TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

Jingle · Post Post #986 (isolation #200) » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:06 am

In post 982, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: No, I think you're more annoyed that a Porkens lim - which you seem opposed to to some degree - seems to be a foregone conclusion

Do you think the procession of “u mad bro” is a legitimate town attempt to address any of what I’ve said in the last ~4 hours?

Jingle · Post Post #989 (isolation #201) » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:10 am

In post 987, petapan wrote:
In post 985, Jingle wrote:
In post 983, petapan wrote: jingle what alignment is porkens going to flip
I expect town, though would be happy with a scumflip.
then i have zero credibility to push you tomorrow so why are you so fucking flustered at the suggestion i think you could be scum with porkens

First of all, very clearly not flustered, regardless of your attempts at argument by repetition.

Second of all, I’m trying to convince people you’re scum, because you’re openwolfing.

Jingle · Post Post #990 (isolation #202) » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:11 am

In post 988, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: fwiw what peta said makes sense to me... a less brazen scum player would probably bus Porken in this situation while someone like you would conceivably not because you can talk your way out of it

That’s explicitly not the narrative though. The narrative is that I’m incompetent.

Jingle · Post Post #995 (isolation #203) » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:16 am

You’re openwolfing because you’re dodging interaction in favor of repeating that I’m mad ad nauseam when it’s evident that I’m not. If I was mad, I wouldn’t be devoting time to, you know, interacting with and trying to convince people of my pov, rationally. And anyone who is actually interested in analyzing the game can see that easily.

Jingle · Post Post #996 (isolation #204) » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:17 am

In post 994, petapan wrote:
In post 993, Adorable wrote: Why is Jingle getting voted?
wgeurts is OMGUSing mostly

It’s pretty funny, yeah.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:24 am

Mostly game state. I think porkens is town because there isn’t another option for the lim today. I don’t think this strongly but peta’s attempt at positioning is definitely reinforcing the read.

Despite all that, porkens genuinely is the best lim option today because resolving the slot is going to be very valuable in reading everyone else.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:29 am

In post 1002, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 1001, Cerberus v666 wrote:
In post 999, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 990, Jingle wrote:
In post 988, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: fwiw what peta said makes sense to me... a less brazen scum player would probably bus Porken in this situation while someone like you would conceivably not because you can talk your way out of it
That’s explicitly not the narrative though.
The narrative is that I’m incompetent.

you might have to spell this one out for me, because I didn't get that impression
That's pretty clearly the narrative. Peta even said that Jingles scum reads should be considered cop clears.

Obvious intent to paint Jingles as incompetent.
That's implying incompetent town, not incompetent scum, which is the scenario we were talking about

The consistent you mad bro. The implication being that I’m so lost with porkens going down that the only response I can make is to get angry and storm about.

Like, if peta actually thought I was hyper scum who bet on porkens being salvageable then he wouldn’t also think that my response to Porkens going down anyway would be a temper tantrum. He’d be looking at whether I was consolidating my own position. Which, incidentally, is a far more reasonable assumption of what I’m doing. I’m being as pro town as fucking possible, which is exactly what peta should expect from competent scum jingle here. Hence, the narrative of “Jingle is just super bad at the game”

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:33 am

The reason peta is going for “bad scum” instead of “good scum” is that “good scum” actually means that when I flip green peta has to explain why I’ve been scumreading him all game. It’s much easier to just say “Jingle is bad” and then have a built in “it’s not my fault, he was shit” argument to fall back on if he wins the fight.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:37 am

In post 1010, petapan wrote: i'm trolling you because you annoy me

So… I’m not mad flails scum who is flailing and shit and garbage and you were just making that up to get a lim and now you’re avoiding the points I’ve made to troll me because I’m annoying. Which brings us back to: why are you accusing me of being mad flails scum, and why didn’t you answer the question of why your scumread of me cause any hesitation on the porkens lim?

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:38 am

In post 1013, Adorable wrote: When I saw wgeurts voting Jingle, they said it's them or Jingle today and I interpreted it as if either Jingle or wgeurts will get flipped. I don't know how that happened and why.

Wgeurts is mad that I called attention to them being unavailable for three days and bitched out the thread in general for being lurksacks. Also, being very consistent in just agreeing with whatever peta says, which is apparently a town tell according to cerbs.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:50 am

As best I can tell that’s an appeal to get me to stop pushing my scumread because it’s wrong of me to want to convince the other people in the mafia game that my scumread is scum.

I do in fact enjoy playing mafia, yes.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:54 am

I’ve literally been doing that, actually. I’m just also directly replying to you because if I don’t you can just shout loudly and drown me out. Literally anyone can see that I’ve been directly engaging with fucking everyone I can to try and convince them of my pov and have in fact been doing so all game.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:56 am

In post 1017, HighPrincessErinys wrote: None of this peta vs Jingle shit has made sense though.

Wdym?

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:02 am

Do you disagree that peta has been accusing me of things that are blatantly not happening, positioning himself to be able to push me regardless of how today ends, shading me and discrediting my ability as a player, or taking up contradictory stances about how a theoretical scum buddy plays around porkens?

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:03 am

Because none of that seems like a crock of pointless shit to me.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:23 am

In post 1034, HighPrincessErinys wrote: Yes, not really (he might regardless), yes, don't think so?

Putting aside, for the moment, the actions you don't see as obvious, do you not see the clear scum motivation from peta to do literally all of those? In that context, I think it's pretty clear why I'm fighting this battle. Because all of those things are scummy as fuck, and yet the arguments for peta town are "LLD is genuine through peta" (Fate) and "I'm mindmelding with peta" (wgeurts).

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:32 am

In post 1030, petapan wrote:
In post 1028, Jingle wrote: positioning himself to be able to push me regardless of how today ends
i'm not doing that

Peta definitely walked back from it, but that's 100% what this is.

In post 871, petapan wrote: fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

Yes, yes, I know. "I typed that thinking porkens had self hammered." Quite frankly, I don't believe that peta is town, so I'm not ascribing the most charitable possible conclusion to peta's actions.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:33 am

In post 1037, Fate wrote: Peta is town because his role pm is green

I'm very sorry to hear about your colorblindness.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:14 am

Spoiler:

The whole sequence, and why I don't think the explanation of "I only posted that because selfhammer." holds a lot of weight.

Particularly, Porkens selfvoted and unvoted less than a minute later. People continued playing the game. Peta then decided it must have been a selfhammer 5 minutes later. Also, the votecount on the previous page and the declaration of E-2 as the previous pagetop didn't prevent the idea of selfhammer, but.

All of which does nothing to address the bigger issue, like the burden of proficiency at mech that apparently an unspecified JOAT claim of unknown power level from an unknown alignment slot should make me not attempt to read Fate based on a softclaim of "I'll be a BIG help later" from Porkens. The meat of this interaction isn't whether I should be considered scummy in light of a theoretical scum Porkens flip, it's that peta has been blatantly lying about things happening in the thread to make me look bad regardless of Porkens' flip. And that I believe he's doing so because I'm the one scumreading him.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:23 am

As an oog aside, peta, regardless of your alignment I think it's worth saying that if you do find me annoying I'm willing to avoid you in future games, but having this back and forth with you has been a ton of fun for me and I'd much rather play with you again in the future. I AM here because it's a game and I'm having fun more than anything else. If I were to get genuinely upset I'd like to hope I'd replace out and retire again rather than let it fester like I used to. I've been spending far more time than I should playing mafia because I genuinely enjoy this and I hope that you at least somewhat are enjoying yourself.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:52 am

In post 1057, petapan wrote: because in arguing with him i've come to realize he has a perspective that is very self-centered around him being town and i believe it to be real. he seemed legit worried that i was trying to paint him as a scapegoat.

