TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[Augustus Caesar]

You know, Deas, even though I actually scumread Ari now, I'm tempted to agree with you simply because I feel the same way about Creature that I did with Sirius; if he is town, we'll never be able to confidently townread him. I guess that's what happens when you don't ever bother to explain the underlying reasoning or thought processes behind your reads/takes. I realise it's why I'm so bad at reading Creature - because he NEVER actually explains the reasons behind what he believes in, and I'm all about reading into reasons and trying to determine whether they make sense and are genuine.

If I go Creature over Ari, it's because I'm confident enough in my GOLDEN FRIEND TOWNBLOC OF JUSTICE all being town, that is [Ydrasse, The Bulge, Puff, xofelf, Deas] of course. Meaning it's exactly one of Ari and Reck because I don't think Reck busses like that after a scum buddy goes down day 1, and I don't think Ari's reaction to Reck is SvS indicative - of these two I am heavily leaning Ari. But by PoE, the other scum is just Creature if I trust my townreads. Wait, so it comes down to trusting in my own ability to townread 5 people versus my ability in scumreading one person. hm. hm. HM.

I should look over Reck and Creature more...

[Augustus Caesar]

Backrooms Mafia:

Ari is at odds with DkKoba for a large part of it. Dk slowly winds Ari down with a push, frustrating him over the course of the game until Ari FINALLY lashes out here and the following - posts - also this.

I found that extremely towny while playing that game, Ari. You were my top townread iirc. Here, I see you got from 0 to 100 (for your standards) reacting to Ydrasse in this post. There's no prior buildup or reason to be upset at Ydrasse, you were just that annoyed at her vote. From my experience with you, it takes a lot more for you to finally snap at a player. Dk was being really annoying and you reacted in a jovial manner for a long, long time until you finally go off on them.

I think you're faking it this game.

[Augustus Caesar]

ariiiiiiii please god come post Soon AHHHHH

how do you feel about the bulge now? because uh, i'm looking back over that case and it feels even worse in retrospect, 1726 and 1729, and i know i already asked you about these but i can't get over how you like... presented them?

it feels like you really had decided from the start that you were just going to scumread bulge, like. there's nothing in there at all that suggests i guess that you made a natural effort to read him accepting the fact that he might be town. and then like... is it really just the claim that made you think that he's that towny in your most recent reads list? even despite the fact that it might be a fakeclaim given scum know the roles of the setup?

like, i guess i just want to understand... is it really just that that made you roll over on it? this is a setup where mafia are inherently going to have (or should ...) better fakeclaims i think so like... was there no paranoia there at all? what went through your head when you saw what bulge claimed?

Yeah, that whole Bulge progression is another thing that's really weird about Ari. I don't see the scum-

motivation

behind hard tunnelling and casing a slot that's on L-1, but the reasons there are really bad faithy. I also agree that he's too accepting of the claim and The Bulge being town after how confbiased he seemed on him being scum earlier.

[Augustus Caesar]

I do keep having paranoia about Ari not even trying angry AtE as scum before, but... this is Team Mafia and if you're gonna make an exception, it's for this game. Especially since he has Jangle on his team and I think Jongle might know Ari better than anyone else on this site (or was that Something_Smart?), so could easily be recommending using some of it to fool the poor meta-farmers like I.

(I think I've gone through all of his scumgames CTR-Fing 'fuck' and 'shit'. Do not question my methods.)

[Augustus Caesar]

beeboy, i can already tell you're scum

VOTE: beeboy

Never realized beeboy posted at all

Tempted to believe you here

Hmm, why was Creature tempted to believe me? I only thought that because I'm aware of beeboy's scummeta. I don't think Creature is.

Oh no i didn't realize the game started.
Hello friends.

After clash tonight I'll read up. <3

This post isn't really incriminating without knowing his meta.

beeboy is probably someone I wouldn't bother with rn. So the only significant viable scumread I have is Reckoner. Though, Ydrasse and Bulge also should be looked at.

Says we shouldn't bother with beeboy here.

Sirius9121 (0)

Augautus Caesar (0)
Aristophanes (0)
Datisi (0)

Summer Nights (0)

Creature (0)

xofelf (0)
DeasVail (0)

The Bulge (0)

Adorable (0)
petapan (0)

xRECKONERx (0)

beeboy (0)

Doesn't have beeboy coloured in in this readslist.

If I go fullgut, the scumteam should be three between Summer Nights, The Bulge, xRECKONERx and beeboy.

beeboy is now in his scumpool? beeboy hasn't posted since his comments about nothing bothering with him or his readlist. how can he have a gut feeling beeboy is scum based on nothing?

