel out how stacked you feel the third scum role needs to be for every town PR to be telling the truth. People seem to be settling on different ends of the spectrum and it's pretty relevant for sorting the VT slots, so I sort of want a townie gestalt on where we sit re: "I can imagine a scum big enough that all PRs are town" vs "I think it's extremely likely one of the town PRs is lying".

So I'm not going to pretend to have much understanding of the setup/ability to get reads out of it. My instinct is that Kerset/Chem's PRs make little sense as town together, and also that Kerset's abilities in isolation all look super scummy. But I don't put much weight into that personally.

What do you think about Kerset's reundo hop? To me, it seems like a significantly less plausible bus than ofrhz's. Ofr clearly used it as a place to sit. But Kerset had his biggest surge as a

reaction

to my Bitmap wagon, arguing that reundo was the one getting away. Reading the 1913 to 1916 sequence just makes it hard for me to think bus.

[ofrhz]

VT claims came after all PR claims and after alisae validated VT existence (locking them out of options to claim without overlapping).

That's not true btw, I claimed before Jingle/Klick/Bitmap. Jingle also claimed before Klick and Bitmap.

I would like to hear from ofrhz why she vigged Alisae in the first place? Ali did not seem like a suspicious slot after e pushed for the Renudo lynch so hard and looking through your iso you didn't seem to think Alisae was very scummy, so its a question that's been bothering me.

I thought about e’s push on reundo but two things made me think e was scum in spite of that:
- e jumped off reundo for the bitmap wagon
- and voted Reundo because e thought reundo was going to flip town which didn’t really make sense to me

The most important factor was probably because I felt strongly about the bitmap slot being town after the d2 flip and nsg was scumreading e for like the same reasons that had me put alisae low on my tier list to begin with.

[ofrhz]

I think jingle / me next two days

And then if the game isn’t over, then whoever is still alive can have fun figuring it out.

I don’t think Kerset is scum. His thoughts seem internally consistent even if it’s not what I would necessarily do in his situation. Something that Volpe noted a while back was that his day 1 play was strongly going against the tide in the thread in defending bitmap and pushing jjh / Mastina, and that’s pretty town indicative especially for a relatively new player. This is also a severe contrast with his scum play which was comparatively timid and direction less.

Shadoweh isn’t like omg so town but I vibe with her posts. Like there isn’t much else to say except that I’ve had similar thoughts with her

Hito could be scum playing 4d chess in shooting mastina while knowing she’s bulletproof or something, but like I feel like that’s a conversation to have only if jingle were to flip town

That begs the question of how does this setup balance. The setup is a townsided with all of these PRs, but perhaps not as much as I initially thought. Because everybody was x-shot, we’re basically just playing mountainous fun from here on out. There was also good potential for town roles to fuck with each other.

[ofrhz]

Kerset, to be clear, you were compulsive JOAT, yes?