FWIW the former half of this is true but the latter half isn't. I do tend to base a lot of my reads on how people treat and/or read me, mostly because I know that I'm town. I'm not particularly worried about you 'painting me as a scapegoat' and am fully aware of how likely I am to eat a lim if Porkens does flip red. Most of this arguing is being done for the countercase, which I happen to believe is both more likely and more relevant, that Porkens flips green. Honestly, if Porkens flips red I don't really feel I have much to worry about because there are enough people who were viable counteroptions which never panned out that narrowing down who actually made the Porkens flip happen over say, the HPE or Adorable flip should provide a pretty clear roadmap for a town win. I wouldn't go so far as to say Porkens-red mech clears you, but I definitely wouldn't be interested in a peta elim tomorrow.

My scumread, at the very heart of things, is that you seem to be approaching me in a way where you're not even attempting to read into my intentions and blatantly disregarding what has actually happened to achieve that purpose. You also make a lot of sense as a partner for all of the people I think are most likely to be scum.

The reason I focused on the specific interaction of the 'hammer' reaction was that it seemed like a cut and dry case of you going out of your way to discredit specifically my slot. It wasn't "Fate's defense of Porkens is town." it was "Everyone who isn't voting Porkens bar Jingle is town." That list, of course, is Fate, Porkens, and the three people I think are most likely to actually be scum. 2 of whom were literally absent for the whole of the Porkens wagon.

I will concede however that in hindsight lying about whether you thought it was a self hammer is silly, with the caveat of you continuing to call porkens selfvoting a scumclaim definitely cut the impact of the oh, not a hammer post.

Jingle · Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:55 am

In post 1058, petapan wrote: i do think you might be one of those people where we have a philosophically opposed view of the game that means we're never going to be able to work together well as town but we'll see how this game shakes out

Eh, me and rc have basically opposite views of the game and I've still managed to play well with him on occasion, so I doubt it's something that couldn't be overcome. Also, I vastly prefer scumgames anyway.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:17 am

In post 1109, Cerberus v666 wrote: If nothing in the game occurs to prompt me doing so sooner, I'll likely share in ~96 hours, to see if there's anything more that can be gleaned from the information I have.

You mean like the game mechanic that says "Hey, it's important that you out any useful results before 48 hours so that we can use those results in deciding who is a commute tonight?"

Massclaim today.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:19 am

Given multiple different VT flavors, and multiple instances of at least one VT flavor, there is a chance that we can imply scum pools based on symmetry.

I'm a todd.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:42 am

In post 1138, Cerberus v666 wrote: I'd prefer to see how both these things are handled organically, without information, for *at least* some amount of time.

No.

We have 48 hours to assign a commute. We are outing results ASAP.

Sorry that you're in a game where your desire is stupid.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:44 am

Mena thinks that neither me nor cerbs dying points to peta town. I disagree, but that is a thing he wanted shared.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:49 am

In post 1140, Jingle wrote: Sorry that you're in a game where your desire is stupid.

Sorry, this is rude.

But no. You claimed JOAT to live a day at E-1, claimed to have a protective role, and then lived to D2. You have absolutely no towncred to burn here to delay claiming. There is explicitly a GIANT reason that we should get claims in the open fast, and kicking our heels and going slow is a fucking awful idea. We just had a PR soft and a PR flip in a game with a higher than standard T:S ratio and a public assignment PR mechanic, you're in a pretty fucking suspicious position regardless. If you have useful results, out them now.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:50 am

In post 1142, Radical Rat wrote: Somehow it didn't even occur to me to unvote and attempt to verify the claim before allowing a hammer to happen, and now I'm feeling very silly

Yeah, we were kinda annoyed that I wasn't allowed to corroborate the claim, but honestly limming porkens was probably the play regardless. We were really fucking close to deadline.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:51 am

In post 1107, HighPrincessErinys wrote: This one has it's reasons but it'd like to keep them close to it's chest.

Softclaim btw.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:56 am

In post 1137, petapan wrote: the thing is that the opposite (scum shifting a read to town for no particular reason) happens less often in my experience.

I agree in principle, but will also point out that there are potentially a ton of reasons scum might want to suddenly townread a player that wouldn't necessarily be immediately obvious in the main thread. Don't particularly know if that's the case here.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:58 am

In post 1146, petapan wrote: i don't think CSF is the shot i make here but my perspective is very skewed because to my mind i thought CSF was a VT

If you killed csf it's an odd kill for sure. The kill either implicates cerb or is designed to implicate cerb without risking a protect on me, imo, but tbf we absolutely expected to be dead last night.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:58 am

also, which VT? This is potentially important.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:09 am

loved is a confirmable role. It means that she requires 1 more vote to lim. We WILL be confirming that today.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:10 am

In post 1163, Fate wrote: oh setup breaking yeah thats gonna work in TEAM GODDAMN MAFIA

Hi I'm Jingle. You might not know this, but I specialize in bending setups over your kitchen table and ensuring your security deposit is well beyond your reach by doing things no one wants to talk about to it.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:17 am

oh, defiling your furniture is in addition to letting you murder scumfucks traditionally, not in lieu. But you might wanna eat out tonight.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:38 am

In post 1162, Fate wrote: Not really sure why today, JINGLE BELL

Mostly cause we have a public one way commuter, so the most powerful PR is actually unfuckwithable today.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:40 am

In post 1177, Radical Rat wrote: This is a scumclaim. You were JUST talking about how you thought Porkens claim was incredibly suspicious, but Mafia wouldn't have had any way to know Toad VTs were a thing, and you existing confirms they exist, which SHOULD have cleared Porkens for you.

I was trying to slowroll that, but yes, the sequence is super sus.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:46 am

Hmmm. Presumably cerbs softed that you blocked him last night, which means you don't out your target until after he's claimed his. This setup is very interesting.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:16 am

Cerb is softing that he has a conditional result, thus would like time to figure out what it means. A role that should get a result but didn't would make sense in that context.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:28 am

In post 1186, Fate wrote: Please don't be scum

It's my Party I'll be scum if I want to.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:36 pm

In post 1213, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
In post 1211, Radical Rat wrote: but Town has to either mislim someone or have multiple VTs out themselves to figure it out.
Considering Porkens flipped Toad and now peta and (presumably) Jingle have claimed Toad... It seems that every VT actually literally is a Toad.

Yes, I claimed Todd.

HPE why haven’t you claimed?

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:43 pm

Missing claims are wgeurtz and fate

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:54 pm

Yes, that should go without saying.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:55 pm

In post 1219, Adorable wrote: GIF has been doing mech solving. I'll have to paraphrase those later since I am busy with chores.