408: Oh, beeboy is now coloured in red. This is still before beeboy's second post though which Creature comments on here:

Is anyone here is there something I should know before I read back?

Feels like somethijg frozenscum!me would say

I'll just be pretty annoyed if beeboy happens to be town and we wasted an entire dayphase

feels like something scum are less likely to say about their buddy tbh

VOTE: RCEnigma

I’m fine if people want to wait and see more, but I think I’ve seen enough to be comfortable with an elimination here

Me too, but I don't want to end up being pressured all day tomorrow and feel unable to scumhunt due to that wagon

VOTE: RCEnigma

I’m fine if people want to wait and see more, but I think I’ve seen enough to be comfortable with an elimination here

Me too, but I don't want to end up being pressured all day tomorrow and feel unable to scumhunt due to that wagon

Why are you expecting a wagon on you? I don't think there are many, if any, votes on you now.

I mean, RCE probably drops dead today, but tomorrow I may be at risk.

Creature only thinks he's at risk if RCE flips scum, right? that's what he's saying here?

[Augustus Caesar]

oops, meant to hit preview

[Augustus Caesar]

Should we ever do Aristophanes?

This post is so weird considering he's never expressed interest or a scumread on Ari outside of this, he actually townreads him earlier

I was looking through VCs and he never votes for Ari either, he's always on the counterwagon whatever it is

Nobody is interested in my Ari push

I won't oppose anymore. If you vote there I'll consider joining just to see what happens.

hum de dum

[Augustus Caesar]

lol what, Reck hasn't been scum in 4 years

[Creature]

lol what, Reck hasn't been scum in 4 years

Easy when you haven't played in 4 years

[Creature]

I don't understand why you all can so confidently townread xofelf. DGB has been pointing out a lot of their posts and showing how each part is just filler.

[Creature]

The only defense I saw on xofelf was "they responded to pressure with reads" and some variant of too scummy to be scum.

The first must also assume Adorable must be town because she also responded to pressure with reads. And tbh who didn't ever respond with reads? I think I only don't remember DeasVail posting reads to pressure.

The latter has always been "scum!xofelf would be doing more things", which is pretty fallacious. Scum doesn't have to be some Light Yagami deep mind thinker planning every one of their post to follow a scum goal. Sometimes scum can just be running in circles not knowing what to do.

[Adorable]

I'm also suspicious of xofelf. They haven't been interacting much with the players and because of this it looks like coasting to me. xofelf was also evasive towards me on day 2 and xofelf saying Ydrasse and Adorable are a team was really bad.

[DeasVail]

Ah, let's get settled in to another day of Hectic mostly talking to Augustus Caesar. I'm looking forward to it.

Hey, Deas, Bulge:

Okay I know that eliminating me at this point seems like a foregone conclusion for some but I will prove myself as town somehow in the coming days. I don’t know how that’ll be but I want to be a slot that is widely townread and an easy exclusion from poe. Not whatever this is.

we're solving this game today people, we're in a fantastic position for it. keep an eye out for thread momentum crashers. I need to read read read this weekend but I'm gonna try to be here as often as I can promoting workflow but at this pace apathy will be our undoing almost certainly

The purpose of me bringing up these quotes isn't to shade, but to remind you of that earlier WIM and PROMISE you two believed in. We can solve this today, let's just put the work in.

This post is completely fair. And I will do my best to do a big dive tonight. The fact that I haven't done it yet is totally life getting in the way and NAI.

It would take A LOT for me to read xofelf as scum here. I had a moment of reconsideration there when I voted them but that reconsideration has pointed me strongly to xofelf being town.

And Hectic, I was having a similar thought last night that if we trust in our collective townreads then this game is solved. Of course, there is always going to be paranoia there, but I would be pretty confident in all of xofelf, bulge, adorable being town. And I'm happy to consider Ydrasse town as well while you strongly townread her.

[Hectic]

I have a few reasons, but my strongest reason to think xofelf isn't scum is just the way they interacted with RCE. Firstly, the long interaction they had, secondly, RCE choosing xofelf as one of his first slots to ISO-dive, thirdly, this post - what scum partner says this:

RCE's entrance is actually really decent one. It sucks that he's replacing into a slot that is just so empty, and a game that is so lethargic. But also, guys, we have 3 days and there is a single wagon, the fuck are we doing? We all need to step it up.