I’d prefer you wait for wgeurts and fate, tbh

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:03 pm

In post 1208, Fate wrote: Oretty sure I know the flavor of the scumteam atm

In post 18, wgeurts wrote: VOTE: Cerb666

Quote for ping: claim now.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:29 pm

Fwiw, I will not be voting to power up rat. This is not related to my thoughts on rats alignment.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:30 pm

VOTE: adorable might as well do this while we wait.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:33 pm

@cakez: if a post contained a hammer vote and an invite in that order would you count it as a hammer?

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:34 pm

@cakez: if a post contained a hammer vote and an unvote in that order would you count it as a hammer?

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:38 pm

Reasons. Reasons and stuff.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:39 pm

I mostly said that so that you won’t get awarded the power up when I’m 90% sure you’re the wrong player to award it to, but I’m also waiting on two claims that I’m 75% sure I know what they are.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:40 pm

Wanna help confirm adorable is loved?

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:52 pm

All in one vote is fine unless cakez says it isn’t.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:52 pm

UNVOTE:

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:56 pm

Adorable self hammering on purpose to stop a successful doc protect is the best possible result.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:44 pm

I mean, there’s a reason scum doesn’t fakeclaim loved. It’s incredibly dumb and doesn’t really gain them anything.

Not saying the claim makes adorable town, just saying that if it was a lie we probably just win anyway.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:26 pm

And then there was fate.

Jingle · Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:05 pm

I’m heading to bed, but cerbs needs to fullclaim remaining actions after fate claims.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:58 am

I think it is highly likely scum has a very strong workaround for the tanuki suit, such as a sman. I find it very unlikely that scum has multiple such work arounds. To that effect I think it’s much higher ev for you and another protective to cross target and lower the risk of a soft fake guilty that way than for you to get the tabuk suit outright. Also, as you pointed out, you have a role which is a soft counterclaim to the setup itself. Added onto that, your role is one that is inherently low information if it succeeds, so is less important to ensure it isn’t interfered with than other roles even if I’m wrong and scum don’t have an SMan or we manage to hit the sman today.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:20 am

PowerUp: HPE

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:31 am

In post 843, wgeurts wrote: Sure, read for me my content but leave my absence out of it. I am going to be reading in the next hour.

Also I strongly disagree that I haven't got content, I'm one of the largest posters despite having not been active past few days. I hope that I'll find actual content regarding said posts that I can interact with.

Was rereading wgeurts’ iso and I saw this. To clarify, this was wgeurts responding to a post where I said that wgeurts was prodded for lack of content. I didn’t mean that to be taken as “wgeurts doesn’t have content” which is a blatantly untrue statement, but rather a point of fact. Wgeurts was literally prodded despite making a prod he because the game rules specify you must make a game advancing post every 48 hours. At this point clearing this up is probably a nonissue, but I noticed at least wgeurts seemed to think I meant the former.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:43 am

Normal Bodyguard explicitly doesn’t redirect the kill so a successful bodyguard attempt should kill adorable even with your or tanuki interference.

Also, powerups are explicitly not part of a role and so would not be inherited by a backup.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:46 am

The latter is mod confirmed, the former assumes adorable is a normal bodyguard which is a thing I can’t ask the mod directly but wasn’t pursuing atm because it’s honestly a non issue imo. Adorable dying through the use of her ability is a good thing.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:47 am

In post 1260, Radical Rat wrote: Though the backup point is somewhat irrelevant now

It rather isn’t, but I can explain that after we’ve finished with the claims.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:45 am

Hm. We’re missing an expected role. Interesting.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:31 am

Adorable
Petapan
Wgeurts*
HighPrincessErinys
Fate
Radical Rat
Cerberus v666

This is roughly where I'm at at the moment, btw. Obviously pending Fate's claim, but yeah.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:55 am

the footnote is from the OP, it denotes a prod. I literally copied the Plist and reordered it based on what felt right.

It's town

Scum

as is standard.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:56 am

yes, I'm aware that my reads have massively shifted over the last 3 days.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:06 am

Ask but don't publish if GiF is sharing that for reel reels or if that is designed to entice a particular fakeclaim.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:31 am

In post 1280, Radical Rat wrote: I'm a lot more worried about a roleblocker than a strongman, because if a strongman exists, then the Tanuki's basically just a red herring, and me being a rolestopper instead of a straight doctor implies non-lethal interference exists.

I'm really not worried about you being roleblocked. You being roleblocked is equivalent to your target not being roleblocked.

Giving you the tanuki suit to make it so you can prevent another role from being fucked with is theoretically better value in specifically the case where you are town and there is no way for scum to interact with multiple rolestopping effects. In all other cases, it's better to skip the middleman and ensure HPE is rolestopped than to worry about protecting you over HPE when we can. Especially given adorable's existence making it unlikely you die anyway.

In post 1276, Adorable wrote: I don't know what this means.

That's okay.

In post 1282, Radical Rat wrote: If we line things up correctly, every single PR claim can have some sort of protection tonight.

Where that chain falls apart can be used to work toward a proper solve, or scum'll be cowards and just shoot a VT claim

Yes, we can definitely ensure it is entirely safe for scum to shoot a VT with no risk that any of our power is relevant tonight. I agree.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:34 am

I'm still kinda waiting on Fate before I share all of my setup spec stuff, btw, I just think from a trustworthiness and importance of results stance HPE is a higher priority slot.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:10 pm

In post 1319, petapan wrote:
vote powerup: HPE

i think there's way too much claimed power here for a 10p game with 2 mafia even if we assume mafia have some kind of ninja strongman craziness

Agreed. Which brings us to this:

JOAT
Thief/Flavor MD
Loved Bodyguard
UB
Rolestopper
Even Night Tracker
4 VT

+Publicly assigned rolestop on N2

I'm going to be treating all of {Jingle/Wgeurts/peta} as conftown for this day at least, and likely for the entire game. At the very least balance wise, one of the PR claims is lying and I find it likely two of the PR claims are lying. There's just no way all of that power is town

Adorable is almost certainly trueclaiming: loved is a nothingburger modifier and bodyguard is a shit fakeclaim, because you don't ever live to XLO.

I explicitly believe the UB claim given the lack of investigations. Cakez likely didn't want us clearing too many peeps at once, but also didn't want to give scum a chance to cripple town off of one NK.

Fate's roleclaim is very left field in a way that seems like a trueclaim. I don't think it's a fakeclaim. It could be a named VT, in which case it's possible peta or wgeurts is scum, but we can burn that bridge tomorrow when we see the third publicly assigned power.

Cerbs' vanilla cop doesn't make sense as a town role in this setup, nor does the usage of it to target a crumbed PR on the night when he was pseudo-outed OVER a 1 shot bp that would presumably ONLY be useful that night or a roleblock that would potentially stop a NK. That's not a town thought process, and cerbs functionally scumclaimed when he said that. I also think it was likely a rolecop as opposed to a vanilla cop.

Rat's role is odd, in that it is notably stronger than all the other roles town has. I'm not interested in eliminating them today, but they are my strongest guess for second scum. I also don't think the I SHOULD BE TANUKI 100%! to Why not me Tanuki? to Okay, actually HPE fine tanuki progression came off as very natural, but we'll see.

We are explicitly missing a role to take the game off of evens.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:18 pm

In post 1283, Jingle wrote:
Adorable wrote: I don't know what this means.
That's okay.