-when

this

, is the VC:

Votecount 1.9

• Sirius9121
  (0) -
  
• Augustus
  Caesar
  (1) - Creature
  
• Aristophanes
  (0) -
  
• Datisi
  (0) -
  
• Summer
  Nights
  (0) -
  
• Creature
  (0) -
  
• xofelf
  (0) -
  
• DeasVail
  (0) -
  
• The
  Bulge
  (2) - Datisi, petapan
  
• Adorable
  (0) -
  
• petapan
  (1)- The Bulge
  
• xRECKONERx
  (0)
  
• RCEnigma
  (5) - Augustus Caesar, Summer Nights, Adorable, xRECKONERx, DeasVail,

Not Voting (4) : xofelf, Sirius9121, RCEnigma, Aristophanes
Deadline: (expired on 2021-01-29 21:00:00)
With thirteen alive, it takes seven votes to eliminate and seven votes to skip the day's elimination.

xofelf isn't trying to push any counterwagons - they're not even voting themselves. The number one priority on scum's mind at the time of this VC is gonna be on how they'll look in the event RCE flips scum (which is looking very likely at this point). If scum!xofelf defends RCE, there needs to be a damn good reason for it, some way to get RCE out of this perhaps, maybe change people's minds, or push an aletertive wagon. xofelf does not try and change people's minds with reasoning, neither do they try and push an alterative. This just reads like ignorant town to me.

[Augustus Caesar]

I have a few reasons, but my strongest reason to think xofelf isn't scum is just the way they interacted with RCE. Firstly, the long interaction they had, secondly, RCE choosing xofelf as one of his first slots to ISO-dive, thirdly, this post - what scum partner says this:

RCE's entrance is actually really decent one. It sucks that he's replacing into a slot that is just so empty, and a game that is so lethargic. But also, guys, we have 3 days and there is a single wagon, the fuck are we doing? We all need to step it up.

-when

this

, is the VC:

Votecount 1.9

• Sirius9121
  (0) -
  
• Augustus
  Caesar
  (1) - Creature
  
• Aristophanes
  (0) -
  
• Datisi
  (0) -
  
• Summer
  Nights
  (0) -
  
• Creature
  (0) -
  
• xofelf
  (0) -
  
• DeasVail
  (0) -
  
• The
  Bulge
  (2) - Datisi, petapan
  
• Adorable
  (0) -
  
• petapan
  (1)- The Bulge
  
• xRECKONERx
  (0)
  
• RCEnigma
  (5) - Augustus Caesar, Summer Nights, Adorable, xRECKONERx, DeasVail,

Not Voting (4) : xofelf, Sirius9121, RCEnigma, Aristophanes
Deadline: (expired on 2021-01-29 21:00:00)
With thirteen alive, it takes seven votes to eliminate and seven votes to skip the day's elimination.

xofelf isn't trying to push any counterwagons - they're not even voting themselves. The number one priority on scum's mind at the time of this VC is gonna be on how they'll look in the event RCE flips scum (which is looking very likely at this point). If scum!xofelf defends RCE, there needs to be a damn good reason for it, some way to get RCE out of this perhaps, maybe change people's minds, or push an aletertive wagon. xofelf does not try and change people's minds with reasoning, neither do they try and push an alterative. This just reads like ignorant town to me.

just give me the 2 week ban now, Isis

[Augustus Caesar]

This post is completely fair. And I will do my best to do a big dive tonight. The fact that I haven't done it yet is totally life getting in the way and NAI.

It would take A LOT for me to read xofelf as scum here. I had a moment of reconsideration there when I voted them but that reconsideration has pointed me strongly to xofelf being town.

And Hectic, I was having a similar thought last night that if we trust in our collective townreads then this game is solved. Of course, there is always going to be paranoia there, but I would be pretty confident in all of xofelf, bulge, adorable being town. And I'm happy to consider Ydrasse town as well while you strongly townread her.

Yeah, that's my current thinking. It depends in the manner Ari comes back with his team's reads

Life takes no1 priority ofc, but I'm looking forward to your return!

[Aristophanes]

K I'm doing the writeups now sorry guys.

I saw this tho so Imma help Hoctac out:

lol what, Reck hasn't been scum in 4 years

He was scum in MafiaSunny

[xRECKONERx]

lol what, Reck hasn't been scum in 4 years

I was scum like last year with UT in Legends of the Hidden Temple 3

[xRECKONERx]

K I'm doing the writeups now sorry guys.