I was asking if those reads were doctored to convince scum not to claim VT because all the VT claims were low in the list, or if GIF was genuinely scumreading all the VT claims.

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:14 pm

Fate claimed a role which would be game specific with a flavor that matches in a way consistent with his desire to claim last. It seems like an odd fakeclaim to make. I'm also very much of the opinion that even if the JOAT is scum we have this much town power remaining, but I'm willing to put that off til tomorrow due to the fact that we'll have at least one more flip and we'll know what the last power up is.

VOTE: cerb

Jingle · Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:04 pm

I don't particularly think cerbs not vanilla copping a player who had already claimed is farfetched, fwiw.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:38 am

So GIF’s proposed setup is

3vt
Rolestopper
Bodyguard
Even tracker
UB
Luigi

V

Goon and full Sman?

And town gets a public rolestop and something else on top of that?

I agree that scum probably had a toad pm to look at, but there’s no way all of that power and the extra mislim that this being a ten player gives us. Also, full sman goon doesn’t at all explain the mechanical break of rolestopper and Luigi cross targeting.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:23 am

Yes, adorable is actually loved.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:23 am

She is conftown until XLO.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:25 am

In post 1337, Adorable wrote:
In post 1333, Jingle wrote: So GIF’s proposed setup is

3vt
Rolestopper
Bodyguard
Even tracker
UB
Luigi

V

Goon and full Sman?

And town gets a public rolestop and something else on top of that?

I agree that scum probably had a toad pm to look at, but there’s no way all of that power and the extra mislim that this being a ten player gives us. Also, full sman goon doesn’t at all explain the mechanical break of rolestopper and Luigi cross targeting.
You misunderstood GIF. I paraphrased yesterday he thinks the scum team is Cerb/vt claim and I didn't paraphrase the setup on what GIF suspected. This is what he thinks the setup is.

VT x 3
Loved Bodyguard
Even night Tracker
A Motion Detector of some sort
Universal Backup
Rolestopper

vs

JoaT
1-shot Strongman

That is more reasonable, but we also have at least one useful power up.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:30 am

Cerb fought against claiming and peaced. He’s done basically nothing since.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:40 am

If HPE scum the lack of reasonable results will be way more telling than anything D1. Your case was all play style.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:59 am

In post 1350, wgeurts wrote: Jingle, seeing how you're here. Can you elaborate in some detail how the heck you've gone from scum-reading everything I do to somehow putting me in a town-bloc? If you're written why somewhere just link me the post but I want to keep this progression in mind.

In post 1247, wgeurts wrote: VT Toad

Catching up tomorrow, sorry for my appalling absence everyone

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:02 am

In post 1320, Jingle wrote:
In post 1319, petapan wrote:
vote powerup: HPE

i think there's way too much claimed power here for a 10p game with 2 mafia even if we assume mafia have some kind of ninja strongman craziness
Agreed. Which brings us to this:

JOAT
Thief/Flavor MD
Loved Bodyguard
UB
Rolestopper
Even Night Tracker
4 VT

+Publicly assigned rolestop on N2

I'm going to be treating all of {Jingle/Wgeurts/peta} as conftown for this day at least, and likely for the entire game. At the very least balance wise, one of the PR claims is lying and I find it likely two of the PR claims are lying. There's just no way all of that power is town

Adorable is almost certainly trueclaiming: loved is a nothingburger modifier and bodyguard is a shit fakeclaim, because you don't ever live to XLO.

I explicitly believe the UB claim given the lack of investigations. Cakez likely didn't want us clearing too many peeps at once, but also didn't want to give scum a chance to cripple town off of one NK.

Fate's roleclaim is very left field in a way that seems like a trueclaim. I don't think it's a fakeclaim. It could be a named VT, in which case it's possible peta or wgeurts is scum, but we can burn that bridge tomorrow when we see the third publicly assigned power.

Cerbs' vanilla cop doesn't make sense as a town role in this setup, nor does the usage of it to target a crumbed PR on the night when he was pseudo-outed OVER a 1 shot bp that would presumably ONLY be useful that night or a roleblock that would potentially stop a NK. That's not a town thought process, and cerbs functionally scumclaimed when he said that. I also think it was likely a rolecop as opposed to a vanilla cop.

Rat's role is odd, in that it is notably stronger than all the other roles town has. I'm not interested in eliminating them today, but they are my strongest guess for second scum. I also don't think the I SHOULD BE TANUKI 100%! to Why not me Tanuki? to Okay, actually HPE fine tanuki progression came off as very natural, but we'll see.

We are explicitly missing a role to take the game off of evens.

This is my reasoning for basically everything today, fwiw.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:13 am

In post 1351, Cerberus v666 wrote: This is somewhat inaccurate. I fought against claiming my investigation result first thing in the day/before any conversation happened, and then yes, I have not contributed since. I have been tied up with RL/not been home to actually engage after having finished ISOing RR and Adorable yesterday. I expect to finish up things with everyone by tomorrow morning at the latest. The cliff's notes on RR and Adorable is essentially RR looks extremely good, progressions are good, questions and follow ups are good. Adorable has some contradictions in play/unexplained read transitions towards the latter half of today. Barring me noticing anything absurd/good points others brought up that remained unaddressed and remain strong, RR is confidently town and Adorable is a town lean.

I agree that you haven't argued against any cases or engaged meaningfully with mech stuff. Literally everything you've done today is push back against the massclaim and then leave. I guess I didn't clarify that when I presented you with the reason we didn't have 96 hours to wait for talking about shit you backed down and partial claimed, but I thought that was contextually obvious given that we had your partial claim.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:17 am

In post 1356, wgeurts wrote: but want to get further interactions in chart.

The only further interaction is a soft 1v1 that Rat is hyper focused on being a red herring between Fate and Rat. I'm inclined to agree with Rat that it points at Fate town and also that if Rat town it is mildly scum indicative for cerbs, but I also think it's a fine candidate for kicking the can down the road.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:23 am

Oh, wrt the porkens claim, I actually saw the claim before I noticed the thread was locked and my initial reaction was "That's odd, I'd assumed the VT's were individually flavored." I would have strongly considered flavor cc'ing, but don't think the assumption that peta wouldn't have taken it as a scumclaim with that assumption is truly unreasonable. It is slightly eyebrow raising, but I think we're in a world where the setup is fairly clearing for the VTs so I'm not particularly worried about it for today. I also think wgeurtz/cerb is not S/S, (and have since early D1) and so if I need to reevaluate on a VT it's probably peta, but I don't really think peta is scum anymore.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:43 am

In post 1348, wgeurts wrote: I am really tempted to yell about the last sentence but I'm going to refrain... for now.

The last sentence was all play style.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:37 am

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:13 am

Hmm. I don't think the E-1 on cerb is all that compelling given thread sentiment was already very anti cerb. I do think there's something odd going on if RR/cerb but more to the direction of the soft guilty and RR/Fate playing out with cerb being the other scum. If cerb is scum does RR really throw soft evidence on that pile in a way that doesn't really make them look much townier?

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:03 am

UNVOTE:

To allow cerb to discuss. I am potentially wrong, after all.

Jingle · Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:29 pm

In post 1388, petapan wrote: powers for cerb in a vacuum are more useful for scum than town

however analyzing games that way is very likely to result in a lot of losses because mods will give scummy sounding roles to town so i'm unconvinced
by that particular reason
- i was stuck with a role in hollow knight where the abilities were all near useless for town but would have had incredible pro-scum utility. i was still town, and i got heat because all i could do was trueclaim my role.

it could be that cerb is scum who stepped on a rake and had no ideas so he just claimed his role without changing things but i wouldn't be sure it's the only possibility yet

i still need to give people a proper reread when i have time

I agree that cerb having a vanilla cop as town isn’t impossible. It could be designed to soft clear vts due to the rather large probability of double scum prs.

My suspicion is far more fueled by how he used or claimed to use it than that he claimed VC.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 am

@Cerbs

: As outed JOAT, why didn't you use BP?

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 6:47 am

In post 1400, Adorable wrote: Whenever I am scum, me and my scum buddies claim last in a mass claim and this is why Fate claiming last I don't see it towny. That conflicting result from Fate it could be scum who messed up on their claim. I'm still suspicious of Fate and only reason why I'm not looking too hard on Fate is because of GIF's town read on Fate and GIF had a feeling Porkens was town and his read turned out to be right.

To explain GiF's point, or what I think is GiF's point: scumFate had the ability to claim whatever. He was V/LA, which means he and his buddy had a chance to workshop the claim without undue suspicion. He had every option to not come out with a claim that put him in a mechanical focus, even if said focus wasn't a 1v1. He had every option to not come out with a claim that would give him continuous pressure to perform. He didn't do either of those things. He claimed something that would arguably be difficult to make up in a way that drew a ton of attention when he simply didn't have to.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 6:50 am

In post 1392, Fate wrote: do i have to carry this whole goddamn town

Sorry, that backpack isn't full of the whole goddamn town. I just put some rocks in there to make you feel better.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 7:16 am

To clarify, are you asking why scumFate would want to lie if he had that role, why town Fate would lie about the mech disagreement, or why Fate might not have understood the mech disagreement before claiming? Because those are all very different questions.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 7:21 am

In post 1304, Fate wrote: But it said that I
didn't detect
any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something

Phrasing here very much implies that regardless of Fate's understanding it was a "No Visit" and not a "No Result".

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 7:39 am

In post 1415, Radical Rat wrote: The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.

Rolestopper wasn't really a thing when I joined, let alone when Fate played regularly. He's older than NAR. Dunno if that context changes anything for you (it makes things more likely to be genuine for me) but it does exist.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 7:48 am

In normal games cops have distinct no result and negative result PMs. It is theoretically possible for no result/neutral result pms to overlap, but such is incredibly rare and a major design concern.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 8:36 am

In post 1437, Fate wrote: it sounds like it makes someone an ascetic

Prevents all actions targeting a player, including kills.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 8:37 am

Tracker : Roleblocker
Watcher : Rolestopper

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 8:39 am

In post 1444, Fate wrote: Now how in the sam hell is that balanced [in this setup]

I mean... That's what I'm looking into atm. We clearly have too much power, so scum is in the claimed power. If RR/Cerb/You all town we have three blocking roles, one of which is scum and a public blocking role that is controlled by public vote.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 8:41 am

Strongman explicitly breaks rolestopping in normals, although as a theme the mod could choose to have an alternative resolution for balance reasons.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 8:42 am

The role is quite literally the same role as the powerup we gave out today, but without any restriction on only being available N2.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 9:17 am

I mean... I'm waiting to hear cerb's conclusions to be able to teamhunt and waiting on the flip to look for associations.

There's also relevant spec to do if cerb flips scum with a different role and if cerb flips scum with a roleblock vs if cerb flips scum without a roleblock vs if cerb flips town. There's spec to be done when we see if we do indeed have a vig tomorrow.

I will say that we have interfering protective claims, so leashing one doesn't work outright. (if RR and Adorable crosstarget we lose value)

The correct NA plan, which I haven't bothered with posting yet, is to have the plist split into two groups. I would say Rat on Adorable or Fate, Adorable on Not {Adorable/Fate/HPE}. HPE targets as it pleases, aiming for scum nightkilling. If we lim scum today, HPE getting a result is as good as a cop.

Jingle · Mon May 01, 2023 9:44 am

Not Adorable's role, her ability as a player.

Jingle · Tue May 02, 2023 1:18 am

Hey cerb, feel free to keep going anytime.

Jingle · Tue May 02, 2023 2:16 am

I have one more post I want to make, but if I don't get around to it by tomorrow I'll just revote and hope.

Jingle · Wed May 03, 2023 10:59 am

Legitimately hadn't realized that it'd been so long since my last post, but I'm definitely digging the conversation recently. These pushes are interesting, to say the least. I feel like a decent chunk of the players are playing as though cerbs is a foregone miselim, which is weird. I'm not interested in jumping ship yet, but I'm definitely willing to let him keep speaking.

Jingle · Wed May 03, 2023 11:27 am

In post 1548, Jingle wrote:
I'm not interested in jumping ship yet
, but I'm definitely willing to let him keep speaking.

I'm definitely still in camp yeet cerb. I just think there's value in letting this play out for a bit. I'm excited that we finally seem to have everyone active and readable now that I'm doing fuckall, though.

Jingle · Wed May 03, 2023 12:18 pm

In post 1552, Cerberus v666 wrote: Wgeurts, HPE, RR, Jingle - Can you guys speak on the everyone else questions??

I think that one of the participants in the Jingle/Peta interactions is probably the smartest and sexiest person you'll ever meet. Also, peta was involved.

Seriously, though, I've talked at length about Peta, and I'm not sure what you want me to say here. I think peta has had some sketch contributions, but also I think that at least one of the scum is not in the VT claims and peta has felt a lot better recently.

Jingle · Thu May 04, 2023 5:21 pm

In post 1575, Radical Rat wrote: I mean my point is that with the wagon existing in its present state for so long, I'd have expected scum to capitalize on it by now.

You saying "Ah, but the wagon exists! Checkmate athesists!" isn't super relevant, no.

How so? The wagon is dead literally because I asked it to be dead. I wouldn’t expect scum to want to go against my request for a little time given that I seem to have the respect and trust of everyone to at least a moderate degree.

Jingle · Fri May 05, 2023 5:09 am

In post 1581, Radical Rat wrote: It's been several days since then though, and not even another E-1 vote. I was also in favor of giving Cerb time to talk first, and I do think there's been some valuable discussion come out of doing so, but by now it just feels like stalling.

I mean, yeah, I have been sitting on my thumbs for too long. I'll either do the things I wanted or vote tonight, (hopefully both!) but the narrative that scum would be the ones to shake things up when specifically I had requested time seems to ring a bit hollow. If anything, I'd think town would be more likely to be impatient and not play ball. It's not like cerbs has been at risk of not being the lim since my request, so if this is a miselim they're probably entirely fine with just waiting and if it's on scum suddenly voting now would just look worse for them, not better.

Unless I specifically was scum, this is pretty much the gamestate that would be expected when I asked for time and then failed to meet my own self imposed deadline. I will admit I've been a bit selfish and using this time to prioritize other things though.