I saw this tho so Imma help Hoctac out:

lol what, Reck hasn't been scum in 4 years

He was scum in MafiaSunny

lol holy shit I already forgot about this

God I got robbed by luckshit night actions

[xRECKONERx]

So I read hectic's dive on Ari. I'm not entirely sure what the hell to make of it??? It's stream of consciousness style back and forth. Some Ari posts are town. Some are scummy. I'm not entirely sure what commentary you're expecting back from me Hectic.

I agree w/ some of it. I disagree with others (like why is Ari pointing you to a recent scumgame somehow town indicative instead of NAI). Or why the "LEGENDARY" Ari post makes him town because you're literally just falling for "too scummy to be scum" there.

I think your read on Ari, to me, FEELS a lot more even-keeled so I was kinda surprised to see you vote him midway through? It felt more neutral in reading but maybe it's because I get angry at any mention of him being town lol

But in any case, I don't really know how to respond to that dive other than to like, clap and applaud that I'm finally being listened to and we might kill Ari today

[Augustus Caesar]

The town points were minor compared to the scummy stuff I found. I'll summarise why I think he's scum for you, Reck:

-Felt like he was faking analysis, for example, why he was talking about Datisi/peta having partnery stuff based on 4th vote rvs memes
-His reaction to Ydrasse when she voted him felt over the top and out of character for him
-The times he speaks about the beeboy slot sounds partnery

<- this is the biggest reason by far

-Him wanting to back out of a 1v1 with you apparently, but that clearly not being his true intention in that post

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, and:

-Bad faith scumcase on The Bulge

[Augustus Caesar]

I think your read on Ari, to me, FEELS a lot more even-keeled so I was kinda surprised to see you vote him midway through? It felt more neutral in reading but maybe it's because I get angry at any mention of him being town lol

Not at all lol
Pretty sure like 80% of my comments were on stuff I found scummy

[xRECKONERx]

The town points were minor compared to the scummy stuff I found. I'll summarise why I think he's scum for you, Reck:

-Felt like he was faking analysis, for example, why he was talking about Datisi/peta having partnery stuff based on 4th vote rvs memes
-His reaction to Ydrasse when she voted him felt over the top and out of character for him
-The times he speaks about the beeboy slot sounds partnery

<- this is the biggest reason by far

-Him wanting to back out of a 1v1 with you apparently, but that clearly not being his true intention in that post

I mean hey, you don't have to convince me here. I've wanted Ari dead for *checks notes* the entire game now

[Aristophanes]

Jingle's Setup Spec

Starting off, Jingle had some setup spec for me. Basically it boils down to the scum knowing the setup being op at neutering town, especially the masons, and lets them craft exactly the right fakeclaim for any situation and have it ready from even pregame. Beeboy-slot having that role let him do nothing since his job was complete. It probably also means a mostly vanilla scumteam otherwise, which flips and Isis mod-meta support. It also means setup spec is probably useless and the mechanic might be unbalanced but who is to say.

Treating Bulge as conftown and as just a Doc which I guess makes sense. Then there's some setup spec I can present but meh and a note that we should massclaim the day prior to XLo because of scum knowing the setup and being prepared for it.

DV is locktown for Jingle and he notes that scum probably bussed beeboy-slot because of the aforementioned fulfillment of their duty. I'll mention that the theory that scum bussed beeboy should probably clear me as well as DV or at least be a hard town point but I mean, of course Jingle will say that so take it as you will.

Jingle's current gamestate commentary

I mean, it's stagnant, as we all know, and it swings hard from 1 vote to E-1. Apparently that happened on me within 4 hours, I wasn't counting, but yeah.

Bulge and Reck get townpoints for their way of presenting cases.
Hectic's Isodive/case on me comes at what I gather he thinks is opportunistic timing and is on well, the designated Lim. He also dislikes the total 180 from a townread to a scumread on me.

That all said, Jingle actually agrees that I'm probably the best Lim for the gamestate as it frees up Reck to pursue other things and to clear my name and interactions here.

Also Hectic pushing a solve based on the locktown reads of his townreads is really bad and doesn't give much room for error. a single town in the wrong bin, or a town defending someone in the wrong bin, is game over in this case. And it's highly suspected that this is the case, especially with myself heavily scum in that solve and not actually scum here.

Ending this section with strong townreads on Bulge, DV, and Reck in that order.

Jingle Isodives

Bulge: C'mon man, you didn't protect Datisi after finding him town?
There is probably a scum within the flashwagon on Bulge
2220 & 2221 are solid posts.