Jingle · Fri May 05, 2023 5:32 am

The Living:

Jingle

wgeurts
peta
Adorable
HPE
RadRat
Cerbs
Fate

7 Choose Two, 21 scumteams. Let's start with Cerbs:

Cerbs/wgeurts - I touched on this briefly earlier, but I very much doubt this is an aligned pair. The entrance of both players doesn't seem scripted. Particularly the RVS mason bit and the general buddying tone from both participants early seems like a waste of energy if they're a scumteam. Wgeurts establishing themselves as a cerb authority early was a minor point of concern with this team, but later wgeurts approach was consistent. (wgeurts found cerb scummy while refusing to push there D1, even when we got the wagon to take off, but came into D2 with murder in their eyes.) The weird defense of wgeurts from cerbs towards wgeurts, however, functionally guaranteed that cerbs would flip if wgeurts flipped scum. There wasn't great reasoning, just a "You shouldn't suspect wgeurts because you're reading them wrong. The way to read wgeurts is consistancy." This pairing is not impossible, but is very unlikely imo.

Cerb/peta
Cerb/Adorable
Cerb/HPE
Cerb/RadRat
Cerb/Fate

Posting now so I can resume from another computer later, but I ran out of time for now.

Jingle · Fri May 05, 2023 4:27 pm

Yeah, I remember. I’ll decide whether I think a vt could be scum tomorrow, when we have more complete setup information.

I don’t really have the wim to finish my analysis, so as promised

VOTE: cerbs

Jingle · Sat May 06, 2023 6:36 am

In post 1594, Adorable wrote: Don't presume power-ups in the consideration of setup speculation. Power-ups intend to be a prize and it loses the point of being a prize if it gets factored into the setup balance.

That’s… a garbage take. Of course the power ups are going to be a factor in setup balance. We don’t have newbies where we suddenly grant a player a vig kill because they made a really funny post, because that would be horribly unbalanced and bad for the game. We don’t let people dayvig on their scumdays because that would fuck with game balance and be bad for games. Similarly, every aspect of this game, from roles to powerups to flavor are all factors in how the game is designed. Given that this is team mafia and not a bastard meme setup, cakez at least attempted to make it balanced.

Jingle · Sat May 06, 2023 10:17 am

In post 1602, Fate wrote: Such faith in humanity these Aquarians....

My mystic crystals are incredibly revealing, FYI.

Also, a public rolestop is actually very powerful for town and situationally mildly powerful for scum, particularly with an investigation virtually confirmed on the night it's available. Also also, I've seen enough Cakez setups to have a rough idea of how he balances things. Tomorrow, we have a lot of information to work with on that angle and since cerbs is almost certainly flipping scum.

Jingle · Sat May 06, 2023 10:42 am

I mean... I'm good either way. I just don't see his D1 play coming from town that has a BP shot. Particularly the bit about "I love being scummy enough to not be shot" seems like a something that never comes from town cerbs' perspective as a bp.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 12:09 pm

Why the fuck is the tracker claiming before the rolestopper who is scummier?

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 12:10 pm

I mean... too late now, I guess, but wtf.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 12:52 pm

Than HPE? HPE is very town. You are not.

VOTE: Powerup Wgeurts

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 12:54 pm

In post 1651, petapan wrote: By description it's a commuter, "causing all actions targeting to fail" would quite likely supersede a strongman

It's description is exactly a rolestop wording wise and rolestops are pierced by strongmen.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:03 pm

In post 1657, Adorable wrote: Last day Jingle said RR should protect in Fate or me and I am surprised mafia killed Fate because of this and I would have thought mafia would kill elsewhere.

Also, two shot rolestop not being used on a claimed investigate because "I could do more later" is sus as fuck.

Does GIF want to tell me that

3 VT
Even Tracker
UB
2 Shot Rolestop
Loved BG

1 shot public rolestop
1 shot public doc

VS

3 Shot Roleblocker
Limited SMan

is reasonable?

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:04 pm

I fell asleep at the wheel yesterday, btw. We should have leashed HPE to Rat in the case of a scumflip.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:07 pm

Point, but it's also not as weak as 1 shot doc on a specific player because it's guaranteed to be available on N3.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:12 pm

How would that be a fake guilty? That would be you actually being tracked to a kill.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:15 pm

Full strongman means that all three powerups are useless red herrings, RR is strictly antitown if town, your role is literally useless, and this is basically Even Night Tracker and UB against a team with what is functionally a full roleblocker.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:18 pm

In post 1661, Radical Rat wrote: Like, I was preparing to fight off a fake guilty when I saw the flip

When were you preparing to fight off a fake guilty, exactly? Night phase or post seeing Fate flip?

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:18 pm

In post 1677, HighPrincessErinys wrote: That sounds like "weird ass setup" to me.

It actually sounds like horribly scumsided garbage, but yeah.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:34 pm

Hm.

I'm way to dead atm to be able to work out optimization, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

I feel like we have enough obvtown slots to just be in autowin, but I should give due diligence anyway.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 1:39 pm

Koba wants me to thank you for killing one of the people they were paranoid about, rat.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 2:01 pm

In post 1685, Adorable wrote: Jingle do you really think a rolestopper is scum with a scum roleblocker that flipped?

At the moment? Yes.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 2:02 pm

Or rather, I don't think the play makes sense with the claim, nor do I think the claim fits into the setup.

Jingle · Tue May 09, 2023 2:03 pm

I don't actually think RR is a rolestopper.

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 7:31 am

In post 1698, Radical Rat wrote: @Jingle
If you assume I am in fact a two-shot rolestopper, where do you think the setup breaks down elsewhere?

If I assume you're a two shot rolestopper I also have to consider that the setup is townsided, I think.

Adorable's claim is not one that comes from scum. She WILL die before the end of the game, and knowing that her partner was the defacto lim for D2 (It was obvious to everyone, or at least should have been, that I was going to get cerb blood as soon as he claimed that nonsense) she would not have claimed a role with a literal time bomb strapped to its chest.

Fate's role wasn't actually strong. He was a an investigative, nominally, but not one that got hard results prior to cerb's death, because Kamek is pretty clearly non paranormal. Even then, there's a potential for a false clear because of the ambiguity of the results themselves if there's a ghost on the scumteam that can visit without killing (Rolecop?).

Even night tracker is very weak. We could expect one, maybe two results before XLO. With just those two roles, a UB makes sense. If we add a ninja to the scumteam, those roles don't make any sense again.

The real issue here is the sheer amount of protective power we have. If the event as a whole didn't appear to be massively townsided (obviously I can't go into specifics while following the rules) then I wouldn't even entertain the idea that a VT was scum here, but depressingly I can see it being the case.

Everything in me is screaming lim RR today and we win, but here's the shimmy: I think we can make this auto. Wgeurts is conftown. Adorable is just about. I don't see a world where HPE is scum. That leaves, theoretically, me RR peta. If we lim peta today and RR protects HPE while wgeurts protects Adorable, who holsters. We can no lim into 3p with adorable protecting HPE tomorrow. That gets us to a worst case scenario of a 1v1 between two players in XLO, one of which will be HPE.

This falls apart with a strongman, but a strongman that isn't heavily gated just invalidates almost all of the setup and doesn't seem reasonable. Thoughts?

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 am

FWIW, the above plan works if we choose to lim me over peta as well, it's just an XLO of RR, Peta and HPE with one of RR/Peta conftown instead of me being the conftown.

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 7:36 am

In post 1707, Radical Rat wrote: I do not believe it was necessary to bus Cerb there.

Cerbs was dead the minute he claimed BP, JSYK. It was a scumclaim, pure and simple, and the only reason the day extended was because I wanted to see what spew would happen.

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 5:54 pm

In post 1740, petapan wrote: anyway i am entirely in favor of killing me today, wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts. (you can shuffle the latter two if you have a different comfort level just firm it up before ending the day)

I'm cool with this. I'm honestly fine with HPE/Adorable/wgeurts winning atp if any of them are scum. Are we agreed that "I failed my protection due to strongman" gets instantly elimmed?

If so, I say we wait for PRs to confirm they are down to clown and then just end the day.

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 6:27 pm

In post 1742, Adorable wrote: will have a look at Jingle and HPE later.

If you don't mind, I can save you a lot of time. I have one completed scum game that is recent. I have one completed towngame that is recent. I was much higher effort in both of those than in this one. I am firmly within the realm of what I can pull off as scum if I wanted to, because there is literally only one way I can be outside of that and it is to make it literally impossible for myself to win as scum. That's my trust tell. I don't make the game impossible to win for scum as scum.

I was very much antibus in Election, but was basically forced into it D1 and should have been forced into it when Ali scumclaimed by inaction but somehow we managed to make Ali's scumclaim seem reasonable. I could maybe have done the same with cerbs, but I probably wouldn't have given LLD at least would have been able to figure out what I was doing. I do think that my play as a whole has been very protown this game, but I have had some very strong scumgames in the past, so there will probably always be some level of paranoia about me.

In Coalition the entire playerlist was lurkery and I did a similar buddy analysis thing but actually followed through then got killed N1. We lost.

Jingle · Wed May 10, 2023 6:32 pm

In post 1750, Jingle wrote: because there is literally only one way I can be outside of that and it is to make it literally impossible for myself to win as scum.

To put this into perspective, about nine years ago I was working a minimum wage job and made an alignment bet that I was town on a brand new graphics card with a friend in an IRL game of Secret Hitler. He bet I was a fascist. I told him that if I flipped fascist I would give him the $800 piece of hardware. I won the game, and then immediately gave him an $800 piece of equipment. I don't have a scumrange.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 6:31 am

In post 1762, Radical Rat wrote: And then ever since my claim he's been shading me but never really acting on it.

The day when I was only ever going to vote scum or the day when I'm of the opinion that there are three locktown who aren't me and we can force through three lims?

Like... legitimately fine with being the lim today, but explicitly it's RR tomorrow and peta after that. No deviations no reevaluations. Just go for it. If the locktown agree I'll self vote right now to mitigate the paranoia.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 6:32 am

In post 1760, Radical Rat wrote: But today's elimination DOES matter.

It literally does not. But okay.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 6:44 am

In post 1762, Radical Rat wrote: But the mechanical takes, well... by his own admission, they haven't been as good as they're supposed to be.

Also... Bullshit. The event as a whole has been more townsided than it should have been, for various reasons individual to the games but that I will be happy to discuss when I can actually discuss all of the things in all of the games.

The mech stuff for this game, specifically? I have been 100% on the ball. I expected there to be a vig or another way to take the game off of evens, because evens are generally unfun game design, but I never guaranteed that such would be the case. Accusing me of not having perfect setup information is asinine. Accusing me of having unreasonable setup speculation given the available data is ridiculous.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 6:49 am

In post 1766, Radical Rat wrote: So you believe that Fate's role is legitimately useless then?

No? I believe fate's role was designed to give unreliable guilties on a specific scum player OR to act as a confirmable role to demonstrate roleblocking failures. It is entirely possible you or peta is a ghost flavored scum, but any ability that prevents the clear chain tonight from preventing a kill outside of the PoE ALSO invalidates too much of the setup for town to have enough power.

Adorable doesn't make sense as any reasonable ghost character. HPE is town on play. Wgeurts is a tracker inno on already 95% town based on crossbuddying between wgeurts and cerbs D1.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 7:11 am

To elaborate:

Adorable is proven loved. There are roughly 3 Loogi's mansion characters that could be loved characters, and none of them are significant even in the context of that game (one of the individual boos is love themed, there's a spinster ghost in the basement that's pining for love, and there are the dancing couple who can only be hoover'd while distracted; None are even area bosses). There are three 'ghosts' that could be loved in the paper mario series, all of which are both good guys (mario partners) and side characters in a non canon section of the franchise. That's it. Also, bodyguard is a suicide fakeclaim to make when Adorable wouldn't have had enough setup info to know it'd be possible and Cakez slightly modspewed it as real based on answering questions about the role to not Adorable.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 7:26 am

The proposed plan is to lim me today. Doubting the plan because you don't trust me is asinine.

This is all just convincing me you're scum and lim me lim you lim peta wins the game 100% of the time.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 7:37 am

Not a bluff, MULTITASKING redirector worse for setup balance than SMan, yadda yadda yadda. But okay, you can continue tilting at windmills.

Jingle · Thu May 11, 2023 10:07 am

Koba has a wall of quotes they want me to dump to towncase myself, but I honestly can't be assed if I can get the explicit agreement. This post is to make them stop trying to get me to effort.

Jingle · Fri May 12, 2023 1:52 am

In post 1776, Radical Rat wrote: Does Koba disagree with you that it's auto-win?

Koba thinks there’s a chance that someone will vote adorable or HPE over peta in 3p.

Jingle · Fri May 12, 2023 10:04 am

In post 1775, Jingle wrote:
I honestly can't be assed if I can get the explicit agreement.

Jingle · Fri May 12, 2023 2:25 pm

In post 1763, Jingle wrote:
Like... legitimately fine with being the lim today, but explicitly it's RR tomorrow and peta after that. No deviations no reevaluations. Just go for it. If the locktown agree I'll self vote right now to mitigate the paranoia.

In post 1740, petapan wrote: wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts. (you can shuffle the latter two if you have a different comfort level just firm it up before ending the day)

Jingle · Fri May 12, 2023 4:15 pm

In post 1787, Radical Rat wrote: We can eliminate you before me then if it ends up in that situation. It shouldn't be super important unless scum has been hiding a double kill somewhere

No.

Jingle · Fri May 12, 2023 4:17 pm

We lim Jingle, the night actions occur as proscribed, we lim rad rat, we lim peta. Or I start efforting to clear myself. Those are literally the only two paths.

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 1:00 am

In post 1792, Radical Rat wrote:
In post 1789, Jingle wrote:
In post 1787, Radical Rat wrote: We can eliminate you before me then if it ends up in that situation. It shouldn't be super important unless scum has been hiding a double kill somewhere
No.
Why does it matter? Like, either way it goes we both end up eliminated. I don't personally mind being eliminated first, but peta has expressed that he does mind being eliminated last, so???

Because you not dying immediately tomorrow means an opportunity for shenanigans. If the plan falls apart because of night action fuckups, you are far more likely to be scum than peta, so you die first.