Reck: Willing to throw his weight around. Probably didn't bus beeboy based on cred and interactions.
Bloodlusting for me seems fine to Jingle as well. Mostly because this isn't the crux of everything for him within the game and thus not the hyperfocus thing I was worried about. It's different and I guess I see why.
Reck is making content and 988, 993, 996, 1002 seem like a good progression.

DV: Town based off of RCE interactions and optics therearound.

Ydrasse: Very different from Hectic vs FL. Trying to solve while distant here, but in that game they were distant without the same solving.
This is just a really light townlean though.

Creature: Nullscum that is doing nothing but bask in the staleness of the game.

Adorable: ???
Apparently this posting is beyond Jingle's ability to parse

xofelf: This ISO is top tier for xof and like, admittedly there's a team behind them but also it's an easy townread.

This is followed by discussion from Dann and Jingle about Ydrasse from the aforementioned game and how Dann is scumreading Ydrasse here, which I'll get to.
He wrote a shit tonne so Imma see what I can do here.

Dannflor's preamble

Apparently he's not read the game much previous to this simply because it's just not the one he's focused on, but being dead now has more time. Something about being in Masters in TFT as well, whatever that means, which was what he was working on instead of reading here lol

It's mostly been read in bits here and there but he'd probably got a good handle on things anyway.

Ah, the Ydrasse read

He gets the townreads from Jingle and Hectic but disagrees. The ability to look solvy if scum is possibly because its team mafia and there is easy help at hand. Also it's a different dynamic from a VS game and that means she can't rely on the same style she used there, so more is needed and thus the posts and moments that look solvy emerge. Generally the solvy posts feel put on and the posting resembles Dann's own posts when scum. 2267 and the posts around the potential pocketing by Hectic of Ydrasse feel like, really faked worry to him and I can totally see it. He's basically thinking these posts are crafted to get a reciprocal townread out of Hectic as scum. He also notes a performative nature from 1413 and 1414 and makes another comparison with his own posting in Hectic vs Flavour Leaf. 1414 in particular, with the treatment of my slot, pings him as coming from scum.

On Hectic

Dann disagrees with Jingle here and thinks Hectic is town, Ydrasse scum, which is an opposite read from one another. In fact, I haven't mentioned it yet but Jingle might case Hectic at some point. I mean, I haven't yet, but maybe my team will pick up my slack, right? lol

Anyway, compared to Your Nightmare Dann thinks this is outside of Hectic's scum range.

In particular, Dann really likes that Hectic is both solving, or trying to, when basically talking to himself in the thread with no outside stimulus, and that Hectic has these little windows of depth and genuine thought process that show up time and time again in the posts this game and not in the scumgame. Things he thinks would be really hard to fake consistently. 2227 and 2231 are the presented examples. Also 2177 he thinks is too out there to be scum.

Also using the Nightmare game as a baseline Dann thinks I'm the same town!Ari here as I was there and Hectic

should

see that, but not seeing ti isn't really a scummy thing here.

Reck Read

Man, you know that feeling when your team thinks the main person scumreading you, the one who has been all game, is totally reasonable in doing so? Well yeah.
Dann totally gets where Reck is coming from and thinks a lot of the scumread is probably playstyle difference and/or a difference in expectations from players. As in I break the mould of what Reck expects and therefore am a scumread here. Reck's push is consistent, reasonable, it doesn't feel like a performance, it's basically like, a genuine push and therefore towny. It's just on a town slot.

Misc and Readslists

721 is probably all town as Hectic suspects.
RCE/Adorable would make the most sense via RCE associatives.
Also Adorable having chats with her team are possible from either alignment and like, it makes sense as scum here, especially in TM and shouldn't really be townpoints for the slot.

Dann:
Townreads - Bulge, Hectic, Reck, DV, xof
Scumreads - Ydrasse, Adorable
Scum within them and Creature (who is null).

Jingle:
Townreads - Bulge, DV, Reck, xof
Townleans - Ydrasse
Scumreads - Creature
No read on Adorable as they are incomprehensible

Dann's Closing statements

@Hectic: Your solve is exactly 2 of {Reck, Creature, Ari}
You are wrong on Ari and probably wrong on Reck.
Reconsider this shit.

You're leading the town and you're a good player, so scum are going to be playing with that in mind. Be more critical plz.

Like Dann knows I'm probably cooked today, but that doesn't mean you get to autopilot for the next 2 Elims.

Definite slots to reconsider after we townflip here: Adorable, Ydrasse.
Recommended reconsiderations in order to round things out and make sure you're not pocketed: xof, DV.

Sorry that took so long.
I need a fucking nap.