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 1:02 am

In post 1791, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
In post 1790, Jingle wrote: We lim Jingle, the night actions occur as proscribed, we lim rad rat, we lim peta. Or I start efforting to clear myself. Those are literally the only two paths.
You certainly aren't making an effort now, so...

That is true. I’m saying that I believe this game to be completely solved and that I don’t have to try. Do you agree to lim me then rat then peta in that order? Y/N

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 1:04 am

In post 1782, wgeurts wrote: Not fully done reading up just yet, will chip in once finished

Do you agree to lim me then rat then peta in that order and protect wgeurts? Y/N

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 1:06 am

In post 1757, Adorable wrote: Eliminating in a player who failed their protection because of a strongman looks manipulative.

Do you agree to lim me then rat then peta in that order and protect wgeurts? Y/N

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 1:06 am

In post 1795, Jingle wrote:
In post 1782, wgeurts wrote: Not fully done reading up just yet, will chip in once finished
Do you agree to lim me then rat then peta in that order and protect adorable? Y/N

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 9:26 am

In post 1800, Adorable wrote: I prefer to elim scum and when you say it like this, it makes me conflicted and worried the flip will be a miss. wgeurts is going to be protected by the mushroom tonight and I'll have to protect someone else.

Which one of you wgeurts HPE do you think could possibly be scum?

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 10:29 am

Okay.

Cerbs and HPE come across as incredibly unpartnered, imo. Look at 228, for example. Cerbs tosses a casual buzzword at HPE before disagreeing with HPE's sentiment that my undermining of my own read ability itt is weird to then throw shade about HPE's ability.

In post 228, Cerberus v666 wrote: I don't know you, but are you someone who just sheeps people who project confidence more so than those who actually admit that people are bad at solving games?

He casually drops beetlejuicing again in 233 and then asks an empty question about its playstyle. 'Sure,' you say, ' That looks like traditional distancing.' Except it doesn't. It looks like fake solving, sure, but it's awkward in the exact wrong way to be S/S. It's not "Look we're interacting we're not scum!" awkward it's incredibly indirect shade that doesn't give cerbs any credit or positive optics when/if HPE flips scum. And at this point in the thread it was a very reasonable expectation HPE may have ended up the D1 lim.

In post 245, Cerberus v666 wrote:
In post 239, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
In post 232, wgeurts wrote: Porkens is being useless, but that's unfortunately something people do as town as well as scum. So I need more information. Why aren't you voting Porkens over Fate, as he's not exactly giving much either? @HPE
Because this one very much wants Fate to start talking considering they've provided even less than Porkens has. You ARE still on my list, but this one would really like these two to get to generating content, Fate especially.

In post 233, Cerberus v666 wrote: I would appreciate a response to my question about who you are and how you do the mafia things!
If this one is going to sheep, it tries to sheep people it agrees with and trusts, and confidence doesn't usually have much to do with that, it thinks.
HPE, is there anyone in this game who you are not currently suspicious of, and why? I appreciate a focus on scum, but also, like, identifying town is important.

And okay, then - in that case, what exactly was the problem you had with someone stating their reads are unreliable? Can you walk me through that reasoning, if the confidence someone projects doesn't have much to do with it?

This is something that stuck out to me in Cerbs' ISO because of the buddying aimed at me. This is very indirect to be a bus attempt and wouldn't have netted any cred at all, but clearly cerbs wants people to take a closer look at HPE. HPE, notably awkward and presumably incredibly easy to mislim based on playstyle issues.

I can continue in this vein for quite some time, but cerbs was pretty consistently backseating the HPE push by just passively supporting wgeurts' efforts and was never doing enough to really be seen as the one pushing HPE.

In the reverse, HPE was like, the only one who didn't read the writing on the wall that cerbs was dying yesterday. Like...

In post 1611, HighPrincessErinys wrote: If Cerb flips scum this one will eat a chair.

Is that what solo scum seeing their partner getting burned posts? I don't think so.

Also Also, if HPE scum we have:

EN Tracker
Motion Detector that can MAYBE hit a single member of the scumteam
2 Shot Rolestopper
Loved Bodyguard
4 VT

*doc*
*public rolestopper*

vs

3shot rb/rc
???

and I don't see anything that fills that ??? that doesn't either invalidate large portions of the setup.

Also also also, ScumHPE explicitly chose to inno wgeurts instead of anyone else today.

To borrow a turn of phrase, If HPE flips scum I'll eat a chair.

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 10:44 am

I agree that I think the game is solved and am ramming that solve down people’s throats. In other news, cows eat grass.

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 10:50 am

In post 1804, Adorable wrote:
In post 1801, Jingle wrote:
In post 1800, Adorable wrote: I prefer to elim scum and when you say it like this, it makes me conflicted and worried the flip will be a miss. wgeurts is going to be protected by the mushroom tonight and I'll have to protect someone else.
Which one of you wgeurts HPE do you think could possibly be scum?
HPE

Quoting to ping. Do you agree to protect wgeurts and eliminate me then rat then peta, in that order?

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 11:16 am

There are worlds in which you either holster or one shot sman through a protect to indict someone who is not you. In those worlds, radrat, the player who holstered a protection on the claimed investigator who was then immediately killed dies. I don’t trust town to not fuck things up completely, so we go with the very simple plan of kill jingle, kill rat, kill peta. There is no room for interpretation or reevaluation once I’m gone and can’t respond anymore. Do you want to dispute that the plan works? Do you want to dispute the town status of any of my town core? Do you want to do literally anything other than cast shade at a plan you yourself profess faith in? No?

Okay. Then I’m going to continue advocating my plan in which I get limmed first and you have no input.

Jingle · Sat May 13, 2023 2:30 pm

In post 1816, HighPrincessErinys wrote: see what happens with my track, etc.

There is no see what happens with your track. It is potentially viable that a scum peta can fuck with the track results given a town radrat world.

Just waiting on wgeurts now.

Jingle · Sun May 14, 2023 5:08 am

In post 1784, Jingle wrote:
In post 1740, petapan wrote: wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts.

Plan for reference

VOTE: jingle

Don’t deviate, lim rat tomorrow.

Jingle · Sun May 14, 2023 6:13 am

In post 1784, Jingle wrote:
In post 1763, Jingle wrote:
Like... legitimately fine with being the lim today, but explicitly it's RR tomorrow and peta after that. No deviations no reevaluations. Just go for it. If the locktown agree I'll self vote right now to mitigate the paranoia.

In post 1740, petapan wrote: wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts. (you can shuffle the latter two if you have a different comfort level just firm it up before ending the day)

Jingle · Sun May 14, 2023 6:16 am

In post 1826, Jingle wrote:
wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts.

Jingle · Sun May 14, 2023 6:49 am

In post 1827, Jingle wrote:
In post 1826, Jingle wrote:
wgeurts protects adorable, adorable protects HPE, RR protects wgeurts.

This is the NA plan. I haven't been suitably consistent and that's my b for being busy IRL and not paying enough attention while fighting back against RR's inane pushback on the plan, but this is what you do. RR pushing back on the plan is 100% scum motivated sowing of confusion to prevent an autowin for town here, as evidenced by the sheer inane bullshit they've been pushing. Like, it should have been obvious I didn't intend to wiggle out of this but they inflated the game by pages trying to push that angle, all in the name of sowing confusion.